is democracy an illusion?

ShatterAlan

Former Former Former wrote: »

Democracy isn't perfect.

We should therefore have:
a) A monarchy?
b) A military junta?
c) A good old-fashioned dictatorship?
d) Total anarchy?

Democracy and Monarchy are not mutually exclusive.


The UK, Spain, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden are all monarchies. They are also democratic states.


Don't confuse democracy with "republic".

joe40

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Democracy and Monarchy are not mutually exclusive.


The UK, Spain, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden are all monarchies. They are also democratic states.


Don't confuse democracy with "republic".

They're not like monarchies of old. They have no real power.
The British Royal family is a glorified tourist attraction at this stage.

dickdasr1234

guy2231 wrote: »

I watched an american documentary on Youtube recently it showed how the political parties of Ireland in the 70s, 80s, 90s, were living a lavish lifestyle completely unexplainable by their salaries.

A quote from the video "they make the mafia look like chumps".

Despite this constant institutionalised corruption these parties never had any opposition and were able to easily remain in power.

The corruption went on well into the 2000s as we all know despite this and all of what brought the recession on they still remain in power this is pretty much proof that democracy is a joke.

It takes serious money, power and influence to challenge these already established democratic parties, SF only managed to do this through their power and influence they got through the IRA and their massive electoral success in the North.

I'll find and link the video if anyone is interested in watching it.

Yes, please.

guy2231

dickdasr1234 wrote: »

Yes, please.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m0wAbQUMfWs

It's about one person but goes into a broader talk about Irish politics as a whole.

Capt'n Midnight

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Democracy and Monarchy are not mutually exclusive.


The UK, Spain, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden are all monarchies. They are also democratic states.

The UK is not a monarchy.

Only parliament is sovereign. Not the people like here. Not the monarch.

The PM can get get the Queen to appoint loads of people to the House of Lords and totally undermine it.

The Privy Council can override the monarch. Parliament can get rid of the monarch. And has done previously.


It's hard to argue that the UK is a proper representative democracy when it's a First Past The Post two English party system and three of the four countries can be ignored in parliament.

Capt'n Midnight

ShatterAlan

joe40 wrote: »

They're not like monarchies of old. They have no real power.
The British Royal family is a glorified tourist attraction at this stage.

That's not the point. Ireland is a republic in that it has a codified written law, a constitution per se. The UK is a constitutional monarchy. It doesn't have a written law.

fvp4

fvp4 wrote: »

Do you think China is badly run? I’ve visited but never lived there.

Corruption is the biggest problem, since it's been a core part of their culture going back to the Tang dynasty or earlier. There are so many layers to the corruption from the socially acceptable to the outright evil. This affects the perceptions of everyone, and factors into those who become public servants.

Is China badly run? Kinda. It really depends on what part of China you're looking at, whether it's one of the 1st tier cities or a rural area. The breakdown of provinces, and districts each having their own leaders and local governments, each essentially being semi-independent, means that there's a wide variance over how things are managed and the competing interests that steer decisions.

While they've modernised large areas of China, especially the cities, most of it is rather superficial. Surface changes, although considering the size of their cities/provinces, it's understandable that it would take a lot of time for these changes to become established, and maintained.

In terms of governance and it's impact on people themselves, I'd say there's a strong sense of benign neglect. If you manage to avoid the direct attention of the State, then Chinese people can have a very free life.. and plenty of ways to circumvent local rules or laws. Some things are strongly enforced by the police, but mostly, as long as things are done privately, the police don't really care, and can be bribed to look the other way. Heaps of laws in place, but few of them are enforced, except in areas which are very public, or where the media rests it's attention.

Just to point out something. Chinese construction is often badly operated, and maintained. Yes, they can put up a six tower apartment complex in five months. I've seen it happen. I've also toured the apartment block after construction and seen the structural damage that managed to pass the inspection process. Chinese construction often sources really bad materials, and the construction itself isn't to any kind of high standard. On Average. (Depends on the contractor, and who is funding it). There's a reason I refuse to live in Apartment blocks past the third floor. Elevators are poorly maintained, emergency stairways are shoddy and completely unlit, there's open electrical wires in many places, and that's without talking about the cracks in the walls.

