Lose weight or build muscle first?

OtterLM

Many thanks for your time - newbie to this area.

I'm 45 and the few lockdown beers have generously handed me a small beer gut.

I haven't a lot of muscle and I'd like to do some weight training to add some (don't need to be Arnie).

What I'm wondering is should I try to cut the fat first before increasing calories when weight training?

Or should I adjust the diet, go training and use the additional muscle (fingers crossed!) to cut the fat after?

Arbuckle

OtterLM wrote: »

Many thanks for your time - newbie to this area.

I'm 45 and the few lockdown beers have generously handed me a small beer gut.

I haven't a lot of muscle and I'd like to do some weight training to add some (don't need to be Arnie).

What I'm wondering is should I try to cut the fat first before increasing calories when weight training?

Or should I adjust the diet, go training and use the additional muscle (fingers crossed!) to cut the fat after?

Currently in the middle of it. I'm cutting weight since January went from 17.2 to 14.6 current weight.

I'm jogging cut the weight and when I trim ill start lifting weight.

Black Sheep

OtterLM wrote: »

Many thanks for your time - newbie to this area.

I'm 45 and the few lockdown beers have generously handed me a small beer gut.

I haven't a lot of muscle and I'd like to do some weight training to add some (don't need to be Arnie).

What I'm wondering is should I try to cut the fat first before increasing calories when weight training?

Or should I adjust the diet, go training and use the additional muscle (fingers crossed!) to cut the fat after?

If you have had some relatively modest weight gain during lockdown and you are currently not carrying much muscle mass then I would suggest trying to get some consistent training under your belt and then evaluating in a couple of months.

If your focus is body recomposition I.e more muscle and less fat, then start now, you are not a candidate for requiring further weight loss before starting.

If you’re not carrying much muscle mass then you will not necessarily get a better physique if you try to lean out through diet. Spot dieting specific areas does not really work, and usually added muscle mass addresses some of the aesthetic shortfalls that people tend to solely blame on body fat percentages.

It’s actually quite possible / likely that you might adjust your diet, train consistently and stay the same weight but look much better.

I don’t know what your intended approach to training is, but there is a decent thread in the forum on beginner strength programs that would be a place to start.

With regard to diet, before you start making changes to what you are eating to support any training you’re doing, just be sure that you know what you’re doing. Be clear before you adjust your calorie intake what you currently take in, what is your maintenance, and go from there. You may already be in a surplus some days etc. I only mention this in case you intended to start chugging mass gainer shakes into yourself and assume that was the thing to do.

atilladehun

I would second the strength training first approach. Based on my own personal experience.

Being stronger is going to make you better at any other exercise you do.

Strength training, especially at the start, uses calories as you train and recover anyway. Many people just naturally lose a bit of fat as they start anyway. (Calorie consumption dependent)

If you go on holidays for a couple of weeks you can pick up where you left off easy enough. You can probably even absorb a couple of extra calories. If you spend a couple of months trying to cut calories and then put it back on on a holiday or something you may feel like your back at sq 1, or worse.

Getting stronger, learning to lift, adding weight to the bar, even if it's slowly can be fun. Watching your calories isn't, or at least no one has shown me a fun way of doing it yet.

Dtp1979

Eat cleaner
Start lifting weights.
The end

PMBC

What would a home-made gym for weights look like or is that possible?

El_Duderino 09

If you're not an athlete or looking to do anything extreme, then why not do both at the same time?

Have a calorie deficit and exercise and make sure to eat enough protein to grow the muscles. It might not be the fastest way to either lose weight (because you're also gaining "weight" through a bit of muscle) or the fastest way to gain muscle (because you're in calorie deficit and not on an athlete muscle gain diet). But surely its the fastest way to do both things if you want to lose weight and build muscle.

If you're not used to training at 45, then it will take time. like 6 months or a year to get your ligaments and muscles time to be able to train regularly without being sore for days between training, or just getting injured. And better to start now and do the calorie deficit at the same time.

SortingYouOut

Build muscle. The more muscle you have, the more calories you require, even at rest. You'll lose the fat by gaining muscle, if you eat well too.

Cill94

PMBC wrote: »

What would a home-made gym for weights look like or is that possible?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057223751&page=11

Very possible

OtterLM

Can I just thank everyone for the excellent replies, lots of food for thought and I think some really great pointers on the way to begin.

As someone who has only posted a few times on Boards I'm very impressed with the detail of the replies and appreciative of all the help!

