ESRI says we need more "progressive" taxes lol

iColdFusion

Antares35 wrote: »

It wouldn't have happened anyway. They've just got a handy excuse now.

Much like the previous promises of abolishing the "temporary tax" that is the USC.
I really don't understand how political parties cant be held legally accountable for the promises they make pre-election, its fraud on the general public really unless there is a legitimate global pandemic or similar that couldn't have been foreseen.

fliball123

iColdFusion wrote: »

Much like the previous promises of abolishing the "temporary tax" that is the USC.
I really don't understand how political parties cant be held legally accountable for the promises they make pre-election, its fraud on the general public really unless there is a legitimate global pandemic or similar that couldn't have been foreseen.

The only fly in your ointment is the fact that they are paying pay rises in the public sector while there is a global pandemic, funny how that works give everyone some money back via lessening the tax burden on workers - No we cant afford it as we are in the pandemic. Pay ourselves in the public sector more money - No bother as we are worth it. See how that works.

timmyntc

Geuze wrote: »

The UK do not have a more valuable currency than the euro.

1GBP = 1.16 EUR

Is that not a more valuable currency right there?

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

The only fly in your ointment is the fact that they are paying pay rises in the public sector while there is a global pandemic, funny how that works give everyone some money back via lessening the tax burden on workers - No we cant afford it as we are in the pandemic. Pay ourselves in the public sector more money - No bother as we are worth it. See how that works.

PS pay rise
2020 = 2%, final pay change under the PSSA
2021 = 1%
2022 = 1%


It seems you suggest that private sector wages are flat?

Let me check:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32020finalq42020preliminaryestimates/


Average weekly earnings are up 7.5%, although I suspect this may be due to compositional effects.


"Other features of the preliminary results for Q4 2020 include:

• Average hourly earnings increased by 5.5% between Q4 2019 and Q4 2020, rising from €24.23 to €25.56. See Table 2.
• Average weekly paid hours increased by 1.8% between Q4 2019 and Q4 2020, from 32.5 to 33.1. See Table 3.
• Average hourly total labour costs were €27.93 in the fourth quarter of 2020, a decrease of 0.9% from the value of €28.19 one year previously. See Table 6c.
• Seasonally adjusted average weekly earnings in Q4 2020 were €826.86, an increase of 1.9% from the previous quarter. See Table 4.
• Average weekly earnings increased by 3.4% across the public sector and by 8.5% across the private sector in the year to Q4 2020. See Tables 1 and 8a.
• The job vacancy rate at the end of Q4 2020 was 0.9%, which remained unchanged from 0.9% at the end of Q4 2019. See Table 7c.

Geuze

timmyntc wrote: »

1GBP = 1.16 EUR

Is that not a more valuable currency right there?

Which is longer?

1 mile = 1.6km

1m = 1000mm


Look at the equal sign!!!! They are equal.


I have been testing my kids with this. I say:

"One pound equals 10 Swedish krone, which currency is stronger?"

I am trying to teach them to not get misled.

Geuze

timmyntc wrote: »

1GBP = 1.16 EUR

Is that not a more valuable currency right there?

Over time, the GBP has lost value.

See here:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/euro_reference_exchange_rates/html/eurofxref-graph-gbp.en.html



It is only possible to say a currency is stronger/weaker, if you look at its value over time.

Looking at a snapshot, looking at the spot rate today, doesn't tell us anything.

timmyntc

Geuze wrote: »

Which is longer?

1 mile = 1.6km

1m = 1000mm


Look at the equal sign!!!! They are equal.

Christ have mercy - have you never heard of the concept of one currency being "stronger" than another? Because being more valuable is the same thing.

1 of currency A is worth more than 1 of currency B. It's a fairly widespread concept.

timmyntc

Also the original post referenced the UK currency being "more valuable" in reference to tax bands, which is a completely valid point.

50k GBP has more purchasing power than 50k EUR, the UKs higher rate of tax kicks in at 50K, our proposed new measure would be at 50K EUR (currently its 35K EUR).

Geuze

timmyntc wrote: »

Christ have mercy - have you never heard of the concept of one currency being "stronger" than another? Because being more valuable is the same thing.

1 of currency A is worth more than 1 of currency B. It's a fairly widespread concept.

GBP has fallen over time against the euro.

It used to be 1 euro = 66-70 pence approx

It is now 1 euro = 85-90p approx.


You are focussed on the denomination, that doesn't tell us anything.

Today, the exchange rate is 1 euro = 86p
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/euro_reference_exchange_rates/html/eurofxref-graph-gbp.en.html

Today 1 euro = GBP £ 0.87

That is the exact same as

GBP 1 = euro 1.16



The spot rate does not tell us which is more valuable.

Geuze

timmyntc wrote: »

Also the original post referenced the UK currency being "more valuable" in reference to tax bands, which is a completely valid point.

50k GBP has more purchasing power than 50k EUR, the UKs higher rate of tax kicks in at 50K, our proposed new measure would be at 50K EUR (currently its 35K EUR).

