ESRI says we need more "progressive" taxes lol

ThunbergsAreGo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Taxation has moved from wealth onto the backs of the working classes, particularly the middle classes, this is a common outcome from so called free market policies globally, which includes Ireland. Another element of these ideologies is to attack the welfare classes and the public sector as a whole, a perfect diverging tactic. All of these tactics have helped lead us into a period of rapid growth of wealth, but also a rapid growth in wealth inequality, which is now putting all lives at risk, including the wealthy themselves

Haven't studies shown Ireland as opposed to most countries has seen a large drop in income inequality over the last 20 years

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/1119/1179134-ireland-income-inequality/

shesty

Really what we want is far better services for our taxes, rather than tax changes.
We need to deliver that message strongly to the powers that be....

Wanderer78

ThunbergsAreGo wrote:

Haven't studies shown Ireland as opposed to most countries has seen a large drop in income inequality over the last 20 years

I disagree to some degree with such studies, our collapsing housing situation is showing a significant rise in wealth inequality is currently underway, and covid is proving that younger generations are in serious trouble for many reasons, obviously housing being one of the main issues, but also the fact, most are stuck in relatively low paid and precarious employment, this wont end well for us all!

Wanderer78

shesty wrote:

Really what we want is far better services for our taxes, rather than tax changes. We need to deliver that message strongly to the powers that be....

Absolutely, covid has also proven yet again, our public services, particularly our health system, is diabolical and hemorrhaging money, but will we truly change this post covid!

tails_naf

Deleted User wrote: »

Another month another thread kept going by people that dont think 300k public servants contribute anything or pay taxes

Really great content

The public service do contribute, but they are way too fat in many areas. Sure, some of the jobs are not amazingly well paid, but we have huge black holes in government spend, we throw another billion in every year or so, and nothing improves..... Not value for money, and it stings anyone paying lots of tax. I would happily keep paying what I am if I got value for money. I use close to zero services on a yearly basis, especially being rural - sure roads, but believe me, out this way, nada is happening there either, education for the kids, also mediocre at best, no sign during lockdown though. The one service I needed recently (health) is such a shambles I had to go private.... Accountability would be nice

Mr. teddywinkles

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Haven't studies shown Ireland as opposed to most countries has seen a large drop in income inequality over the last 20 years

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/1119/1179134-ireland-income-inequality/

Did they take the recession into account in that analysis?

RandomViewer

Mules wrote: »

You'd need to tax social welfare too to get around that.

You remove all disposable income from roughly 60% of the population, nobody has money to buy what you do, no job for you,

Fred Cryton

shesty wrote: »

Really what we want is far better services for our taxes, rather than tax changes.
We need to deliver that message strongly to the powers that be....

No, what we need above all else is get marginal taxes in line with other countries. Then the public sector need to make do with whatever the resulting revenue is.



Is there a reason Irish people are subject to a special higher rate of tax compared to people from other countries? Are we a special people who need to pay a bit more in taxes for some reason?

Wanderer78

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, what we need above all else is get marginal taxes in line with other countries. Then the public sector need to make do with whatever the resulting revenue is.



Is there a reason Irish people are subject to a special higher rate of tax compared to people from other countries? Are we a special people who need to pay a bit more in taxes for some reason?

our public service issues are far more complex than just taxation, but the general public can no longer take more of this requirement to run our country, we have to start moving taxation back towards wealth, and theres clearly something fundamentally going wrong in regards the running of our critical public services. if we go for cutting critical public sector budgets yet again, we re simply screwed, this approach has failed us before, over and over, why do we keep thinking this method will eventually work!!!!

fliball123

DubInMeath wrote: »

Money is how we pay for things, really more than how you live. You can earn a fortune but choose to live frugally, or you can earn a standard wage, (or even more or less) and live a reasonable life with the necessities and some nice extras, or you can buy stuff you don't really need because you think that it shows you have some measure of success.

Being on the dole gives you none of that despite what some people would have you believe, you basically won't starve if you can keep a roof over your head.

Personally having put myself through two degrees at night, in order to put me in a position where I earn a rather good wage with excellent conditions, I don't have an issue with my taxes being spent on public services etc.

Yeah pay for things like housing food water ye know the essentials you actually need to live. Dole is competing with low paying jobs here its the added benfits on top of the head line rates that make it less attractive to get up and work.

Fair play to you for bettering yourself I would rather my tax money pays for a better service than the p1ss poor services we have at the moment, so while you dont have an issue with this, I do. There is too much money going into welfare and public sector and both areas are full of waste

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote: »

Yeah pay for things like housing food water ye know the essentials you actually need to live. Dole is competing with low paying jobs here its the added benfits on top of the head line rates that make it less attractive to get up and work.

