Forced to work from home

jakiah

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

I wish I could live in your mind for one hour. You have such a misalgned view of what I can only describe as a dystopian universe - compared to the one the rest of us live in.

Mic 1972

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

That's actually true.
If employees are advised to look after their own tax liability the company still remains liable in the end

micosoft

Padre_Pio wrote: »

From what I've been told, the hot desk system is like a library. Not guaranteed the same desk, so I'll have to bring everything in and out of work each day. I have equipment that's not very portable too, so I'll need a trolley. About a quarter of the staff are in the same boat as me.

There was talk that the quarter would have permanent desk space (which also comes with storage and shelves) but that leaves 75% of employees vying for 25% of the space, so it was denied.

I'll have to see how things pan out, but it feels like a kick in the teeth after a year of working from home with COVID. I was prepared to give up space in my house, since there was no option, but I feel like I'm being taken advantage of now.

It does not make sense that you have equipment. How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

kathleen37

jakiah wrote: »

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

This is by far and away the best response in this thread. Made me laugh. Rest of thread; making me cry.

Padre_Pio

micosoft wrote: »

It does not make sense that you have equipment.

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.

How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

kathleen37

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.


I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

Blazer

I work for a large IT multinational company and they have provided us with extra monitors, chairs, keyboard,mice etc since last year.
Of course we're being given the option of returning to the office but I've gone for a hybrid option..1 day a week in the office...Its grand for me though..I have a dedicated music room which I also use for work.
But a lot of people don't have the luxury of this. Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.
I remember at the time my company offered fulltime WFH a few years ago you were given 3.5k of a grant to buy office supplies etc and they had to meet health and safety standards and were physically checked on this. Seems to be gone now though

Mic 1972

kathleen37 wrote: »

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

From my experience, in my job I require 2 monitors which i have set up at home. In our office only some desks were equipped with 2 monitors, most desk had just one monitor.


In a floating environment where i get to use whatever desk is available the company would have to equip every desk with 2 monitors in order to accommodate members of my team, which would be a waste of resource since most people only need one.

C3PO

Blazer wrote: »

Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Sunny Disposition

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

Padre_Pio

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

C3PO

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

C3PO

C3PO wrote: »

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

I'd love to meet the CEO/CFO of a company where financial sense isn't the primary driver.

"Hey CEO, would you like to lower costs?"

"Nah, I'm not driven by financial sense."

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Ergonomic inspectors are not listed as essential services do they could not do house visits

Our reviews were done with pictures beforehand and a video call after. Nobody was required to travel.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't know where you worked before, but I've never worked anywhere that colleagues didn't socialise outside work, go for pints on Fridays, have sports groups and fantasy leagues, organise team-building exercises that were an excuse for a piss-up.
There's a good amount of people who've gotten married to colleagues too.

I miss all of that.

Socialise outside work........can't happen now anyway, but nothing to stop you going for pints of a Friday when the pubs are back open
Sports / fantasy leagues..........I run two of them in work myself, can't see why they've stopped
Team-building......I'm on the Social Committee and have organised stuff that is drink orientated as well, again It's better to do in person but not essential.

The only thing in your list that you can't do is go for a few pints with workmates, but sure you can't do that now anyway, even if everyone was in the office. Nothing stopping that from happening once the pubs are open.

Mastroianni

floorpie wrote: »

Vaccinations aren't expected to be completed until September and I suppose we should anticipate delays, so personally I couldn't imagine return to office until Oct/Nov. Who knows.

I don't want to questioning your assertions but...are you sure?
I don't know if you have witnessed what happened in city center last sunny days. I'm looking forward to see the 7th June reopening. I have read somewhere that the Indian strain of the virus is already here. Do the math.
I believe that by September/October cases will be risen up to have a curve more or less under control (depending on vaccination) for Xmas shoppings. The situation will be eased not before than late Q2 2022.
IMHO!

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine being the type of individual who goes around counting posts and keeping arbitrary scores on boards forums...

I'll continue to post my opinion, regardless of your feelings or personal attacks.

Don't like it? You are free to ignore me.

Cheers.

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

Blazer

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Lower power requirements is a huge win for companies.
Less internet bandwidth required, less onsite resources ie canteens etc.
All win win.
My company is now shutting down sales offices worldwide with less than 25 staff as COVID has proved staff can WFH and still get the job done.

Mrs OBumble

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

Imagine being that sad, though? Going around counting people's posts (automated or not) to score some kind of "point".

L L

Padre_Pio

GreeBo wrote: »

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

That was a week ago.

ineedeuro

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

We are only 16 months into WFH en masse due to COvid.
People are not moving around the country because of lock down after lockdown after lockdown
Tenants don't have to move from properties even if not paying rent.

Somehow I think with all of this going on, I doubt any company has "serious turnover" or have enough data top suggest WFH is an issue.

