The great myths of housing

Wanderer78

Cyrus wrote: »

most are , plenty aren't.

we are talking about the people who are buying the 1m euro houses.

some arent alright, but most probably are, which is one of the main issues, i.e. low wage inflation

GreeBo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

most people in their 30's are more than likely stuck in the 30-50k income brackets

Not the ones buying in Ranelagh and Rathfarnham though, which is the point.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I see a minor flaw in his First Time Buyers being only .3% of transactions argument...

fvp4 wrote: »

At 0.3% of transactions this would indicate that first time buyers market is dead, if true. Meaning there is a crisis for first time buyers.

Probably nonsense though.

"approx 0.3% of all homeowners and 25% of annual sales"

Ace2007

Wanderer78 wrote: »

most people in their 30's are more than likely stuck in the 30-50k income brackets

If your stuck, move jobs, re-educate yourself, find a second income, move to an area that you can afford etc.

Wanderer78

Ace2007 wrote: »

If your stuck, move jobs, re-educate yourself, find a second income, move to an area that you can afford etc.

...again, these are all flippant remarks, we dont live on a planet that makes these 'solutions' actually possible for some, they can also cause quite serious social dysfunctions and outcomes, and you d wonder why we re experiencing such upheaval politically across the world, wake up lads, again, this is your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, we re talking about here!

An audit of existing property and who owns it

A nice little charge on vacant property in high demand areas

A nice fat charge on derelict property anywhere

And funds to pay the same tax as anyone else on purchasing

No location preference to be allowed on social housing applications

Jail time for anyone who equates "not permanently housed" with "homeless"

Publication of property assets and incomes for all serving politicians and theit spouses, and all employee full time by housing orgs and charities

Three months non payment of mortgage/rent leads to a no-contest eviction

I think thatd do it

ec18

fvp4 wrote: »

I am not sure why you want evidence of this, because it would be like me saying the sky is blue and you demanding evidence. House prices have risen faster than incomes for years, hence the affordability issue.

in the past one income, and a moderate one, could buy a house inside the M50.

I'm merely trying to point out that parts of the city have never been affordable to the median earner.

The median earners back then bought in terenure/ templeogue etc which over the years have risen in value due them becoming more attractive and desirable.

Asking for proof of a statement you make is essential for a fair/balanced discussion otherwise you're just saying things. So yes the sky is blue but until you provide me with some evidence that 'back in the day' median earners could buy in Dublin City, your assertion is invalid and inadmissible.

Same thing was happening in the 80's

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/rising-dublin-house-prices-in-the-1980s-from-the-archives-may-16th-1989-1.2212646

fvp4 wrote: »

yes, so even with that huge deposit and a very high income they can just make a cheap house in that area. What about when we get to a 2 million house?

Those people would be better off buying in Raheny or Clontarf by the way.

Again I don't get the issue here. Clearly its high wealth people who own these houses, and whatever income is involved is not mainly from salary.

Stop moving the goal posts you said a house around 1 million and it was pointed out to you by several posters that the purchase price of 1 Million is not out of this world for two professionals working in Dublin.

As regards the huge deposit it's all relative, going back to my example,

175,000 household is 87,500 each gross. Which gives a monthly take home of about 9K, Take half out for living expenses

That leaves at least 4500 a month to save which to save 200 K would take 44 months. Not terribly un reasonable, that people would save for about 4 years to buy a house?

Cyrus wrote: »

its not as rare as people want to think, anyone in the big law or accountancy firms with 10 years experience will be earning that or close to it, and they very often couple up,

the people who left and went to industry will out earn them unless they make partner.

there are loads of people in their 30s earning that kind of money.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

most people in their 30's are more than likely stuck in the 30-50k income brackets

It's true there's a lot of higher paid people than you would think. If you're stuck in that bracket then unfortunately you'll have to accept that some areas are out of your budget. And compromise that's what we had to do and most people who have bought a house are the same.

Wanderer78

ec18 wrote: »

I'm merely trying to point out that parts of the city have never been affordable to the median earner.

The median earners back then bought in terenure/ templeogue etc which over the years have risen in value due them becoming more attractive and desirable.

Asking for proof of a statement you make is essential for a fair/balanced discussion otherwise you're just saying things. So yes the sky is blue but until you provide me with some evidence that 'back in the day' median earners could buy in Dublin City, your assertion is invalid and inadmissible.