Ah yes, the 40% rate starting at 50k is much better, and more sensible than the 48.5% starting at 36k here.

Although note that NI is 11% or 12% in the UK?

Ms. Newbie18

barry181091 wrote: »

We really should be charging employers more PRSI, along with an increase for employees but the employer portion is low by European standards. We can't have world class services without a comparable tax take, which you can't just take from income tax alone.

What world class services are provided by our government? Our health service is a disgrace, despite the money pumped into it, and it was a disgrace long before Covid hit.

PMBC

And we dont need a police force either. Not to mention planners as the private sector builders can be trusted to do the right thing. Teachers - huh! Sure weren't the children and students teaching themselves at home. We are such a clean nation we dont need street sweepers or refuse collectors.

timmyntc

Geuze wrote: »

Ah yes, the 40% rate starting at 50k is much better, and more sensible than the 48.5% starting at 36k here.

Although note that NI is 11% or 12% in the UK?

NI is 12-14% depending on income, but after USC and PRSI is deducted in Ireland you still pay more tax I think on 50K EUR vs GBP (% wise, not converting currency)

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay rise
2020 = 2%, final pay change under the PSSA
2021 = 1%
2022 = 1%


It seems you suggest that private sector wages are flat?

Let me check:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32020finalq42020preliminaryestimates/


Average weekly earnings are up 7.5%, although I suspect this may be due to compositional effects.


"Other features of the preliminary results for Q4 2020 include:

• Average hourly earnings increased by 5.5% between Q4 2019 and Q4 2020, rising from €24.23 to €25.56. See Table 2.
• Average weekly paid hours increased by 1.8% between Q4 2019 and Q4 2020, from 32.5 to 33.1. See Table 3.
• Average hourly total labour costs were €27.93 in the fourth quarter of 2020, a decrease of 0.9% from the value of €28.19 one year previously. See Table 6c.
• Seasonally adjusted average weekly earnings in Q4 2020 were €826.86, an increase of 1.9% from the previous quarter. See Table 4.
• Average weekly earnings increased by 3.4% across the public sector and by 8.5% across the private sector in the year to Q4 2020. See Tables 1 and 8a.
• The job vacancy rate at the end of Q4 2020 was 0.9%, which remained unchanged from 0.9% at the end of Q4 2019. See Table 7c.

Where did I say Private sector wages were flat?

Have the income tax payer got their pay restoration yet from the last crash ?? NO USC (the so called temp tax is still here) I dont see why public sector should be prioritized first. How much more are we paying now in income tax including USC and PRSI as apposed to before the last crash?

Yet the ERSI are advising to tax more and not one word about public sector pay rises.

Also even with your analysis (and we have had this dance before) the public sector are still 27% ahead on average when it comes to wage. Its all there in the link you provided. So you cant just take increases and base it on that, you have to look at the rate both sectors are already paid.

arctictree

Posters here suggesting the lower paid should pay more tax (which I actually agree with BTW). Can you imagine the **** show in the Dail if a TD suggested this never mind putting it in a budget...

fliball123

PMBC wrote: »

And we dont need a police force either. Not to mention planners as the private sector builders can be trusted to do the right thing. Teachers - huh! Sure weren't the children and students teaching themselves at home. We are such a clean nation we dont need street sweepers or refuse collectors.

Do we need a police force blowing into their own breathalyzers, or manipulating the pulse system to allow friends and family and the odd famous person/politician off penalty points and fines. I wonder how many got fired or even got stopped an increment for that one.

As for planners Children's hospital anyone - that's how the public sector do it, pay the most you can sure the tax payers doesn't mind

As for the absolute nightmare that was the lockdown teachers gave work on seesaw on Monday and were not seen again till Friday when the work was been handed in. It was up to the parents to do the majority of the work with their kids during lockdown. They were hardly that pressed upon and sure even if they were the 1/3rd of a year they have off in paid holidays should be more than enough to pacify them.

Last I checked we have to pay ourselves out of after tax monies for collecting waste, once upon a time that came as a benefit for the income tax you pay.

Calahonda52

Time for water charges to come back, raise 2bn /pa

fliball123

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Time for water charges to come back, raise 2bn /pa

There should be zero tax increases until money is saved via cuts. Our spend has gotten too far out of control and there needs to be a stand taken with successive governments spending/borrowing/wasting billions in our name. This needs to happen before any other tax increases either direct or indirect are taken.

timmyntc

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Time for water charges to come back, raise 2bn /pa

You aren't allowed to tax those on lower incomes, dont you remember

JimmyVik

Allinall wrote: »

"Progressive" in a taxation sense means that those that earn more pay more.

Surely this is a good thing to be aiming for?

It always seems to mean that I pay more and my relatives who never worked a day in their lives get more.

Allinall

JimmyVik wrote: »

It always seems to mean that I pay more and my relatives who never worked a day in their lives get more.

You need to get new relatives, or join the ones you have.