No company should just focus on people already in place, they should focus on them but also on attracting new talent and keeping them.

ineedeuro

ineedeuro wrote: »

We are only 16 months into WFH en masse due to COvid.
People are not moving around the country because of lock down after lockdown after lockdown
Tenants don't have to move from properties even if not paying rent.

Somehow I think with all of this going on, I doubt any company has "serious turnover" or have enough data top suggest WFH is an issue.

Well put. I'll call it for what it is. It's total ****ing lies.

Backstreet Moyes

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

Do you mind if I ask how many jobs you have since you said this about one company you are working for?

What I find strange is you have more than one job, you distrust employees you can't see in person so you obviously are not some intern on low wages, but yet you can only afford somewhere where the only place you can work from is a kitchen table that is so tiny the laptop barely fits.

Something really is not adding up.

Christy42

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

That seems to be a serious issue with how the company is run. My first thought is why does no one want to work for them? Not damn the office location is no longer trapping people to a job they don't want.

Mrs OBumble

Nuts102 wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask how many jobs you have since you said this about one company you are working for?

What I find strange is you have more than one job, you distrust employees you can't see in person so you obviously are not some intern on low wages, but yet you can only afford somewhere where the only place you can work from is a kitchen table that is so tiny the laptop barely fits.

Something really is not adding up.

Right now, I have one main contract of about 30 hours/week, and a 2nd contract for a smaller, related company for about 10 hours/week. Also have some side-gig website / consultancy work.

Got laid of with the last recession in 2008, back to professional work a couple of years later but made redundant in 2016. Have done a variety of contracts since, some quite senior / responsible, some not: I'd rather be working than scratching, and have a range of skills and an attitude to be busy. So have experienced a wider range of workplaces than many.

I can afford a larger place. In practice, though, there's a housing shortage. There are few places to rent anyway, and some landlords new turn places over every 6 months to avoid getting trapped into a Part 4 tenancy. I'm in a very small, city-centre apartment which is incredibly well-located, both for social life (when places are open!) and also for taking work on either side of the city. The landlord is decent, the place is nice, the rent is reasonable. Put these together and it would be mad to move. But it's not suitable for WFH.

Happy now?

Flinty997

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

The only reason people don't move is inertia. The modern workplace does not reward loyality. If a company is having a lot of churn, it's unlikely to be solely due to WFH unless it's in genuinely in an awful location with zero other opportunities near it. More likely there's a cascade of issues, and WFH was the final straw...

Flinty997

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Right now, I have one ....

You should have ignored the inference.

The defence of someones argument does not require another user to give personal information. It should stand on its own merits.

GreeBo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

If your employer already has a permanent establishment in Ireland then it's a totally different situation to the one in question.

If an employee works from another country then the employer can be liable for corporation tax in that country did to the employee being deemed to have established a permanent residence in that country.

The employers tax situation is the biggest problem, not the employees.

GreeBo

Padre_Pio wrote: »

That was a week ago.

And?

ineedeuro

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Right now, I have one main contract of about 30 hours/week, and a 2nd contract for a smaller, related company for about 10 hours/week. Also have some side-gig website / consultancy work.

Happy now?

No need to provide any of that info.

Still doesn't change the fact the lockdown and WFH only start 16 months ago so no company will have enough data to suggest that employee leaving is because of WFH. Which is what you posted.

Also you live in an apartment which is not suitable for WFH. So go into the office. The constant posts about "WFH fanboys" etc is childish, in reality the only reason you have an issue with WFH is because it doesn't suit you. Nothing about the actual concept which is what the majority of people are discussing.

If you had a larger apartment with a spare room you would be probably on this thread calling people "work from office fanboys"

oisinog

ineedeuro wrote: »

No need to provide any of that info.

Still doesn't change the fact the lockdown and WFH only start 16 months ago so no company will have enough data to suggest that employee leaving is because of WFH. Which is what you posted.

Also you live in an apartment which is not suitable for WFH. So go into the office. The constant posts about "WFH fanboys" etc is childish, in reality the only reason you have an issue with WFH is because it doesn't suit you. Nothing about the actual concept which is what the majority of people are discussing.

If you had a larger apartment with a spare room you would be probably on this thread calling people "work from office fanboys"

Although I agree it is a bit early to see if Chrun is down to working from home I can see that it has had an impact on my own company. As I am based on the North we have people living in Belfast now taking jobs in London as they can work from home. So we have someone earning London money living in Belfast.

As I said earlier people will always see the negative in working from a location but at the same time if the would take the blinkers off they could see the massivae advantages it could have.

GreeBo

ineedeuro wrote: »

Still doesn't change the fact the lockdown and WFH only start 16 months ago so no company will have enough data to suggest that employee leaving is because of WFH. Which is what you posted.