Dtp1979

OtterLM wrote: »

Can I just thank everyone for the excellent replies, lots of food for thought and I think some really great pointers on the way to begin.

As someone who has only posted a few times on Boards I'm very impressed with the detail of the replies and appreciative of all the help!

Best of luck. Let us know how you get on. There’s a fitness logs forum on here too if you want to use that. It’s a good way of keeping yourself on track and plenty of helpful advice given if you’re stuck.

paw patrol

OtterLM wrote: »

Many thanks for your time - newbie to this area.

I'm 45 and the few lockdown beers have generously handed me a small beer gut.

I haven't a lot of muscle and I'd like to do some weight training to add some (don't need to be Arnie).

What I'm wondering is should I try to cut the fat first before increasing calories when weight training?

Or should I adjust the diet, go training and use the additional muscle (fingers crossed!) to cut the fat after?

personally I'd lose the weight over trying to build muscle.
If you are new to lifting weight the new stimulus will build muscle anyway even if you are eating in a deficit

But the caveat to that is trying too much too soon, I'd recommend cleaning up your diet first as in food quality and getting into a routine and practice of hitting training sessions/gym before I'd worry about extra stuff like measuring calories.

You could find that improved food quality ,normal eating and training is enough to get you to where you want to be without the need to measure calories and the rest which isnt always necessary.

Just make sure you have a plan for training - not just random workouts.
And that once you get used to lifting that the plan has scope for improvement. In simple terms that as you get better you can make changes (in simple terms this will be extra reps at a weight or more weight ) to keep challenging yourself.

El_Duderino 09

If OP is just a normal guy who wants to lose a few KG and tone up a bit of muscle (not start doing body building or get as light as possible) then what are the arguments against doing both a moderate calorie deficit and doing some muscle training at the same time?

new2tri19

I'd get into a habit of training first , when your training your most likely to make good choices imo . If you just do a work out your less likely to ruin it eating bad is my experience.
Also if your eating less you might not have the energy to train .
One thing I've had to watch is eating enough to sustain training .I think a mixture of cardio and weights works well for losing weight and building muscle . Just don't overtrain , take some easy days .

Dtp1979

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If OP is just a normal guy who wants to lose a few KG and tone up a bit of muscle (not start doing body building or get as light as possible) then what are the arguments against doing both a moderate calorie deficit and doing some muscle training at the same time?

No argument here chief

Black Sheep

I think my mention of calories and knowing where you are might have been misinterpreted slightly.

I agree that first, normalise training and activity. At this stage probably eliminating the worst food choices and eating habits you have might go a long way. Next stage would be eating whole foods and protein at every meal. Then evaluate where you are.

What I was getting at in cautioning around the idea of eating to support your training by means of a calorie surplus is that before you do that (or indeed you eat in a deficit) you do at that point need to know your current intake and do a little maths around what is maintenance for you. But I don’t think this is necessary as a first step.

Mellor

OtterLM wrote: »

I'm 45 and the few lockdown beers have generously handed me a small beer gut.

Whatever approach you do, fat first, muscle first or both together. You'll need a handle on your diet. The think that jumped out at me was the blame on the beers. Beer doesn't cause a beer belly. It came from excess calories, the majority of which were almost certainly food.

atilladehun wrote: »

I would second the strength training first approach. Based on my own personal experience.

Being stronger is going to make you better at any other exercise you do.

SortingYouOut wrote: »

Build muscle. The more muscle you have, the more calories you require, even at rest. You'll lose the fat by gaining muscle, if you eat well too.

paw patrol wrote: »

personally I'd lose the weight over trying to build muscle.
If you are new to lifting weight the new stimulus will build muscle anyway even if you are eating in a deficit.

cyrusshaikh wrote: »

I would suggest you to first lose weight and then go for hard core muscle training, this way you will have control over your diet and you will know about your body on how it works and how it can help you lose weight and build muscle, all the best.

These suggestions are all valid. But none seem to relate to the OP.
I don't know how anyone can give advice on fat loss, muscle gain, or strength training. Without an idea for OPs current fat mass, muscle mass and strength.

If he's a 90kg physical worker with a bit of a belly. He's probably plenty strong and should lose the belly.
If he's a 60kg guy with a sedentary job, then he is likely skinny fat and should build muscle.

Most people are on a spectrum in-between, but knowing where OP sits is pretty critical in order to advise imo.

Mellor

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If OP is just a normal guy who wants to lose a few KG and tone up a bit of muscle (not start doing body building or get as light as possible) then what are the arguments against doing both a moderate calorie deficit and doing some muscle training at the same time?