Same thing was happening in the 80's

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/rising-dublin-house-prices-in-the-1980s-from-the-archives-may-16th-1989-1.2212646



Stop moving the goal posts you said a house around 1 million and it was pointed out to you by several posters that the purchase price of 1 Million is not out of this world for two professionals working in Dublin.

As regards the huge deposit it's all relative, going back to my example,

175,000 household is 87,500 each gross. Which gives a monthly take home of about 9K, Take half out for living expenses

That leaves at least 4500 a month to save which to save 200 K would take 44 months. Not terribly un reasonable, that people would save for about 4 years to buy a house?





It's true there's a lot of higher paid people than you would think. If you're stuck in that bracket then unfortunately you'll have to accept that some areas are out of your budget. And compromise that's what we had to do and most people who have bought a house are the same.

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

Ace2007

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, these are all flippant remarks, we dont live on a planet that makes these 'solutions' actually possible for some, they can also cause quite serious social dysfunctions and outcomes, and you d wonder why we re experiencing such upheaval politically across the world, wake up lads, again, this is your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, we re talking about here!

They aren't though.

There are a large number of high paid people/couples in this country - because they worked hard in school got good education and then worked hard and move up ladder in their jobs.

If you are stuck in the bracket of 30k - then somewhere along the lines you didn't put in the work, that might sound very harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. If your in your twenties and stuck - why not make sacrifices and go and retrain - be it with a trade or with college. Yes it might be hard, but why should it be easy?

mariaalice

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

Something interesting that was pointed out to me, I was looking at what houses sold for in the 1960s it was s 3-bed semi and it seems very cheap in comparison to incomes at the time, however, what was pointed out to me was that the cohort buying those houses he 1960s are the exact same cohort today i.e mid-ranking professionals so no real change despite the big change in costs versus income over the past 40 years.

ec18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

timmyntc

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

The issue is property price inflation nationally. It's not just Dublin city centre, its everywhere.

Ray Palmer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

You rely aren't considering the massive cultural changes in the country. Households went from 1 income to 2 as women became more important in the work force. So house prices were always going to go up. Household incomes became higher. When getting a mortgage 2 incomes are considered now.
Secondary incomes were common in the past. One main income and a partner working a till when the children were at school or students with a job for pocket money. Now people expect these low paying jobs to be a living wage. It never was before.
New standard of living with each child expecting a room to themselves. People expect 2 cars now.
Divorce has had an impact along with less marriages. Requires more property. The HSE will pay for both parents to have 2 bed places for one child.

It really isn't as simple as prices just kept going up due to greed but a massive change in what is expected.

Browney7

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

Some of the strongest inflation numbers the past while have been Wicklow, Meath and Kildare based on the CSO numbers I've seen.

A lot of this could be explained somewhat by these counties having a higher share of new build properties which have shown higher growth rates due to building standards, materials prices and the HTB free money refund being increased to 10% (cap of 30k) instead of 5%. The "Race for space" effect is also driving demand with people wanting to be near Dublin for the few days a week in the office whilst getting more bang for their buck house wise in Naas, Newbridge, Ratoath and other such places.

Brian?

Cyrus wrote: »

a couple on 125k each with no kids can borrow 875k, 125k isnt a massive salary these days (in relative terms), there are load of couples like that out there. They will tend to have buying power up to 1m - 1.1m depending on what they have saved.

for the houses at 2-5m it more likely to be a CXO level but to think most people buying in these places are sitting at home with massive inheritance earning a passive income is not true.

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

GreeBo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, these are all flippant remarks, we dont live on a planet that makes these 'solutions' actually possible for some, they can also cause quite serious social dysfunctions and outcomes, and you d wonder why we re experiencing such upheaval politically across the world, wake up lads, again, this is your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, we re talking about here!

If you are on 30-40k why on earth would you feel that you should be able to live in some of the most sought after parts of the country?

GreeBo

Brian? wrote: »

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Snickers Man

Ace2007 wrote: »

If your stuck, move jobs, re-educate yourself, find a second income, move to an area that you can afford etc.

...and if you don't have any bread.......eat some cake!
:rolleyes:

ec18

timmyntc wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation nationally. It's not just Dublin city centre, its everywhere.

Taking a random example of Thurles in tipperary house prices start at 55K for a 1 bed apartment and the cheapest 3 bed house is 110K. Take 10% out of that is a 99K mortgage around (28K income required).

Admittedly that is a random search very much just looking at price but there are some houses available.