Fair play to you for bettering yourself I would rather my tax money pays p1ss poor services so while you dont have an issue I do. There is too much money going into welfare and public sector and both areas are full of waste

we do not live on a planet of equal opportunities, we probably never will! reminder, as soon as the wee virus rocked into town, newly 'unemployed' folks found themselves on the dole, this was almost immediately increased to almost double the normal rate for many, why? your tax money does not directly go towards these services, it is used to service the debts that are required to run them!

Murph85

Time for welfare reform, they dont bloody vote, they dont contribute anything other than vat, they are vat payers with their free money. Disgusted at this country as usual...

Honestly, that's where they need to start. The country womt go near water charges again , wont touch lpt or do anything meaningful with it. Has ridiculous amounts outside tax net. Vat already very high, the w3% rate. Other than the usual budget suspects, that raise a pittance additionally in the scheme of things when increased every year. How the hell do they sort this, when they believe nothing should ever be fundamentally changed, just tinkered around the edges for optics ? I wonder at what point, the debt situation becomes unsustainable again. Then will we get some mercy due to the unprecedented covid situation being partially responsible...

But outrageous taxation and spending policy and the very poor handling of covid here , which the government is responsible for, are the primary reasons....

RandomViewer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we do not live on a planet of equal opportunities, we probably never will! reminder, as soon as the wee virus rocked into town, newly 'unemployed' folks found themselves on the dole, this was almost immediately increased to almost double the normal rate for many, why? your tax money does not directly go towards these services, it is used to service the debts that are required to run them!

PUP was an indirect bailout for the banks again,
Don't know if this is true but I was told if 50% of loan payments were missed for one month the banks would collapse

Wanderer78

RandomViewer wrote: »

PUP was an indirect bailout for the banks again,
Don't know if this is true but I was told if 50% of loan payments were missed for one month the banks would collapse

indirectly, yes, as some of this money would indeed have been used, and still is, to service debts, but the important question is, where did the pup money come from? yes, if this didnt occur, there is a possibility our banks may have collapsed, we simply dont know, but our banks are not yet out of the water!

RandomViewer

There seems to be a bit of irony in the ones complaining about HAP payments are the actual landlords benefitting from the payments,

Galwayguy35

Its reducing the welfare spend in budgets they should be doing not increasing it and making sure the money goes to those who really need it.

A complete reform of the HSE as well because the €20 billion they get doesn't seem to be delivering a service thats fit for purpose.

Economics101

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Did they take the recession into account in that analysis?

You refer to studies of income inequality. The answer is "yes": inequality remained unchanged or may have decreased slightly in the great recession of 2009-12. Very often inequality is increased in booms rather than recessions.

Wealth inequality is very difficult to measure consistently. For example a private sector employee may have substantial financial assets in the form of a personal (defined contribution) pension fund. A person with a defined benefit fund will not be recorded as "owning" a portion of his/her company pension fund. And a public sector employee who may have a generous secure pension which is technically unfunded, will be income-rich but apparently wealth-poor.

More taxes...

God forbid they'd ever tackle the issue of Mary Mc pulling e700 a week out of Welfare.

When you incentive people for having kids, by giving them increased payments and pushing them up the social housing lists you create an ever growing situation.

Mary has 5 kids before 25... they grow up and move out and another 5 are pulling e700 and getting a social house and low and behold after twenty years the issue is 4 times bigger.

We're only further compounding and adding to that with this joke of DP system.
When they leave the centres they're already in the welfare system so they move on HAP/Housing lists and get the increased rates.

So we keep finding ways of adding and multiplying people who cost us huge chunks of tax, yet the solution is more tax instead of weeding out the sponges in society and seeing the benefits in the next twenty years.

RandomViewer

gilberto_eire wrote: »

More taxes...

God forbid they'd ever tackle the issue of Mary Mc pulling e700 a week out of Welfare.

When you incentive people for having kids, by giving them increased payments and pushing them up the social housing lists you create an ever growing situation.

Mary has 5 kids before 25... they grow up and move out and another 5 are pulling e700 and getting a social house and low and behold after twenty years the issue is 4 times bigger.

We're only further compounding and adding to that with this joke of DP system.
When they leave the centres they're already in the welfare system so they move on HAP/Housing lists and get the increased rates.

So we keep finding ways of adding and multiplying people who cost us huge chunks of tax, yet the solution is more tax instead of weeding out the sponges in society and seeing the benefits in the next twenty years.