The main argument against doing both at the same time is that they are competing objectives and if you at low-moderate training intensity you end up hindering the progress of either.

Fat loss requires a calorie deficit.
Muscle building requires available calories.

While in theory its possible for the body to use bodyfat for energy AND to create a net surplus to build muscle, its far more likely in normal circumstances to conserve energy and not increase energy output.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Have a calorie deficit and exercise and make sure to eat enough protein to grow the muscles. It might not be the fastest way to either lose weight (because you're also gaining "weight" through a bit of muscle) or the fastest way to gain muscle (because you're in calorie deficit and not on an athlete muscle gain diet). But surely its the fastest way to do both things if you want to lose weight and build muscle.

You need more than protein to grow muscle. As above, it also requires energy. And if you are in calorie deficit, any protein you eat (beyond basic daily needs) will be used for energy.

And even if you manage to find a sweetspot and do both, the rate of burn/growth will be far less than if you focused on either. So overall it takes you longer to get to your goal.

In order to do both, you really need to be training at a very high intensity. Careful meal and training timing. And ideally chemical assistance. ie athletes rather thna casual Joes.

paw patrol

Mellor wrote: »

These suggestions are all valid. But none seem to relate to the OP.
I don't know how anyone can give advice on fat loss, muscle gain, or strength training. Without an idea for OPs current fat mass, muscle mass and strength.

is that not the caveat of all advice online

but my posts (all of them) need to be taken in their entirity - one can't cherry-pick a line

I answered his direct question then offered my advice in the next few lines which you didn't quote yet pertains to the question asked and the entire response .

regardless of physical condition I'd stand over the next lines for 99% of people starting the gym or training unless their was a clear and obvious reason which none was mentioned.

I'd recommend cleaning up your diet first as in food quality and getting into a routine and practice of hitting training sessions/gym before I'd worry about extra stuff like measuring calories.

You could find that improved food quality ,normal eating and training is enough to get you to where you want to be without the need to measure calories and the rest which isnt always necessary.

Mellor wrote: »

If he's a 90kg physical worker with a bit of a belly. He's probably plenty strong and should lose the belly.

highly unlikely

Mellor wrote: »

If he's a 60kg guy with a sedentary job, then he is likely skinny fat and should build muscle.

more likely given what he said in his OP.

OtterLM wrote: »

I haven't a lot of muscle and I'd like to do some weight training to add some (don't need to be Arnie).
?

Mellor

paw patrol wrote: »

is that not the caveat of all advice online

No. Not in the slightest.
Takes very little effort to ask a few question about OPs current position. In facts that’s usually what happens.

[/quote]but my posts (all of them) need to be taken in their entirity - one can't cherry-pick a line

I answered his direct question then offered my advice in the next few lines which you didn't quote yet pertains to the question asked and the entire response .

regardless of physical condition I'd stand over the next lines for 99% of people starting the gym or training unless their was a clear and obvious reason which none was mentioned.[/quote]
I trimmed all the posts as I was quoting multiple posts.

The parts I cut out where good general advice. But they were completely irrelevant to my point. Leaving then in doesn’t impact what I said. Advising somebody to cut/bulk without know their starting point is meaningless. People have given completely opposite advice, and either could be right. Not really useful for the OP.

Mellor

paw patrol wrote: »

highly unlikely

more likely given what he said in his OP.

They were examples of two people with bellys to highlight the range of body comp. Neither was a guess at the OP, I chose unlikely descriptions on purpose.
And you’ve essentially proved my point.

You say it’s more likely that he’s the 60kg guy? Yet you advised losing weight first. That would be a poor approach if he was 60kg.

Bellie1

If he's new to strength training then thought he can build muscle while in deficit? At the least I thought it was recommended so that he will be more likely to lose fat while in a deficit and maintain whatever muscle he has.

Cill94

The correct answer has already been given:

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Eat cleaner
Start lifting weights.
The end

It doesn’t need to be more complicated than this. It will eventually, but OP ain’t there yet.

I would also recommend OP consider what new habits/behaviours have led to him gaining the weight, and trying to reverse those. Might mean deleting the Just Eat app off your phone etc.

new2tri19

Cill94 wrote: »

The correct answer has already been given:



It doesn’t need to be more complicated than this. It will eventually, but OP ain’t there yet.

I would also recommend OP consider what new habits/behaviours have led to him gaining the weight, and trying to reverse those. Might mean deleting the Just Eat app off your phone etc.

