Winning Hearts and Minds

cookimonster

Even food given to charities for free comes under the food safety act as does food given out by charitable organisations. The local foot ball club supplying sambos or a pot of home made curry for league matchs can run a foul of the FSAI.

Rows Grower

cookimonster wrote: »

Even food given to charities for free comes under the food safety act as does food given out by charitable organisations. The local foot ball club supplying sambos or a pot of home made curry for league matchs can run a foul of the FSAI.

I'd say it could run a foul on more than the FSAI.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I didn't think there was a law against giving oven ready venison to friends in Ireland. Is there?

So long as they are friends and nothing else .Go right ahead.

But donating it to a 3rd party could be on dodgy ground going by the writing
in 4.1 to 4.3 of the guidance of FSAI.It doesn't mention it specifically this situation of donating the meat to a charity org or the like. But I wouldn't like to be the one to be the test case.

Bog Trotter99

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

This is what happens when you have moaning minnies who just want to find fault with everything.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

You’re quite right, a game dealers licence only comes into play when game meat is sold. You can give any amount of it away without any obligation but the moment money changes it’s a different story.


If you as a hunter sell a carcass to someone one of the parties needs to be a licenced game dealer. It could be you if you have the proper setup and paperwork or the buyer.

In the case of butchers, supermarkets and restaurants the meat at some stage has to have passed through the hands of a game dealer. A restaurant could for example buy a deer carcass from a game dealer for the chef to break down and use.

You'd wonder is that the actual case?As it quite clearly says in the guidelines that as a hunter you can sell "small amounts " of game to butchers and restaurants.

4.2 Hunter Exemption for the Supply of Small Quantities of Primary Products
European food law makes provision for the scenario where small quantities of wild game primary products, e.g. in the fur or in the feather eviscerated, or non-eviscerated wild game bodies, may be supplied either direct to the final consumer or to local retail establishments, e.g. a retail butcher or restaurant who directly supply the final consumer.

A hunter supplying in such a manner is exempt from Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 which sets general hygiene rules applying to all food businesses; and Regulation (EC) No 853/2004 which sets additional hygiene rules applying to businesses producing food of animal origin but must comply with the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 178/2002 such as the obligation to produce safe food and have a traceability system in place.

It is important to note that a hunter invoking this exemption but also supplying game meat other than primary product would have to comply with, at a very minimum, the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 involving among other things: registration, general hygiene requirements, including appropriate storage and would be required to have a food safety management system in place.
The term ‘small quantities’ has not been defined in Irish legislation.
It would be expected that the demand for ‘in-fur’ or ‘in-feather’ wild game bodies, in such small quantities from either local consumers or local retailers, would be very limited.

The exemption is described in this section merely for completeness and to raise awareness of its existence.
FOOD SAFETY AUTHORITY OF IRELAND

THEN

Hunters Supplying Game
into the Food Chain
5.1 General
The hunter is permitted to do no more than the necessary preparation that is part of normal hunting practice before supplying the game into the food chain. Such preparation may be done ‘in the field’ or in a ‘game larder’.
This necessary preparation includes killing and where appropriate, bleeding and the removal of stomach and intestines (‘the green offal’).
For trained hunters (trained person), this preparation will also involve the removal of the heart, lungs and associated tissues and the head, as part of the examination of the live wild animal, wild game body and viscera for abnormal behaviour characteristics or suspicions of environmental contamination (please see Section 5.5 Hunter Training for further information on this).
If good hunting practices are observed, the stomach, intestines and other body parts of wild game may be disposed of safely on the site of hunting unless circumstances dictate that these parts must accompany the wild game body to the approved game handling establishment.

Except in the case of private domestic consumption, any further processing (such as skinning, plucking, cutting) of the wild game must be performed in an approved game handling establishment.

My take on this...
you can sell "small amounts" [whatever that is defined as]of the game to a butcher, restaurant etc. So long as it is gutted but still a complete carcass and in its fur or feathers. That's sOP all across the EU..But if you start breaking it down or skinning/plucking the game. Then it is considered a food processing affair.
So we seem to have a clash of the legislation here with this, which is EU legislation and the Game dealer act here in national law? So which one is it at the end of the day?