I can remember waking up in my apartment on the 24th floor, and finding the whole building swaying from side to side... while watching the tower across from me doing the same. The aftershocks of an earthquake hundreds of miles away, and yet, the shocks were enough to do real damage to the walls and ceilings. Ugh. Still.. Houses are for the rich in cities, so options are limited.

The point about construction is on the surface China is extremely impressive, but look under the immediate surface and you'll find heaps of serious problems. The same can be said for their government, or anything else you care to examine. Still... it's an awesome country to live in, if you're educated to a western standard.

guy2231

Jhj

dxhound2005

That's a delusion, not an illusion.

guy2231

An example how in our own country like most others democracy is just a facade to make the people think they are in control is that Sinn Fein won the most votes of any party in the last election yet they are not even in government there is a three-way coalition government, consisting of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, the party with the majority of votes did not even get into the 3 PARTY government, democracy my ass.

in this country and most western countries goes like this, the wealthy and powerful like media owners, the main political parties (usually the two party system) and intelligence services, the top level Gardai, these as an example, are all connected to each other through their wealth, power and influence (I'll scratch your back you scratch mine) with the mutual interest of everyone keeping their positions of power.

Sinn Fein got the majority of votes from the Irish people yet they were ousted by the establishment, under democracy the establishment can maintain control easily, the political powers, media, intelligence agencies, police etc. are the real government, all as one, any threat to any of these institutions they all come together quickly to stop the threat and remain in power.

Oymyakon

guy2231 wrote: »

Sinn Fein got the majority of votes from the Irish people yet they were ousted by the establishment.

Sinn Fein got 24.5% of the vote, that is NOT a majority.

Padre_Pio

Sinn Fein got the most votes of any one party, but not the majority.
FF and FG got 43% of votes between them.

Also, TDs count more than votes when it comes to forming a government.
Sinn Fein got a higher % of votes than FF, but less TDs (including the CC).

I see sheep

Of course.

It's rigged everywhere.

donvito99

"I can't count, therefore the system is rigged. Let me tell Boards about it."

Strumms

If it’s rigged it’s been rigged for 101 years since the 1920 election where proportional representation was first used here I believe...

The Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill 1958 Proposed that PR be done away with and replaced with a first past the post system. The electorate rejected this change in favor of keeping PR. A democratic rejection.

Sinn Fein I’m sure would like PR done away with, a Sinn Fein would probably prefer democracy to be done away with... full stop.

1874

Possibly,


imo there should not be an option for Political parties to stage manage an election outcome or exclude a party that got a higher preference of first votes by going into talks with a lower ranked party (votes).
The electoral system should treat the highest voted and higher first preference votes preferentially and have that formalised, that way no-one could manage the outcome, ie FF or FG could be essentially or should be forced to go into coalition with Labour or SF or whoever if that is the order of priority of how the electorate voted.


I think it would mean having some kind of scorecard where 1st preference should get priority over a candidate that got in on later or final counts for formation of a Govt.
I dont think the electorate understand how transfers work and many people think they have to number every candidate, whereas I actively ignore certain candidates, or mark those where I'm happy to give transfers.
My doing so is almost pointless as it is undermined if a lot of the electorate number their choices 1 to X/last on the day.

tDw6u1bj

guy2231 wrote: »

Is the irish system rigged

No

PR-STV is an extremely fair and representative system if you bother to look into how it works.

It gives you a very good representation of the preference of the population on the whole and allows people to support candidates/parties with low chance of winning while still having their preference registered.

What you seem to be suggesting is to adopt plurality/FPTP voting which is completely antiquated and can't be called democratic in this day and age because it causes those things you're complaining about - causes a 2-party system and makes it much easier for a small number to exert control and rig the system.