€203 plus €29 for each child, that's not €700, they weren't immaculate conceptions, other countries get the fathers to pay child support but here we don't want to do that,

RandomViewer

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Its reducing the welfare spend in budgets they should be doing not increasing it and making sure the money goes to those who really need it.

A complete reform of the HSE as well because the €20 billion they get doesn't seem to be delivering a service thats fit for purpose.

We've consultants getting paid from the public purse but not seeing any public patients, we've got hospitals paying half a million a year for taxis to move patients from one part of the hospital campus to another, we've people in clerical positions whose job hasn't actually existed since 1994

Antares35

RandomViewer wrote: »

€203 plus €29 for each child, that's not €700, they weren't immaculate conceptions, other countries get the fathers to pay child support but here we don't want to do that,

Don't forget the 700 per month child benefit.

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

€203 plus €29 for each child, that's not €700, they weren't immaculate conceptions, other countries get the fathers to pay child support but here we don't want to do that,

Wrong.

You're not even close.

For starters the personal rate is only that, it's also not e29 per child. Its e45 for a child over 12 alone.

Also you cant make e600 or e700 from Jobseekers. But if one of these poor lone parents ends up with a disabled child... we pay them a second personal rate, plus Domicilary Care plus respite care grant plus Child Benefit.

Apparently despite the fact you could be paying a lone parent for being that, you also pay them for looking after that same "disabled" child.... and trust me all of those dregs in our society know all about this and have disabled kids(or partner if they're in a relationship - Carers and Disability Allowance), that way they both get full personal rates and fully for each child instead of splitting it)

Wanderer78

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Its reducing the welfare spend in budgets they should be doing not increasing it and making sure the money goes to those who really need it.

A complete reform of the HSE as well because the €20 billion they get doesn't seem to be delivering a service thats fit for purpose.

once again, by reducing welfare payments, we reduce the money supply in the economy, as most, if not all welfare money would be spent into the economy upon receiving it. this causes an increase in the velocity of the money supply, as this money is used in transactions, increasing economic activities. most of this money would be spent, and not saved or used to service debts, which reduce the velocity of the supply, therefore reduce economic activities. who is the judge of whether those that receive payments are worthy or not?

yes, there are serious questions to be asked post covid, about our health system, money is simply vanishing within the system, resulting in absolutely shambolic outcomes, but i suspect, very little will actually change post covid here

Wanderer78

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Wrong.

You're not even close.

For starters the personal rate is only that, it's also not e29 per child. Its e45 for a child over 12 alone.

Also you cant make e600 or e700 from Jobseekers. But if one of these poor lone parents ends up with a disabled child... we pay them a second personal rate, plus Domicilary Care plus respite care grant plus Child Benefit.

Apparently despite the fact you could be paying a lone parent for being that, you also pay them for looking after that same "disabled" child.... and trust me all of those dregs in our society know all about this and have disabled kids(or partner if they're in a relationship - Carers and Disability Allowance), that way they both get full personal rates and fully for each child instead of splitting it)

complex psychological issues and disorders are in fact one of the main causes of long term unemployment

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, by reducing welfare payments, we reduce the money supply in the economy, as most, if not all welfare money would be spent into the economy upon receiving it. this causes an increase in the velocity of the money supply, as this money is used in transactions, increasing economic activities. most of this money would be spent, and not saved or used to service debts, which reduce the velocity of the supply, therefore reduce economic activities. who is the judge of whether those that receive payments are worthy or not?

yes, there are serious questions to be asked post covid, about our health system, money is simply vanishing within the system, resulting in absolutely shambolic outcomes, but i suspect, very little will actually change post covid here

Excellent post.

RandomViewer

Antares35 wrote: »

Don't forget the 700 per month child benefit.

Child benefit is paid to all irrespective of income, its universal, Redacted wife even gets it

B2021M

RandomViewer wrote: »

€203 plus €29 for each child, that's not €700, they weren't immaculate conceptions, other countries get the fathers to pay child support but here we don't want to do that,

And you think most of the fathers are working?

RandomViewer

B2021M wrote: »

And you think most of the fathers are working?

Yes, I do, long term unemployed is around 35k and if you deduct our indigenous ethnic group that falls to about 20k,

Antares35

RandomViewer wrote: »

Child benefit is paid to all irrespective of income, its universal, Redacted wife even gets it

Never said otherwise, I was responding to a post that implied they only get welfare plus an increase per child. Just because employed people get it doesn't negate the fact that unemployed also do.

B2021M

RandomViewer wrote: »

Yes, I do, long term unemployed is around 35k and if you deduct our indigenous ethnic group that falls to about 20k,

Ok but maybe they dont earn enough to pay support of any meaningful amount?