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Nah, you are safe on that one...There is a Good Samaritan act that exonerates you in cases like this here. Was on another thread here about what folks carry in their medic kits a couple of weeks ago.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So long as they are friends and nothing else .Go right ahead.

But donating it to a 3rd party could be on dodgy ground going by the writing
in 4.1 to 4.3 of the guidance of FSAI.It doesn't mention it specifically this situation of donating the meat to a charity org or the like. But I wouldn't like to be the one to be the test case.

Thanks for the go ahead.

I think.

What does the clause "and nothing else" cover?

Does it differentiate between friends and family, neighbours, work mates, hungry people you know, people you know that just appreciate a nicely prepared piece of wild venison?

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

This is what happens when you have moaning minnies who just want to find fault with everything.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Its an industry in itself, 'elf an safety. I have been in places where there were as many h&s clipboard carriers as there were workers.

JP22

tudderone wrote: »

Its an industry in itself, 'elf an safety. I have been in places where there were as many h&s clipboard carriers as there were workers.

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

We all need H&S, Risk Management, Food Safety etc., in the workplace but I admit some industries are definitely over-kill when it comes to safety in general, maybe they were caught/fined/in court etc.

All aspects of H&S when applied correctly should not stop or hinder a business or a particular job from taking place. Saying a job cannot be done because it’s too dangerous is a bucket load of you know what.

Just look at some Military jobs, dangerous is not the word yet they are completed daily in a safe manner. You must have all your ducks in a row, or in military parlance, all your P’ssssss in place (proper planning & preparation, prevents pi**, poor performance.

Just my tuppence worth.

tudderone

JP22 wrote: »

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

We all need H&S, Risk Management, Food Safety etc., in the workplace but I admit some industries are definitely over-kill when it comes to safety in general, maybe they were caught/fined/in court etc.

All aspects of H&S when applied correctly should not stop or hinder a business or a particular job from taking place. Saying a job cannot be done because it’s too dangerous is a bucket load of you know what.

Just look at some Military jobs, dangerous is not the word yet they are completed daily in a safe manner. You must have all your ducks in a row, or in military parlance, all your P’ssssss in place (proper planning & preparation, prevents pi**, poor performance.

Just my tuppence worth.

I was working with a contractor in Cadburys chocolate factory years ago and it was farcical. You had the health and safety mafia going around and then the shop stewards trying to trip you up. Its no wonder the Chinese are eating western businesses for breakfast.

Bog Trotter99

JP22 wrote: »

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

We all need H&S, Risk Management, Food Safety etc., in the workplace but I admit some industries are definitely over-kill when it comes to safety in general, maybe they were caught/fined/in court etc.

All aspects of H&S when applied correctly should not stop or hinder a business or a particular job from taking place. Saying a job cannot be done because it’s too dangerous is a bucket load of you know what.

Just look at some Military jobs, dangerous is not the word yet they are completed daily in a safe manner. You must have all your ducks in a row, or in military parlance, all your P’ssssss in place (proper planning & preparation, prevents pi**, poor performance.

Just my tuppence worth.

But all those H&S rules you introduce for the military have to go out the window when the crap hits the fan otherwise the other side wins.

For example.........If one man can only carry 20kg of ammo or lift same without a mechanical hoist, then when the Chinese attack it makes it very easy for them to quickly deplete your ammo and destroy your bomb loading capacity.

H&S is the scourge of western society on par with 'woke' and 'pc'.

What was needed back then in the 80's was common sense not jumped up office workers with white coats, clip boards and Friday afternoon rule books.

cookimonster

Just for clarity - the military does indeed have to comply with national health and safety regulations / law ...... on a day to day basis, but there are exemptions and they are based around offical training routines and active service.

Mundane and simple example - load carrying ie personal kit and full marching order (back packs / bergens) over rough and unsuitable ground for extended periods of time, a nessacery evil but during normal daily routine the rigours of safe manual handling should be applied.

dto001

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You'd wonder is that the actual case?As it quite clearly says in the guidelines that as a hunter you can sell "small amounts " of game to butchers and restaurants.

4.2 Hunter Exemption for the Supply of Small Quantities of Primary Products
European food law makes provision for the scenario where small quantities of wild game primary products, e.g. in the fur or in the feather eviscerated, or non-eviscerated wild game bodies, may be supplied either direct to the final consumer or to local retail establishments, e.g. a retail butcher or restaurant who directly supply the final consumer.