Speaking of Sinn Fein specifically - they wouldn't even exist in a first past the post system because they would have been shut out and withered to nothing decades ago with zero chance of re-emergence.

touts

guy2231 wrote: »

An example how in our own country like most others democracy is just a facade to make the people think they are in control is that Sinn Fein won the majority of votes in the last election yet they are not even in government there is a three-way coalition government, consisting of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, the party with the majority of votes did not even get into the 3 PARTY government, democracy my ass.

in this country and most western countries goes like this, the wealthy and powerful like media owners, the main political parties (usually the two party system) and intelligence services, the top level Gardai, these as an example, are all connected to each other through their wealth, power and influence (I'll scratch your back you scratch mine) with the mutual interest of everyone keeping their positions of power.

Sinn Fein got the majority of votes from the Irish people yet they were ousted by the establishment, under democracy the establishment can maintain control easily, the political powers, media, intelligence agencies, police etc. are the real government, all as one, any threat to any of these institutions they all come together quickly to stop the threat and remain in power.

You do know that non-Sinn Fein votes are counted also? That's democracy. Every vote counts. Even the ones you don't like.

I know it's a difficult concept for Trotskyists to understand and it's why socialist states normally resolve the problem of the majority of people not supporting them by only allowing one party to exist and deploying a Stazi infrastructure to make sure the people do what they are told.

But thankfully we live in a democracy not a socialist state. Well until Sinn Fein come to power and then all bets will be off.

Capt'n Midnight

guy2231 wrote: »

Another example in our own country on how democracy is an illusion is that Sinn Fein won the majority of votes in the last election yet they are not even in government there is a three-way coalition government, consisting of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, the party with the majority of votes did not even get into government, democracy my ass.

SF got 535,595 votes. Just under a quarter of the votes (24.5%) so doubling that would still have not given then a majority of the vote.

Look at the transfers. There aren't many between SF and FG so that's one partner ruled out. The soldiers of destiny still feel they are the republican party so good luck there. Until SF start attracting transfers from other parties those parties will take that as a big no from their voters.


In general parties of the left don't join together. Specifically there's been plenty of history between SF and Labour. Look at Aointu. Or PBP here or in the north. Or how many politicians on the left have jumped ship and burnt bridges.

dxhound2005

guy2231 wrote: »

An example how in our own country like most others democracy is just a facade to make the people think they are in control is that Sinn Fein won the most votes of any party in the last election yet they are not even in government there is a three-way coalition government, consisting of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, the party with the majority of votes did not even get into the 3 PARTY government, democracy my ass.

in this country and most western countries goes like this, the wealthy and powerful like media owners, the main political parties (usually the two party system) and intelligence services, the top level Gardai, these as an example, are all connected to each other through their wealth, power and influence (I'll scratch your back you scratch mine) with the mutual interest of everyone keeping their positions of power.

Sinn Fein got the majority of votes from the Irish people yet they were ousted by the establishment, under democracy the establishment can maintain control easily, the political powers, media, intelligence agencies, police etc. are the real government, all as one, any threat to any of these institutions they all come together quickly to stop the threat and remain in power.

You rigged the other thread by deleting the post with this stuff.

Yurt2

Strumms wrote: »

If it’s rigged it’s been rigged for 101 years since the 1920 election where proportional representation was first used here I believe...

The Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill 1958 Proposed that PR be done away with and replaced with a first past the post system. The electorate rejected this change in favor of keeping PR. A democratic rejection.

Sinn Fein I’m sure would like PR done away with, a Sinn Fein would probably prefer democracy to be done away with... full stop.

Actually it was Fianna Fáil who made a couple of attempts (in the late 50s and the late 60s) to do away with PR to bake-in their electoral supremacy at the time. Carry on regardless however...

PR-STV gave SF (and other parties besides) a foothold in the Irish political system.

dxhound2005

We have the advantage of seeing how SF perform in government in the North. None of their rhetoric about housing or health in the South is matched by their actions in the North. They operate very high Property Tax, and there are seriously long waiting lists for medical services.

