ESRI says we need more "progressive" taxes lol

Mr. teddywinkles

What happens when people on moderately paid wages instead of working say fook this. Better off on the scratcher. Then the mass exodus of talent due to high living cost and high taxes.
A bit fooking sad considering the price of rent and buying a house here.

iColdFusion

Deleted User wrote: »

Until they're priced out of it by corporate greed. Why the hell do you think private companies exist? Answer: to make a profit.

The whole point of state owned and state run organisations is to provide a service to those areas where it is unprofitable to do so. What happens when the electricity suppliers decide that the Wesht isn't making them enough money and stop building infrastructure? Or that broadband in Wicklow is too much effort, so they can make do with mobile internet? Or that the schools in Donegal aren't covering teachers' wages so they shut up shop?

The truth of the matter is you're just parroting populist soundbites. When confronted with the reality of the situation, you're changing the goalposts and claiming that's what you were trying to say all along. You didn't really think it all through, did you?

"The public sector is too large!!!".......which parts?
Where would you make the cuts and what would you do to ensure continuity of service in those places where you've made those cuts?
Where would you reinvest the savings made?
Why are you advocating the privatisation of services such as roads, water and schools in one breath, then saying "no not those services, just the public sector at large is too big" in the next?


Have a look at what Thatcher did over in England and tell me that's desirable over here. You claim you want privatisation, but I guarantee you, if it was implemented here you'd want it back in the government fold quicksmart. Especially if you lived in a rural location.

There are two sides to everything though, you say private sector is motivated by greed but that breeds improvements and efficiency, no motivation for the public sector to do anything so crazy!

To be honest as someone living in rural Ireland id take my changes with privitisation, it couldn't really be any worse and there might be some accountability, so potholes might get fixed and roads resurfaced as standard practice instead of the usual "we need to piss away all this money left in budget before the end of the year" council planning :rolleyes:
Lets be honest the government has just thrown a few billion at a private company to sort out rural broadband that they have catastrophically failed to do anything about for years, the ESB do nothing for nothing and Irish Water not any better.

I have no issues with funding front line services but the millions that gets pissed away by public sector middle management is crazy, OPW for instance, full of well payed qualified architects, engineers, QS's etc but tender most of the actual work in these areas to the private sector and then "supervise", grand work if you can get it but seems to define too much of the public sector!

fliball123

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

What happens when people on moderately paid wages instead of working say fook this. Better off on the scratcher. Then the mass exodus of talent due to high living cost and high taxes.
A bit fooking sad considering the price of rent and buying a house here.

Your not wrong there are multiple traps now set up with the way our government have taxes/allownaces lined up. I mean talk about going about the most complicated way of doing something simple.

The current system now has

Welfare competing with low paying jobs. Due to the myriad of allowances and perks given to welfare, why would you get out of bed when you see dossers in the same street as you getting everything handed to them

It has medium paying jobs competing with low paying jobs due to things like FIS and the low rate at which we enter the higher tax bracket.

It also has people on medium to higher income refusing to to O.T as is not worth it with the tax man taking 51%+ of your cash off you.

Could they not just simplify it and make everyone pay something and more importantly the tax you pay should go into a service that you need so say 20% of your tax you pay should follow you and not be used for anyone else, they can use the other 80% for that.

Allinall

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

What happens when people on moderately paid wages instead of working say fook this. Better off on the scratcher. Then the mass exodus of talent due to high living cost and high taxes.
A bit fooking sad considering the price of rent and buying a house here.

The government need to enforce the "seeking" in Job Seekers Allowance"

Stayng on JSA should never be a choice.

Geuze

Allinall wrote: »

The government need to enforce the "seeking" in Job Seekers Allowance"

Stayng on JSA should never be a choice.

Abolish JSA, and offer all on JSA paid work instead.

iColdFusion

Geuze wrote: »

Abolish JSA, and offer all on JSA paid work instead.

They tried that to an extent with the JobBridge scheme back during the crash, employers thought it was great, why bother hiring people when you can get a new unemployed person every 6 months to do the same job for free and buy yourself a new jet ski :pac:

wonski

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Not really, if you do the sums. For example, the chart has the Irish average of income tax a little under 20%. A couple with a combined income of 100,000 (which is a decent haul) will pay around 19% in income tax.

