is democracy an illusion?

tDw6u1bj

guy2231 wrote: »

Sinn Fein emerged from a revolutionary period

Is this a good time to point out that you're mixing up Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein

Padre_Pio

guy2231 wrote: »

Did I say they have some god given right to govern? I believe (as a person naturally would) that the party which got the most votes should have a place in government especially when there are 3 parties in government and the party with the most votes is not one of them, not very "democratic" is it?

Sinn Fein are the opposition party though. They hold the government to account, They're not silent in the Dail on matters except COVID, which was right.

Strumms

guy2231 wrote: »

Sinn Fein emerged from a revolutionary period and emerged on this island from being the political wing of a guerilla army, that is the only reason they were able to break in and challenge the establishment from the support, credit and funding they had due to that, they were not even allowed to appear on television for decades they are generally known as the greatest enemy to the establishment, you can even tell in the accents they have a far more normal accent where as the rest of the parties have a very upper class (top tier of society) accent

They are not part of the establishment, FF/FG, the media, guards etc. Are all largely against Sinn Fein, they all done everything in their power to stop Sinn Fein from breaking in but it hasn't worked as they established their position and belonging on this island through the IRA.

The point is apart from this glitch in the system of the troubles and the IRA becoming a major entity on this island, (which is now just Sinn Fein not IRA) under democracy there would have been no chance of anyone ever challeging the establishment as the powerful and wealthy like the political parties, media and high ranking gardai for example are all connected through their power and influence and work together (you scratch my back I'll scratch yours) with the mutual interest of everyone keeping their positions of power.

I’d commend them for campaigning against a party that is on record of habitually supporting criminals, violence thugs and thuggery... to achieve their aims.

Against a party that would glorify increasing taxes on working people yet increasing handouts, for those who choose an alternative less busy lifestyle.

Against a party whose some members have actually questioned if home ownership is a good thing..or should be allowed...

Great thing about a democracy is, tomorrow I can...

Go buy a property

Go buy a car

Earn whatever I can get for my expertise

Sit on a pile of cash and do SFA if I can afford to.

When politicians and movements start murmuring in the shadows or elsewhere about removing choices supposedly for the betterment of society, time to sit up and tell them where to go, back under the bed. Because that ain’t democratic.

Yurt2

Strumms wrote: »

I’d commend them for campaigning against a party that is on record of habitually supporting criminals, violence thugs and thuggery... to achieve their aims.

Against a party that would glorify increasing taxes on working people yet increasing handouts, for those who choose an alternative less busy lifestyle.

Against a party whose some members have actually questioned if home ownership is a good thing..or should be allowed...

Great thing about a democracy is, tomorrow I can...

Go buy a property

Go buy a car

Earn whatever I can get for my expertise

Sit on a pile of cash and do SFA if I can afford to.

When politicians and movements start murmuring in the shadows or elsewhere about removing choices supposedly for the betterment of society, time to sit up and tell them where to go, back under the bed. Because that ain’t democratic.

Yep, hysteria.

ILoveYourVibes

Yes. But its the best illusion we have.

Yes, until we have democracy in the workplace.

Jim2007

Democracy is not an illusion but it would seem a lot of people are deluded about what democracy is. It is simply the set of rules a country is governed by, nothing else. So while it may please you to define what democracy is and go of on a rant about how it is so unfair that a country does not meet your expectations, you’ll have to accept that the majority don’t really care about your opinion.

In the case of Ireland, the people enacted a constitution which includes a PR form of voting and have twice rejected proposals to change it. So picking some other form of voting and getting all upset about the outcome is not of interest to the majority of Irish voters at the end of the day, no matter how much you’d like to think otherwise.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Sinn Fein are the opposition party though. They hold the government to account, They're not silent in the Dail on matters except COVID, which was right.

They don't hold them to account over immigration though, which is a major concern for many people. SF aren't any kind of effective opposition, and anyone who trusts them to represent the people are fooling themselves.

murpho999

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

They didn't get the most seats

Yes, you're right, memory failing me.

So Fianna Fail got the most seats but somehow they don't have a right to be in government.

Makes no sense to me.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't hold them to account over immigration though, which is a major concern for many people. SF aren't any kind of effective opposition, and anyone who trusts them to represent the people are fooling themselves.

People concerned about immigration but is not really a problem in Ireland despite what many warriors/barstoolers on the internet think.

guy2231

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes, you're right, memory failing me.

So Fianna Fail got the most seats but somehow they don't have a right to be in government.

Makes no sense to me.

FF got one more seat than Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but somehow failed to make the cut for government.

What is the point in getting the most votes if the rest of the parties can come together to assure you can't make it into government.

Even the green party got into government even though they had less than one third of Sinn Feins votes.

murpho999

guy2231 wrote: »

FF got one more seat than Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but somehow failed to make the cut for government.

What is the point in getting the most votes if the rest of the parties can come together to assure you can't make it into government.

Even the green party got into government even though they had less than one third of Sinn Feins votes.

Sinn Fein did not got a majority and therefore did not automatically win a right to govern but required co-operation from other parties.

They failed to gain agreement with other parties to govern and therefore have gone into opposition.
FF, FG & GP managed to make up the numbers with their elected TDs. That's how it works. GP could easily have been in government with SF.

Personally I think it was a deliberate decision by SF as Covid storm hit after and it's easier to be in opposition then and they'll probably clean up at next election.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

People concerned about but immigration is not really a problem in Ireland despite what many warriors/barstoolers on the internet think.

I have to laugh at the mindset of people. You'll complain about housing shortages, mortgage issues, and crime... but you dismiss the problems of allowing immigration of a new poor class in Ireland. A new class that will need housing and state provided funding, when their temporary low skilled jobs dry up.