So anyone would be foolish to believe the stuff they say they would do in government here.

murpho999

1874 wrote: »

Possibly,


imo there should not be an option for Political parties to stage manage an election outcome or exclude a party that got a higher preference of first votes by going into talks with a lower ranked party (votes).
The electoral system should treat the highest voted and higher first preference votes preferentially and have that formalised, that way no-one could manage the outcome, ie FF or FG could be essentially or should be forced to go into coalition with Labour or SF or whoever if that is the order of priority of how the electorate voted.


I think it would mean having some kind of scorecard where 1st preference should get priority over a candidate that got in on later or final counts for formation of a Govt.
I dont think the electorate understand how transfers work and many people think they have to number every candidate, whereas I actively ignore certain candidates, or mark those where I'm happy to give transfers.
My doing so is almost pointless as it is undermined if a lot of the electorate number their choices 1 to X/last on the day.

Sorry but numbers and majority doesn't work that way.

SF may have gotten the most votes and seats but they failed to form a government, so other parties did and somehow people view it as a rigged system by FF/FG.


Also, your idea of valuing 1st preference votes is undermining out democratic system as we operate a single transferable vote system were a vote is a vote so a No 1 preference ultimately means the same as for a no 8 preference. IE it's just on vote.

You also don't seem to understand how transfers work as your preference choices do not mean multiple votes. Ultimately only 1 of your votes or choices will count but you're now proposing to give a No1 preference double value which is wrong.

guy2231

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

No

PR-STV is an extremely fair and representative system if you bother to look into how it works.

It give you a very good representation of the preference of the population on the whole.

What you seem to be suggesting is to adopt plurality/FPTP voting which is completely antiquated and can't be called democratic in this day and age because it causes those things you're complaining about - causes a 2-party system and makes it much easier for a small number to exert control and rig the system.

You must be on the wind up, we have had a two party system for nearly a hundred years! As have most countries with the same or similar systems, now finally when a new party comes into the mix and wins the majority of votes that two party system come together to assure that this new party cannot make into government whatsoever.

The majority of people voted to get Sinm Fein in government more than any other party and the establishment came up with a way to keep them out anyway.

With comments like these it's no wonder the establishments love democracy so much.

Oymyakon

1874 wrote: »

I think it would mean having some kind of scorecard where 1st preference should get priority over a candidate that got in on later or final counts for formation of a Govt.

The issue I have with this is that The fact that so many Sinn Féin candidates topped the poll and were elected on first count was because they didn't have a running mate. Just because a Sinn Féin candidate topped the poll in a certain constituency doesn't mean Sinn Féin got the most first preferences there. With PR-STV, it is completely unfair to value the count someone got in on over another.

touts

touts wrote: »

You do know that non-Sinn Fein votes are counted also? That's democracy. Every vote counts. Even the ones you don't like.

I know it's a difficult concept for Trotskyists to understand and it's why socialist states normally resolve the problem of the majority of people not supporting them by only allowing one party to exist and deploying a Stazi infrastructure to make sure the people do what they are told.

But thankfully we live in a democracy not a socialist state. Well until Sinn Fein come to power and then all bets will be off.

Who says the op is a Trotskyist? Seems fairly right wing to me.

On the subject of socialism and capitalism, I’d prefer Western Europe to the US. Far better chance of not ending up in jail.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Sorry but numbers and majority doesn't work that way.

SF may have gotten the most votes and seats but they failed to form a government, so other parties did and somehow people view it as a rigged system by FF/FG.

They didn't get the most seats

1874

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

No

PR-STV is an extremely fair and representative system if you bother to look into how it works.

It gives you a very good representation of the preference of the population on the whole and allows people to support candidates/parties with low chance of winning while still having their preference registered.

What you seem to be suggesting is to adopt plurality/FPTP voting which is completely antiquated and can't be called democratic in this day and age because it causes those things you're complaining about - causes a 2-party system and makes it much easier for a small number to exert control and rig the system.