That is clearly not true

Mad_maxx

Property taxes need to rise ,farm land should also be included, it won't though , SF have a good few farmer votes in the border counties and neither FG or FF would go there

Agree with those who say taxes on labour can't go any higher

Ronaldinho

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Property taxes need to rise ,farm land should also be included, it won't though , SF have a good few farmer votes in the border counties and neither FG or FF would go there

Agree with those who say taxes on labour can't go any higher

What's your rationale for including farmland?

DrumSteve

Property taxes may need to rise, but they would really want to start giving us some benefit from paying it as opposed to it going into a black hole.

Also, I see it mentioned that overtime is basically a write off once you hit a certain level. Completely true, state ends up seeing more of it than you do.

Completely pointless doing it.

The lower pay bands definitely need to start being taxed or their needs to be a rise in the minimum wage to bring these workers into the tax net. It's not gonna go down well, but to be honest, the sad fact is it needs to be done.

Geuze

DrumSteve wrote: »

Property taxes may need to rise, but they would really want to start giving us some benefit from paying it as opposed to it going into a black hole.

All LPT goes to local councils.

It is not extra income for them, it replaces previous central Govt grants.

Geuze

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Not really, if you do the sums. For example, the chart has the Irish average of income tax a little under 20%. A couple with a combined income of 100,000 (which is a decent haul) will pay around 19% in income tax.

I will check

70,600 @20% = 14,120
29,400 @40% = 11,760

less tax credits of 3300 + 1650 + 1650 = 6,600

19,280

Yes, you are correct, although USC is excluded.

Geuze

wonski wrote: »

That is clearly not true

It is true.

Mad_maxx

Ronaldinho wrote: »

What's your rationale for including farmland?

most businesses pay rates dont they ?

farm land is an asset , we pay too much income tax on labour and not enough on assets here , eventually this will have to change as otherwise the middle class becoming politically disenfranchised effectively

titan18

Geuze wrote: »

I will check

70,600 @20% = 14,120
29,400 @40% = 11,760

less tax credits of 3300 + 1650 + 1650 = 6,600

19,280

Yes, you are correct, although USC is excluded.

Doesn't include PRSI either. They're all income taxes imo. Never mind then we seem to have a load of taxes after this and anyone earning that amount pretty much pays for any public services they need afterwards (pay for GP, hospital, school fees, childcare etc)

B2021M

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Until they're priced out of it by corporate greed. Why the hell do you think private companies exist? Answer: to make a profit.

The whole point of state owned and state run organisations is to provide a service to those areas where it is unprofitable to do so. What happens when the electricity suppliers decide that the Wesht isn't making them enough money and stop building infrastructure? Or that broadband in Wicklow is too much effort, so they can make do with mobile internet? Or that the schools in Donegal aren't covering teachers' wages so they shut up shop?

The truth of the matter is you're just parroting populist soundbites. When confronted with the reality of the situation, you're changing the goalposts and claiming that's what you were trying to say all along. You didn't really think it all through, did you?

"The public sector is too large!!!".......which parts?
Where would you make the cuts and what would you do to ensure continuity of service in those places where you've made those cuts?
Where would you reinvest the savings made?
Why are you advocating the privatisation of services such as roads, water and schools in one breath, then saying "no not those services, just the public sector at large is too big" in the next?


Have a look at what Thatcher did over in England and tell me that's desirable over here. You claim you want privatisation, but I guarantee you, if it was implemented here you'd want it back in the government fold quicksmart. Especially if you lived in a rural location.

You dont seem to want anyone having an opposite view to you. Plus you also seem to make plenty of assumptions about what i would or wouldnt do!

Thatcher did plenty of good (took on unions for one as others pointed out). Maybe its you that is parroting populism...Thatcher bad, Labour good?

Anyway i accept your point of view and the comments you made are all valid. My belief is that the taxpayer would receive better value for money if these services were tendered and run by private entities where possible. This allows more direct accountability to the people funding the service.