Would the correct answer not be ?
Eat clean
Do weights
Do some form of cardio 30 mins a day

Dtp1979

new2tri19 wrote: »

Would the correct answer not be ?
Eat clean
Do weights
Do some form of cardio 30 mins a day

Ideally, but the OP is looking to build muscle

paw patrol

Mellor wrote: »

They were examples of two people with bellys to highlight the range of body comp. Neither was a guess at the OP, I chose unlikely descriptions on purpose.
And you’ve essentially proved my point.

You say it’s more likely that he’s the 60kg guy? Yet you advised losing weight first. That would be a poor approach if he was 60kg.

I said "personally" in terms of his direct question but then went on to offer the actual advise - you're missing that bit

From a personal point of view, if you think you've fat to lose - you are carrying a bit. I'd prefer that was lost over a bulk attempt.

you disagree? that's fine - that's what forums exist for.

But at 60kg he is unlikely to be carrying any fat to be worried about - at 60kg he is more likely to be worried about being too skinny,
lets be reasonable and not look for extremes

Mellor

paw patrol wrote: »

From a personal point of view, if you think you've fat to lose - you are carrying a bit. I'd prefer that was lost over a bulk attempt.

you disagree? that's fine - that's what forums exist for.

Yea. I disagree. I’ve explained why.
It’s blanket advice with no consideration to his composition or needs.

Saying it’s a personal point of view doesn’t change that it’s not considered. Nor does the subsequent good advice.

But at 60kg he is unlikely to be carrying any fat to be worried about - at 60kg he is more likely to be worried about being too skinny,
lets be reasonable and not look for extremes

It was you that said 60kg was more likely than 90kg. Seams contradictory now.

The point was that some people should lose first, others should build first. And its probably better to ask some questions first.

OtterLM

Many thanks once again to everyone who’s posted here, it’s been hugely useful to get all the feedback. I thought I’d give a little more background information as there’s been a bit of discussion on what approach to take.

I’m currently 88kg which is about the heaviest I’ve ever been. Most of the weight/fat went on in the last 14 months due to weekend beers, weekly takeaway and probably eating a small amount of crap along the way. This combined with being at home with 2 small kids while working full time at the start of lockdown followed by a general lack of being out and about has led to less general fitness and much lower energy.

I’ve only done a small amount of actual weight training in the past but over the years have done periods of TaeKwon Do, kickboxing and boxing so I was/am still fairly flexible and would have been (relatively) strong for my muscle mass (in my humble opinion). I was also doing a small bit of cycling

Definitely cleaner eating and a small amount of training would bump up the energy. When I was training in the past I had no problem getting into a routine of clean eating. At home I’ve access to some weights & kettle bells, a heavy punch bag and chin/pull up bar along with a good road bike.

Just a final note. In recent months I’ve had a persistent problem with a slight ligament tear in my knee which has delayed any return to proper training but it appears to be almost cleared up so I’m now eager to put some kind of routine together.
Many thanks once again for all the great posts – much appreciated!

Mellor

OtterLM wrote: »

I’m currently 88kg which is about the heaviest I’ve ever been.

I’ve only done a small amount of actual weight training in the past but over the years have done periods of TaeKwon Do, kickboxing and boxing so I was/am still fairly flexible and would have been (relatively) strong for my muscle mass (in my humble opinion). I was also doing a small bit of cycling

Sounds closer to the 90kg, strong, but a bit of a belly scenario.
I'd cut the fat first. Clean up the diet, aim for 0.5kg-1.0kg loss a week.
Start resistance training.

Eat better. Move more.

Minime2.5

You don't need to eat in a surplus to gain muscle especially if you have never lifted weights before . The goal you've set of losing fat and gaining muscle don't have to be mutually exclusive. As a newbie you can do both at the same time . Even if you were an advanced lifter looking to do an extreme cut down phase you should always still be weight training . You just need eat in a slight deficit and eat good nutritious food 3-5 times a day with a healthy serving of protein in each meal and make sure your lifting 3 times a week and hitting all the major muscles with the big 3 compounds , you should add military press and pull ups as well

Here is an example of some meals

Breakfast

3 eggs omelete with lots of veg
bowl of porridge or 2 slices of whole wheat toast
Piece of fruit


Lunch

Whole wheat wrap with chicken salad

Dinner

Steak of salmon , baked potato and veg

have 1 or 2 scoops of protein powder inbtween meals and your set

juliaalmeida

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058187823/lose-weight-or-build-muscle-first

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058187823/lose-weight-or-build-muscle-first