Speaking of Sinn Fein specifically - they wouldn't even exist in a first past the post system because they would have been shut out and withered to nothing decades ago with zero chance of re-emergence.

If Proportional representation is to be an accurate reflection what the electorate voted, then surely political parties (clubs) should be obliged to to form a Govt based on who the electorate voted for in order of majority of votes.
So if one party can achieve this on heir own, Govt formed
If not I think there should be an obligation to form the Govt should be with the next highest voted party, this would surely be more representative of how the electorate voted?


Allowing politicans (club members of uncertain allegience) decide who can form a Govt should imo not be allowed, the rules should be set so that it follows the order in votes of how the electorate voted

Oymyakon

guy2231 wrote: »

You must be on the wind up, we have had a two party system for nearly a hundred years! As have most countries with the same or similar systems, now finally when a new party comes into the mix and wins the majority of votes that two party system come together to assure that this new party cannot make into government whatsoever.

Please learn the definition of majority!!

guy2231

Oymyakon wrote: »

Please learn the definition of majority!!

You know what I bloody mean, good god.

Strumms

Yurt! wrote: »

Actually it was Fianna Fáil who made a couple of attempts (in the late 50s and the late 60s) to do away with PR to bake-in their electoral supremacy at the time. Carry on regardless however...

PR-STV gave SF (and other parties besides) a foothold in the Irish political system.

Indeed, and the electorate told them where to go, they would tell Sinn Fein the same now I believe.

Oymyakon

guy2231 wrote: »

You know what I bloody mean, good god.

So why do you think a party with less than one quarter of the votes have some god given right to govern? The numbers weren't there for them to form a coalition, and so we've ended up with the crowd we have now.

touts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who says the op is a Trotskyist? Seems fairly right wing to me.

On the subject of socialism and capitalism, I’d prefer Western Europe to the US. Far better chance of not ending up in jail.

Sinn Fein are Trotskyist.

But you are right. I suspect the OP like most Sinn Fein voters think Trotsky was the starting center back for Romania in Italia 90.

tDw6u1bj

guy2231 wrote: »

You know what I bloody mean, good god.

But...you're not quite getting it yourself. First preference means nothing. Literally and absolutely nothing. It's just something for people on TV to talk about when they're waiting for the actual results.

dxhound2005

guy2231 wrote: »

You must be on the wind up, we have had a two party system for nearly a hundred years! As have most countries with the same or similar systems, now finally when a new party comes into the mix and wins the majority of votes that two party system come together to assure that this new party cannot make into government whatsoever.

The majority of people voted to get Sinm Fein in government more than any other party and the establishment came up with a way to keep them out anyway.

With comments like these it's no wonder the establishments love democracy so much.

The two party system a hundred years ago was Sinn Fein and Unionist. SF got 70% of the seats with 46% of the vote under the voting system then. After partition Sinn Fein fell out of favour with the voters. Blame the voters for that.

Ten of Swords

Threads merged

Op I'm not sure AH is the ideal place for this, but certainly not 2 such threads, but we'll let it run for now and see how it goes

tDw6u1bj

1874 wrote: »

If Proportional representation is to be an accurate reflection what the electorate voted, then surely political parties (clubs) should be obliged to to form a Govt based on who the electorate voted for in order of majority of votes.
So if one party can achieve this on heir own, Govt formed
If not I think there should be an obligation to form the Govt should be with the next highest voted party, this would surely be more representative of how the electorate voted?


Allowing politicans (club members of uncertain allegience) decide who can form a Govt should imo not be allowed, the rules should be set so that it follows the order in votes of how the electorate voted

That's a separate debate to electoral systems.

Yurt2

touts wrote: »

Sinn Fein are Trotskyist.

But you are right. I suspect the OP like most Sinn Fein voters think Trotsky was the starting center back for Romania in Italia 90.