A hunter supplying in such a manner is exempt from Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 which sets general hygiene rules applying to all food businesses; and Regulation (EC) No 853/2004 which sets additional hygiene rules applying to businesses producing food of animal origin but must comply with the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 178/2002 such as the obligation to produce safe food and have a traceability system in place.

It is important to note that a hunter invoking this exemption but also supplying game meat other than primary product would have to comply with, at a very minimum, the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 involving among other things: registration, general hygiene requirements, including appropriate storage and would be required to have a food safety management system in place.
The term ‘small quantities’ has not been defined in Irish legislation.
It would be expected that the demand for ‘in-fur’ or ‘in-feather’ wild game bodies, in such small quantities from either local consumers or local retailers, would be very limited.

The exemption is described in this section merely for completeness and to raise awareness of its existence.
FOOD SAFETY AUTHORITY OF IRELAND

THEN

Hunters Supplying Game
into the Food Chain
5.1 General
The hunter is permitted to do no more than the necessary preparation that is part of normal hunting practice before supplying the game into the food chain. Such preparation may be done ‘in the field’ or in a ‘game larder’.
This necessary preparation includes killing and where appropriate, bleeding and the removal of stomach and intestines (‘the green offal’).
For trained hunters (trained person), this preparation will also involve the removal of the heart, lungs and associated tissues and the head, as part of the examination of the live wild animal, wild game body and viscera for abnormal behaviour characteristics or suspicions of environmental contamination (please see Section 5.5 Hunter Training for further information on this).
If good hunting practices are observed, the stomach, intestines and other body parts of wild game may be disposed of safely on the site of hunting unless circumstances dictate that these parts must accompany the wild game body to the approved game handling establishment.

Except in the case of private domestic consumption, any further processing (such as skinning, plucking, cutting) of the wild game must be performed in an approved game handling establishment.

My take on this...
you can sell "small amounts" [whatever that is defined as]of the game to a butcher, restaurant etc. So long as it is gutted but still a complete carcass and in its fur or feathers. That's sOP all across the EU..But if you start breaking it down or skinning/plucking the game. Then it is considered a food processing affair.
So we seem to have a clash of the legislation here with this, which is EU legislation and the Game dealer act here in national law? So which one is it at the end of the day?

Surely we could just try keep it simple and either raise money to pay for a game dealer to butcher a carcass or maybe a game dealer would go it for a good cause it would be excellent PR

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

Thanks for the go ahead.

I think.

What does the clause "and nothing else" cover?

Does it differentiate between friends and family, neighbours, work mates, hungry people you know, people you know that just appreciate a nicely prepared piece of wild venison?

Read the legislation on it and proceed as you see fit... If one of them comes back looking for compensation for biting on a bit of lead copper bullet fragment or from salmonella or something else...deal with it.:cool:

Grizzly 45

JP22 wrote: »

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

Best one I love is you have some guy teaching people who have been doing a particular job for years safely from a manual,on a mandatory [and expensive]safety course,and has never touched or experienced a machine/job in question themselves.:rolleyes:

Bog Trotter99

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Best one I love is you have some guy teaching people who have been doing a particular job for years safely from a manual,on a mandatory [and expensive]safety course,and has never touched or experienced a machine/job in question themselves.:rolleyes:

Exactly my points.

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

But all those H&S rules you introduce for the military have to go out the window when the crap hits the fan otherwise the other side wins.

For example.........If one man can only carry 20kg of ammo or lift same without a mechanical hoist, then when the Chinese attack it makes it very easy for them to quickly deplete your ammo and destroy your bomb loading capacity.

H&S is the scourge of western society on par with 'woke' and 'pc'.

What was needed back then in the 80's was common sense not jumped up office workers with white coats, clip boards and Friday afternoon rule books.

Well in fairness, i do remember the spate of "Personal injury" claims back in the 80's/90's until it was all dealt with. The work dodger next door was an expert at it, he got many many thousands in compo, to be spent wisely on Heinekin and John Player blue.

He was telling the father one day, he normally had two, possibly three claims in a year. He was always falling, tripping, or having things falling off shelves on him.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Read the legislation on it and proceed as you see fit... If one of them comes back looking for compensation for biting on a bit of lead copper bullet fragment or from salmonella or something else...deal with it.:cool:

I though you might have been reading different legislation when you said of the food safety authority " they''ll nail you for illegal food processing under the food safety act the moment you "prepare" game."