RulesOfNature

Allinall wrote: »

"Progressive" in a taxation sense means that those that earn more pay more.

Surely this is a good thing to be aiming for?

This is the propaganda LOL.

That's not what actually happens.

The scale of wealth stretches to the stratosphere, and whenever politicians raise taxes on low six figure earners, its missing the main people who are massively underpaying. The rich, the insanely rich, does not pay their fair share.

sunshine2018

Property tax has got to be the most unfair tax - I’ve already paid tax on the money I used to buy the house
Just because the value of my house had gone up due to supply and demand it does not mean I am earning any more money. Nothing ‘progressive ‘ about it ! Your private principal residence should be exempt from property tax

RulesOfNature

crossman47 wrote: »

The elephant in the room is that our wealth and property taxes are very low. The property tax has not been touched since it came in. Our so called socialists oppose property and water charges (about the only socialist party anywhere to do so). Capital gain tax is lower than income tax. People want the amount of inheritance that will not be taxed to be raised (from c. 300K in the case of a son or daughter).

Now you're getting it.

Tell me is it a coincidence that the only viable investment vehicle in Ireland is property?

Now tell me how many TDs are landlords, or are invested in real estate?

You are dissuaded from investing into stocks, ETFs or any intangible assets in this country, with incredibly heavy taxes up to 52%. But feel free to put solvency in property - A market already owned by - to no ones surprise - the same people who makes market legislations.

It's almost as if the scam is unraveling in front of everyones eyes but some people refuse to wake up.

yrreg0850

RandomViewer wrote: »

If you are taking home in excess of €100k and need a mortgage you are obviously very poor with money, private insurance should be exclusively private hospitals, 700k on waiting lists for actual ailments not tits or dick enlargements

The powers that be have more or less admitted that private patients using public hospitals are a source of finance to the tune of some millions every year .
This is made up of a levy of €700/800 per day each private patient is charged for a room in a public hospital in spite of being eligible for a free room under their PRSI.

decreds

Huge brain drain on the way.

No one high earning individual in their right mind will tolerate this lunacy. The middle class are paying for everything and receiving nothing in return.

If a huge chunk of the squeezed professionals let's see how the country operates with dole heads and fake refugees claiming every benefit under the sun.

We are quickly approaching a situation where the is no middle class, only dole class, lower class and elites. It seems the government is hell bent on destroying this country.

RulesOfNature

decreds wrote: »

Huge brain drain on the way.

No one high earning individual in their right mind will tolerate this lunacy. The middle class are paying for everything and receiving nothing in return.

If a huge chunk of the squeezed professionals let's see how the country operates with dole heads and fake refugees claiming every benefit under the sun.

We are quickly approaching a situation where the is no middle class, only dole class, lower class and elites. It seems the government is hell bent on destroying this country.

Yep. My peers who graduated in 2020/21 are leaving for Portugal, USA, Australia and even the UK. Engineers, computer scientists, top notch intellectuals. There's f*ck all incentive to stay here. I'm headed to Berlin myself in 3 months, and taking all my money with me.

Mad_maxx

sunshine2018 wrote: »

Property tax has got to be the most unfair tax - I’ve already paid tax on the money I used to buy the house
Just because the value of my house had gone up due to supply and demand it does not mean I am earning any more money. Nothing ‘progressive ‘ about it ! Your private principal residence should be exempt from property tax

its not in the USA , the most free market country on earth

Im deeply anti socialist but have no issue with property taxes , property taxes are a very stable source of revenue

Mad_maxx

RulesOfNature wrote: »

Now you're getting it.

Tell me is it a coincidence that the only viable investment vehicle in Ireland is property?

Now tell me how many TDs are landlords, or are invested in real estate?

You are dissuaded from investing into stocks, ETFs or any intangible assets in this country, with incredibly heavy taxes up to 52%. But feel free to put solvency in property - A market already owned by - to no ones surprise - the same people who makes market legislations.

It's almost as if the scam is unraveling in front of everyones eyes but some people refuse to wake up.

you are of course correct re_ investing in ETF,s etc but the left here view people who invest in the markets as " rich " and would not be in favour of making such investing more favourable

Mr. teddywinkles

Traumadoc wrote: »

GRRRRR..........get some one else to pay.