I'm not saying it's all on people to just compromise and get on it with it there's some policy work that needs to be done. But there needs to be some cutting of cloth to match the measure as well.

GreeBo

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

Why wouldnt high demand for a limited resource lead to price inflation?

What would your expectation be in this scenario? What would artificially keep prices "affordable", and how do you divide 4 buyers into 3 houses, regardless of the price?

Ace2007

GreeBo wrote: »

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Because that' what people are complaining about on here the most, how many people do you see complaining about the price of houses in Kerry?

Cyrus

Brian? wrote: »

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

overall it is, its not rare when you are talking about who is buying the houses in the more expensive dublin suburbs.

Wanderer78

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are on 30-40k why on earth would you feel that you should be able to live in some of the most sought after parts of the country?

once again, the ignorance prevails! gentrification, an interesting subject matter, particularly in relation to property and land!

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

its not as rare as people want to think, anyone in the big law or accountancy firms with 10 years experience will be earning that or close to it, and they very often couple up,

the people who left and went to industry will out earn them unless they make partner.

there are loads of people in their 30s earning that kind of money.

Indeed, also, the likes of a maintenance tech on 24/7 shift would be on the guts of €100k.
Don't need to be at the top of the tree to pull in a decent wedge.

GreeBo

Ace2007 wrote: »

Because that' what people are complaining about on here the most, how many people do you see complaining about the price of houses in Kerry?

So why not a thread complaining about the price of diamonds or Porsches?

Many people have an issue that their expectation doesnt match their reality.
Just because your low to middle class parents could afford a house in Dublin on the a single industrial wage doesnt mean that you can or should also be able to do it.

If one thinks about it logically for even a minute, it should be obvious.
You and your siblings grew up in 1 house, but it will take more than 1 house to give each of you a home. Space is finite, ergo demand is higher than supply.

Brian?

Ace2007 wrote: »

They aren't though.

There are a large number of high paid people/couples in this country - because they worked hard in school got good education and then worked hard and move up ladder in their jobs.

If you are stuck in the bracket of 30k - then somewhere along the lines you didn't put in the work, that might sound very harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. If your in your twenties and stuck - why not make sacrifices and go and retrain - be it with a trade or with college. Yes it might be hard, but why should it be easy?

Honest you're delusional. When I lived in Ireland my family income was over 150k, but we had 2 kids. A 400k house was about the most we could afford to live in. 320k mortgage at 4.5%.

I moved to the Netherlands, first year here my wife didn't work and my income was about 90k. Bought a house with a 100% mortgage at 1.3% for 375k. Could have had a mortgage as high as 550k at 1.3%.

I was paying more to live in a 3 bed in Celbridge than I am to live in a 4 bed near the centre of Eindhoven.

There is no area I can't afford to live in here. There are houses I can't afford to buy though obviously. If I moved home I would eliminate most of Dublin from my search because I can't afford it. Even with close to 150k savings.

The market in Ireland is broken. It needs massive surgery to fix.

Folk sh1tting on about most people earn €30/€50k so they can't buy a €1m house.

But most people couple up also so if most are on €30/€50k they can therefore buy a €240 to €380k ish house which provides plenty options.......... but then the sh1tters on will sh1t on about the single person on €20k for life, forever single and forever not progressing.......... etc etc ...........yawn yawn

Brian?

GreeBo wrote: »

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Because the poster said there are "loads of couples on 125k" each. That's simply wrong, I never said anything about expensive areas.

ec18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, the ignorance prevails! gentrification, an interesting subject matter, particularly in relation to property and land!

So a question, id you have a couple on 35K each so 70K combined that's a mortgage amount of €245,000 with €25,000 deposit. Is a purchase price in €270,000

Which a quick search on daft shows 602 properties available in Dublin.

The median salary for dublin is 47,000 so I'm not sure what you're expecting the couple on 35,000 each to be able to afford?

Wanderer78

ec18 wrote: »

So a question, id you have a couple on 35K each so 70K combined that's a mortgage amount of €245,000 with €25,000 deposit. Is a purchase price in €270,000

Which a quick search on daft shows 602 properties available in Dublin.

The median salary for dublin is 47,000 so I'm not sure what you're expecting the couple on 35,000 each to be able to afford?

once again, the big picture, what has in fact caused our current situation of high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, this didnt just happen out of the blue?

35k each, you d be lucky to buy a shed for that!