Warriors/Barstoolers? Better that, than the same short term thinking that got Ireland into so many messes.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to laugh at the mindset of people. You'll complain about housing shortages, mortgage issues, and crime... but you dismiss the problems of allowing immigration of a new poor class in Ireland. A new class that will need housing and state provided funding, when their temporary low skilled jobs dry up.

Warriors/Barstoolers? Better that, than the same short term thinking that got Ireland into so many messes.

I'm not complaining about anything. Look at my posting history.

Housing and mortgage issue is probably the biggest issue facing Ireland right now as there's too much placed on value of land and it's owned and hoarded by too few people that is forcing prices up and making it unaffordable for many.
This is a failure of government policy and needs to be tackled.

But this affects immigrants too as they struggle to afford housing like the rest of us but your statement of i"A new class that will need housing and state provided funding, when their temporary low skilled jobs dry up." is just completely wrong and prejudiced and in the barstool category for me as not all immigration is for low skilled or temporary jobs. Many are for high level jobs in medicine, tech or pharma and we need people in these roles but they struggle to afford accommodation despite being well paid but they will not be a drain on government coffers.

Immigration can be a boost to an economy too but people like to just blame foreigners and make false claims of free housing and cars etc.

Also crime, I also don't see as a major issue as Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world with low crime rates.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Housing and mortgage issue is probably the biggest issue facing Ireland right now as there's too much placed on value of land and it's owned and hoarded by too few people that is forcing prices up and making it unaffordable for many.
This is a failure of government policy and needs to be tackled.

Yes, it does, and it has been exasperated by other government policies.

But this affects immigrants too as they struggle to afford housing like the rest of us but your statement of i"A new class that will need housing and state provided funding, when their temporary low skilled jobs dry up." is just completely wrong and prejudiced and in the barstool category for me as not all immigration is for low skilled or temporary jobs.

People like to focus on the skilled immigration as if that counters the wide range of low skilled immigration that has been allowed previously, and still continues to this day. It doesn't, because even if only a third of all immigration was for low skilled workers (which it isn't), the needs of those workers in terms of government supports are greater. Ireland does not have the industry to provide reliable permanent jobs for low skilled workers, and the services/retail industry which provides jobs for those low skilled in Ireland are going to take a further beating post covid.

There's nothing prejudiced in my post, and to suggest that there was, is more of this nonsense of seeking to ignore the realities facing the Irish economy.

Many are for high level jobs in medicine, tech or pharma and we need people in these roles but they struggle to afford accommodation despite being well paid but they will not be a drain on government coffers.

Immigration can be a boost to an economy too but people like to just blame foreigners and make false claims of free housing and cars etc.

Skilled immigration is a positive for the economy. However, much of the immigration that Ireland has experienced has not been skilled, especially when taking into account the dependents brought in with them. Are you going to tell me that the estimated 17k plus undocumented/illegal workers in Ireland were skilled and important for the economy?

Where have I blamed foreigners, or made false claims? If anything, your response is the one with false claims, since you've attributed points to me that I didn't make... Just as I didn't link crime to immigration...

guy2231

Posted on wrong thread.

Capt'n Midnight

guy2231 wrote: »

You must be on the wind up, we have had a two party system for nearly a hundred years! As have most countries with the same or similar systems, now finally when a new party comes into the mix and wins the majority of votes that two party system come together to assure that this new party cannot make into government whatsoever.

Where to start ?

SF won a huge majority a century ago. But most of those elected had only just joined the party and would leave within a few short years leaving behind a cohort that couldn't win a single seat by Sept 1927.

We stopped having a FF vs everyone else when they needed coalition partners to make up the numbers back in 1987 , and that was for only 60 years since FF first joined the Dail in 1927.

Apart from Labour , new parties like The Green party , the PD's and Democratic Left have been in Government.

Capt'n Midnight

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are part of the Establishment. That is why the Left Wing parties would not go into government with them.

Do a Venn diagram of the parties on the left and fill it with party leaders and TD's. Include parties that no longer exist.

dxhound2005

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Do a Venn diagram of the parties on the left and fill it with party leaders and TD's. Include parties that no longer exist.

Too complicated for me, far too many parties. I could try a diagram showing the intersection between SF policies in the South and SF practice in government in the North. There would be very little overlap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Democracy is certainly not an illusion. There is a wide diversity in policies between many of the parties, so there is a genuine choice in every election.

Jim2007

guy2231 wrote: »

FF got one more seat than Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party but somehow failed to make the cut for government.

What is the point in getting the most votes if the rest of the parties can come together to assure you can't make it into government.

Even the green party got into government even though they had less than one third of Sinn Feins votes.

TDs represents they views of the electorate and to form a government you must have the confidence of the Dail. SF failed to do so and consequently have no right what so ever to have any hand act or part in the government unless the Irish people decide to change the agreed democratic process no matter how much you’d like to get to define it.

It is always open to yourself and SF to campaign for a change although I don’t very much you’ll find few supporters for it.

Jim2007

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Democracy is certainly not an illusion. There is a wide diversity in policies between many of the parties, so there is a genuine choice in every election.

Unlike other PR systems which require party listings, there is no such requirement in Irish democracy, instead we allow independent members without affiliation to sit in the Dail.

Ubbquittious

You vote for a pack of eejits who after months of campaigning and plámásing turn against the people who voted for them as soon as they acquire a nice 5 year mandate.

Theyll look after their own special interests they never mentioned on the campaign trail and the mega corps who promised them a seat on their board.

Every time the government gets in on the back of promises they'd sort the housing crisis for example people realise they've been sold a pup but it can be very hard to remove them until the 5 years are up

moonage

If voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it.