My cat was disobedient and churlish the other day. Is he a Trotskyist too or just being disagreeable? Please advise.

touts

touts wrote: »

Sinn Fein are Trotskyist.

I am fairly sympathetic towards Trotsky, but am not a Trotskyist.

The main reason I would never vote SF is because they are so desperately lacking in any political theory, aim and purpose, they cannot seriously call themselves socialists. No self-respecting socialist wants anything to do with Sinn Fein.

Trotskyists, if they even exist post-USSR (weren't they all abolished in 1991?) , would want nothing to do with SF either.

guy2231

Oymyakon wrote: »

So why do you think a party with less than one quarter of the votes have some god given right to govern? The numbers weren't there for them to form a coalition, and so we've ended up with the crowd we have now.

Did I say they have some god given right to govern? I believe (as a person naturally would) that the party which got the most votes should have a place in government especially when there are 3 parties in government and the party with the most votes is not one of them, not very "democratic" is it?

dxhound2005

guy2231 wrote: »

Did I say they have some god given right to govern? I believe (as a person naturally would) that the party which got the most votes should have a place in government especially when there are 3 parties in government and the party with the most votes is not one of them, not very "democratic" is it?

I think the other parties saw how it took SF three years to negotiate a coalition in the North, and said to themselves No Thanks. We would still be waiting for them to come up with something sensible if the other parties kept talking to them.

guy2231

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think the other parties saw how it took SF three years to negotiate a coalition in the North, and said to themselves No Thanks. We would still be waiting for them to come up with something sensible if the other parties kept talking to them.

That is exactly the point I was making of the system being rigged, Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but the establishment were able to come together and assure that this new party cannot get into government and they can remain in power themselves.

dxhound2005

guy2231 wrote: »

That is exactly the point I was making of the system being rigged, Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but the establishment were able to come together and assure that this new party cannot get into government and they can remain in power themselves.

Sinn Fein are part of the Establishment. That is why the Left Wing parties would not go into government with them.

Oymyakon

guy2231 wrote: »

That is exactly the point I was making of the system being rigged, Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but the establishment were able to come together and assure that this new party cannot get into government and they can remain in power themselves.

They were able to come together and form a government without Sinn Féin because they had over 50% of (democratically elected) Dáil seats. Nothing rigged about that.

tDw6u1bj

guy2231 wrote: »

Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party

They didn't though

Yurt2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are part of the Establishment.

I think that's a bit of a silly take. It's not so long ago that SF were completely persona non grata and public enemy number one in polite society and among the chattering classes. Voices dubbed over in the media , attracting the attention of the Special Branch if you were a member etc.

There are elements of the civil service, media and business community that still get sweaty palms with the thought of an incoming SF government. Their activists and public representatives aren't typically from 'the establishment' and there is a genuine hysteria among the upper-end of society about them.

Yurt2

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

They didn't though

I'd advise you do a fact check on yourself on that one.

tDw6u1bj

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd advise you do a fact check on yourself on that one.

my bad

guy2231

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are part of the Establishment. That is why the Left Wing parties would not go into government with them.

Sinn Fein emerged from a revolutionary period and emerged on this island from being the political wing of a guerilla army, that is the only reason they were able to break in and challenge the establishment from the support, credit and funding they had due to that, they were not even allowed to appear on television for decades they are generally known as the greatest enemy to the establishment, you can even tell in the accents they have a far more normal accent where as the rest of the parties have a very upper class (top tier of society) accent

They are not part of the establishment, FF/FG, the media, guards etc. Are all largely against Sinn Fein, they all done everything in their power to stop Sinn Fein from breaking in but it hasn't worked as they established their position and belonging on this island through the IRA.

The point is apart from this glitch in the system of the troubles and the IRA becoming a major entity on this island, (which is now just Sinn Fein not IRA) under democracy there would have been no chance of anyone ever challeging the establishment as the powerful and wealthy like the political parties, media and high ranking gardai for example are all connected through their power and influence and work together (you scratch my back I'll scratch yours) with the mutual interest of everyone keeping their positions of power.