But it was just a load of baloney really that you got carried away with while feeling persecuted by the Irish authorities.

It's not as bad living in Ireland as you portray, I know some people think it's a dump but I love it here. Lots of positives to dwell on.

cookimonster

They'll nail you for "illegal food processing under the food safety act" The moment you "prepare" game.IE take it out of its skin or feathers.Its considered food processing and you need then to have a full food processing setup with all that entails.

Absolutely this above.... see below, recent case 2021.

Reference Material-

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/illegal-game-meat-butcher-in-wicklow-closed-601096

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/meat-sent-for-destruction-following-discovery-of-deer-processing-business/

https://www.fsai.ie/news_centre/press_releases/january_enforcements_08022021.html

The result is publication of various enforcement orders and the investigating report on the FSAI website as well as public media. Subsequent prosecution can lead to fines, gaol or both.

Rows Grower

cookimonster wrote: »

Absolutely this above.... see below, recent case 2021.

Reference Material-

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/illegal-game-meat-butcher-in-wicklow-closed-601096

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/meat-sent-for-destruction-following-discovery-of-deer-processing-business/

https://www.fsai.ie/news_centre/press_releases/january_enforcements_08022021.html

The result is publication of various enforcement orders and the investigating report on the FSAI website as well as public media. Subsequent prosecution can lead to fines, gaol or both.

The three links you provided are all related to people running an illegal business.

That's a different topic.

cookimonster

Nope, its an example of an unregistered food producer being 'nailed' as Grizzly-45 put it ohh so elegantly.

The point that is being made is 'money doesn't nessacerraly have to change hands for the food safety laws to apply'. Just to be clear food safety regulations do not apply to domestic situations but anything out of the norm can come under scrutiny. The example I gave a few posts back- 'sandwiches / curry' for the local football team won't be an issue on an occasional stance but it does become an issue if it is a routine arrangement (regardless of financial circumstances).

We are splitting hairs here, but the law is quite clear-

The trained hunter is allowed sell game on to a dealer once it-
a. Eviscerated but not skinned,
b. Intact and in feather.

The trained hunter can indeed sell to the trade prepared game - but only if they have the suitable premises, plant / equipment and a food safety management system ( ....theres a bit in it, not impossible but enough to wreck your head).

Giving it away to a registered food buisness is in breach of their food safety management chain as they are required to have traceability and therefore a breach in law.

You want to give someone something as a true gift ... no bother but if it's some form of payment in kind then its dodgy.


As a by the by ( and yes I know is a different duristriction) but I remember an interesting point on one of the Discovery Channel outdoor shows. Basically the outfitter couldn't feed their clients on game they, the outfitter, had previously harvested, as it was considered a commercial transaction and illegal under US or that particular State wildlife laws.

Grizzly 45

While on the subject of game dealers etc. One we might want to stick in the sticky on legislation.The game preservation act of 1930
Never seen this one before and I don't know has this been revoked or amended.it still reads as active legislation

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1930/act/11/enacted/en/html

Rows Grower

cookimonster wrote: »

Nope, its an example of an unregistered food producer being 'nailed' as Grizzly-45 put it ohh so elegantly.

The point that is being made is 'money doesn't nessacerraly have to change hands for the food safety laws to apply'. Just to be clear food safety regulations do not apply to domestic situations but anything out of the norm can come under scrutiny. The example I gave a few posts back- 'sandwiches / curry' for the local football team won't be an issue on an occasional stance but it does become an issue if it is a routine arrangement (regardless of financial circumstances).

We are splitting hairs here, but the law is quite clear-

The trained hunter is allowed sell game on to a dealer once it-
a. Eviscerated but not skinned,
b. Intact and in feather.

The trained hunter can indeed sell to the trade prepared game - but only if they have the suitable premises, plant / equipment and a food safety management system ( ....theres a bit in it, not impossible but enough to wreck your head).

Giving it away to a registered food buisness is in breach of their food safety management chain as they are required to have traceability and therefore a breach in law.

You want to give someone something as a true gift ... no bother but if it's some form of payment in kind then its dodgy.