JimmyVik

Chips Lovell wrote: »

When it comes to taxation, it's quite tricky to compare like with like. There's tendency to focus on just income tax rates without taking into account allowances, credits and, the big one, social security contributions. We've a relatively high rate of income tax compared to a lot of countries, but PRSI contributions are fairly low.

According to the latest OECD figures, the tax wedge for the average Irish worker is well below the OECD average.

And that's just the tax on wages. We get off fairly lightly in terms of property and municipal taxes here:

Id like to see charts like that broken into income brackets.
Like a chart each for €10k - €20k earners. €20k - €30k earners and so on.
You wont see that though.

JimmyVik

And another thing that annoys me is people trying to say that PRSI and USC are not income taxes.
I pay them on my income. I have no choice.
Therefore income tax is mentioned it should be all taxes paid on your income you are talking about.

Geuze

arctictree wrote: »

Posters here suggesting the lower paid should pay more tax (which I actually agree with BTW). Can you imagine the **** show in the Dail if a TD suggested this never mind putting it in a budget...

It could be done, in some ways.

Take my parents, they are undertaxed.

There are three tax reliefs that people over 65 get.

For a start, abolish those three tax reliefs, they don't need them.


Next, abolish the PRSI exemption, it's about 350pw / 18k?

Then re-introduce the PRSI allowance, but keep it small, say 100 pw.

That means everybody pays PRSI on all wages over 100 pw.

Next, raise the wage at which point PRSI credits start, from 38 pw to 100 pw.

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

And another thing that annoys me is people trying to say that PRSI and USC are not income taxes.
I pay them on my income. I have no choice.
Therefore income tax is mentioned it should be all taxes paid on your income you are talking about.

USC is an income tax, there is no debate about that.

There is some debate about PRSI, that's not black-and-white.

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

Id like to see charts like that broken into income brackets.
Like a chart each for €10k - €20k earners. €20k - €30k earners and so on.
You wont see that though.

Try this:
https://www.oecd.org/tax/taxing-wages-20725124.htm

Click on the map, then there is a dropdown menu of family types.


Also try this:

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AWCOMP&_ga=2.80470807.1607305697.1621609595-1325650167.1613689061

jucko

gibgodsman wrote: »

Can you define the middle class and lower class for me please? I work full time and at this rate I have no idea which I fall into anymore

THIS IS THE TRUTH

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

Id like to see charts like that broken into income brackets.
Like a chart each for €10k - €20k earners. €20k - €30k earners and so on.
You wont see that though.

This may help:

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

B2021M

B2021M wrote: »

My main point was that the public sector is too big and costs too much. Many services could be funded by private capital with proper oversight. People would then pay less overall tax and use that money to purchase services they need or want.

Until they're priced out of it by corporate greed. Why the hell do you think private companies exist? Answer: to make a profit.

The whole point of state owned and state run organisations is to provide a service to those areas where it is unprofitable to do so. What happens when the electricity suppliers decide that the Wesht isn't making them enough money and stop building infrastructure? Or that broadband in Wicklow is too much effort, so they can make do with mobile internet? Or that the schools in Donegal aren't covering teachers' wages so they shut up shop?

The truth of the matter is you're just parroting populist soundbites. When confronted with the reality of the situation, you're changing the goalposts and claiming that's what you were trying to say all along. You didn't really think it all through, did you?

"The public sector is too large!!!".......which parts?
Where would you make the cuts and what would you do to ensure continuity of service in those places where you've made those cuts?
Where would you reinvest the savings made?
Why are you advocating the privatisation of services such as roads, water and schools in one breath, then saying "no not those services, just the public sector at large is too big" in the next?


Have a look at what Thatcher did over in England and tell me that's desirable over here. You claim you want privatisation, but I guarantee you, if it was implemented here you'd want it back in the government fold quicksmart. Especially if you lived in a rural location.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Until they're priced out of it by corporate greed. Why the hell do you think private companies exist? Answer: to make a profit.

The whole point of state owned and state run organisations is to provide a service to those areas where it is unprofitable to do so. What happens when the electricity suppliers decide that the Wesht isn't making them enough money and stop building infrastructure? Or that broadband in Wicklow is too much effort, so they can make do with mobile internet? Or that the schools in Donegal aren't covering teachers' wages so they shut up shop?

The truth of the matter is you're just parroting populist soundbites. When confronted with the reality of the situation, you're changing the goalposts and claiming that's what you were trying to say all along. You didn't really think it all through, did you?

"The public sector is too large!!!".......which parts?
Where would you make the cuts and what would you do to ensure continuity of service in those places where you've made those cuts?
Where would you reinvest the savings made?
Why are you advocating the privatisation of services such as roads, water and schools in one breath, then saying "no not those services, just the public sector at large is too big" in the next?


Have a look at what Thatcher did over in England and tell me that's desirable over here. You claim you want privatisation, but I guarantee you, if it was implemented here you'd want it back in the government fold quicksmart. Especially if you lived in a rural location.

The one only thing good about Thatcher was she was not afraid to go toe to toe with unions, something I wish our spineless self serving politicians would have the stones to do.