For a change it would be nice. Wages aren't taking leap n bound on the increase front. Pretty stagnant. So if you keep increasing taxes. Less to spend in economy. Especially since most of it has been closed for long time now. Also risk of increased inflation coupled with higher prices for commodities due to shortage. Such a bad time for tax increases Brexit still to take real effect. But hey let's shaft the middle class some more.

sunshine2018

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its not in the USA , the most free market country on earth

Im deeply anti socialist but have no issue with property taxes , property taxes are a very stable source of revenue

But do you consider it a fair tax ?
If I buy my house for 300k and it goes up in value I can’t realise that value I have to have somewhere to live - my income hasn’t gone up proportionally
It’s just another tax on the middle

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Im deeply anti socialist but have no issue with property taxes , property taxes are a very stable source of revenue

Why, out of interest? Yes socialist societies in the past have been evil, but that doesn't make everything to do with socialism evil. In the same way that capitalism has some hallmarks of socialism, and that doesn't make it (capitalism) inherently evil.

In an ideal world, true Socialism would be good. We don't live on one, unfortunately. Dictators and fascists have hidden behind the concept of Socialism and equality while lining their pockets and f**king everybody else over for years. We've never actually seen a true socialist society in action.

You, yourself, and society at large have benefitted greatly from socialism and socialist policies for as long as you've been alive. The whole concept of taxation and representation is built upon the foundation that everybody chips in for the greater good, whether that benefits them as an individual or not. Including your beloved property tax.

Police, firefighting, roads, hospitals, social welfare, schools, libraries, museums, galleries, parks, beaches........all paid for through socialist policies. I presume you don't use any of these amenities, you being deeply anti-socialist and all?

Mr. teddywinkles

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why, out of interest? Yes socialist societies in the past have been evil, but that doesn't make everything to do with socialism evil. In the same way that capitalism has some hallmarks of socialism, and that doesn't make it (capitalism) inherently evil.

In an ideal world, true Socialism would be good. We don't live on one, unfortunately. Dictators and fascists have hidden behind the concept of Socialism and equality while lining their pockets and f**king everybody else over for years. We've never actually seen a true socialist society in action.

You, yourself, and society at large have benefitted greatly from socialism and socialist policies for as long as you've been alive. The whole concept of taxation and representation is built upon the foundation that everybody chips in for the greater good, whether that benefits them as an individual or not. Including your beloved property tax.

Police, firefighting, roads, hospitals, social welfare, schools, libraries, museums, galleries, parks, beaches........all paid for through socialist policies. I presume you don't use any of these amenities, you being deeply anti-socialist and all?

Its disproportionate taxation that's the problem.
One group of people paying for it all.
Coupled with waste and a large amount of it.
Hope not to use the fire brigade any time soon. Or use a prison cell any time some. Justice system needs looking at.
A guy walking round 50 plus convictions. Somethings not right there.
Roads are in a dire state of repair outside the capital.
Please pray tell has the last time anyone has been in a library with the advent of the internet. Meusems are good.
Hospitals and healthcare in general in bad state of reform. Long waiting lists.
Schools.
Most kids have been home schooled for the last year with teachers still paid in full.
Antiquated rote learning in most subjects too.
Welfare is needed when people hit hard times but totalling taken advantage of here to the point it has lost it purpose in the first place.
Oh yea and did I read right, negative interest rates on savings accounts for savers by certain banks
No wonder banks are leaving the market.

Mad_maxx

sunshine2018 wrote: »

But do you consider it a fair tax ?
If I buy my house for 300k and it goes up in value I can’t realise that value I have to have somewhere to live - my income hasn’t gone up proportionally
It’s just another tax on the middle

well " fair " is utterly subjective but Yes i consider it a reasonable tax , a home is an asset

Mr. teddywinkles

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well " fair " is utterly subjective but Yes i consider it a reasonable tax , a home is an asset

Asset because the powers that be made it one. Not a home. People usually spruce their home up not for asset value but for nice environment to live or raise kids.