As a by the by ( and yes I know is a different duristriction) but I remember an interesting point on one of the Discovery Channel outdoor shows. Basically the outfitter couldn't feed their clients on game they, the outfitter, had previously harvested, as it was considered a commercial transaction and illegal under US or that particular State wildlife laws.

There's no splitting hairs, the law is the law.

It is not illegal to give oven ready venison to a friend.

Richard308

cookimonster wrote: »

Nope, its an example of an unregistered food producer being 'nailed' as Grizzly-45 put it ohh so elegantly.

The point that is being made is 'money doesn't nessacerraly have to change hands for the food safety laws to apply'. Just to be clear food safety regulations do not apply to domestic situations but anything out of the norm can come under scrutiny. The example I gave a few posts back- 'sandwiches / curry' for the local football team won't be an issue on an occasional stance but it does become an issue if it is a routine arrangement (regardless of financial circumstances).

We are splitting hairs here, but the law is quite clear-

The trained hunter is allowed sell game on to a dealer once it-
a. Eviscerated but not skinned,
b. Intact and in feather.

The trained hunter can indeed sell to the trade prepared game - but only if they have the suitable premises, plant / equipment and a food safety management system ( ....theres a bit in it, not impossible but enough to wreck your head).

Giving it away to a registered food buisness is in breach of their food safety management chain as they are required to have traceability and therefore a breach in law.

You want to give someone something as a true gift ... no bother but if it's some form of payment in kind then its dodgy.


As a by the by ( and yes I know is a different duristriction) but I remember an interesting point on one of the Discovery Channel outdoor shows. Basically the outfitter couldn't feed their clients on game they, the outfitter, had previously harvested, as it was considered a commercial transaction and illegal under US or that particular State wildlife laws.

If there’s a reward it is illegal, just like if you give a friend a €5 for dropping you somewhere etc they’re in breach of Psv regulations.
The next question is how enforceable is it?

Bog Trotter99

Richard308 wrote: »

If there’s a reward it is illegal, just like if you give a friend a €5 for dropping you somewhere etc they’re in breach of Psv regulations.
The next question is how enforceable is it?

Well you have just highlighted how ridiculous this country is.

Run by a succession of fools who pass stupid laws, because they think they know better than others, just to get their name in headlines.

cookimonster

Rows Grower wrote: »

There's no splitting hairs, the law is the law.

It is not illegal to give oven ready venison to a friend.

Never said it was - did say :

Just to be clear food safety regulations do not apply to domestic situations but anything out of the norm can come under scrutiny.

....followed up by :

You want to give someone something as a true gift ... no bother but if it's some form of payment in kind then its dodgy.

Again for clarity, transparency, openness and upfront, as also explained Richard308 -

If there’s a reward it is illegal

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Well you have just highlighted how ridiculous this country is.

Run by a succession of fools who pass stupid laws, because they think they know better than others, just to get their name in headlines.

Oh they are not finished yet, wait til a dogs breakfast of a hate speech law is done, then you'll see a stupid law :rolleyes:

Bog Trotter99

tudderone wrote: »

Oh they are not finished yet, wait til a dogs breakfast of a hate speech law is done, then you'll see a stupid law :rolleyes:

It would have been bought in a few years ago but they hit a big problem which they still haven't been able to overcome.

They just can't work out how they they can still blame the English/British and Brexit for all the problems of Ireland and still have a hate law.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

If there’s a reward it is illegal, just like if you give a friend a €5 for dropping you somewhere etc they’re in breach of Psv regulations.
The next question is how enforceable is it?

In the 2nd most litigation-happy country in the Western world?
You'd soon find out how good your friends are if one of them bites on a steel shot pellet or their kids gets a slight stomach upset from eating your free wild game meal.
I've found two things Ireland does take seriously... Their farming image and practices and protecting such, and their safe green food and traceability. So i'd kind of say if there was a complaint about something like this, they will be shifting to find out what's this about? Esp if it was in a group setting like a charitable donation to some welfare operation?

Sika98k

Rows Grower wrote: »

There's no splitting hairs, the law is the law.

It is not illegal to give oven ready venison to a friend.

Well it’s illegal to give your friend venison hamburgers you made as that is processing. ! That’s what the FSAI said to a friend of mine who was doing no more than any hunter does with his venison, steaks, burgers , sausages, etc. He made a damn good salami also.