Its not too early to gather stats if you have people leaving any you ask them why and they say its due to WFH.

ineedeuro

oisinog wrote: »

Although I agree it is a bit early to see if Chrun is down to working from home I can see that it has had an impact on my own company. As I am based on the North we have people living in Belfast now taking jobs in London as they can work from home. So we have someone earning London money living in Belfast.

As I said earlier people will always see the negative in working from a location but at the same time if the would take the blinkers off they could see the massivae advantages it could have.

Maybe, Im not saying it wont happen but that was always an option. I have family living in the UK, they live outside london and if they have to go to the office they get a train in. They could move to Ireland for the amount of times they need to actually go into an office but prefer to live in the UK

Its the same in Ireland, you had people driving stupid distances to get into Dublin because they wanted "Dublin wages" yet complaining about the time in a car.

At this stage it is far far too early to see a huge shift in focus. We haven't even got out of total lockdown. Majority of offices are still closed because of Covid. So these options hjad always been available, people are just more aware of it now. I know of one company who has hundred of people sitting in Ireland and they look after other european countries, they have zero to do with the day to day business of the irish operations.

Mic 1972

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not too early to gather stats if you have people leaving any you ask them why and they say its due to WFH.

The opposite dynamic probably applies too, as many may be unhappy about scarifying a spare room/living room to set up a home office.


WFH is not a win-win solution for all.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

The opposite dynamic probably applies too, as many may be unhappy about scarifying a spare room/living room to set up a home office.


WFH is not a win-win solution for all.

Which has been repeated multiples times and everyone says they are aware

Mastroianni

Mic 1972 wrote: »

The opposite dynamic probably applies too, as many may be unhappy about scarifying a spare room/living room to set up a home office.


WFH is not a win-win solution for all.

and is a win-win situation doing 1-2 hours commuting to an office in where you can do what you are currently doing at home?
win-win situation would be move away from Dublin and live in a better place with more normal rent.

Mrs OBumble

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not too early to gather stats if you have people leaving any you ask them why and they say its due to WFH.

Agreed.

What this company is seeing is that many new hires are leaving. Reasons given vary: got offered permanent, personal, family, none.

But the ones who have stayed are the ones who live in Galway and visited the office once to pick up equipment.

Ones who only got the courier delivery got exactly the same induction - but they still kept looking around for better jobs.

Mrs OBumble

ineedeuro wrote: »

. The constant posts about "WFH fanboys" etc is childish, in reality the only reason you have an issue with WFH is because it doesn't suit you. Nothing about the actual concept which is what the majority of people are discussing.

Constant? I've used that phrase exactly once.

Using personal experience to describe why WFH is not suitable for some people (maybe about a third of the workforce) is discussing the general concept.

Your post reinforces my thoughts about reading comprehension.

Mic 1972

Mastroianni wrote: »

and is a win-win situation doing 1-2 hours commuting to an office in where you can do what you are currently doing at home?
win-win situation would be move away from Dublin and live in a better place with more normal rent.

My commute was 5-10 minutes for example, instead i now have 0 minutes commute, higher bills and a living room permanently turned into an office.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

My commute was 5-10 minutes for example, instead i now have 0 minutes commute, higher bills and a living room permanently turned into an office.

You should work in the office then
As said WFH doesnt suit everyone and work in office doesn't suit everyone

Mic 1972

ineedeuro wrote: »

You should work in the office then
As said WFH doesnt suit everyone and work in office doesn't suit everyone

We don't have the option.


People made arrangements to accommodate WFH during the pandemic, pushing this as a permanent solution seems unfair as not everyone is equipped for a home office

jakiah

Mic 1972 wrote: »

We don't have the option.

Have you started to look for a new job already?

Mic 1972

jakiah wrote: »

Have you started to look for a new job already?

I like my job

jakiah

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I like my job

Conditions change in lots of jobs people like. Offices move location, departments are restructured as business requirments change, buyouts, merges & takeovers happen, redundancies happen.

Sounds like you are going to like it a lot less if they start making you work from home when you dont have the facilities to accomodate. Why would you not be looking for something else?

Mic 1972

jakiah wrote: »

Conditions change in lots of jobs people like. Offices move location, departments are restructured as business requirments change, buyouts, merges & takeovers happen, redundancies happen.

Sounds like you are going to like it a lot less if they start making you work from home when you dont have the facilities to accomodate. Why would you not be looking for something else?

as previously stated, I like my job and I'm not interested in looking for another one just because the company made a decision to put on employees the burden of providing for their own home office.

I do find it unfair tho, this is the point that some people are making

jakiah

Mic 1972 wrote: »

as previously stated, I like my job and I'm not interested in looking for another one just because the company made a decision to put on employees the burden of providing for their own home office.

Cant be that much of an issue for you if you are just going to accept this change and work from home permanently then.

Mrs OBumble

Mic 1972 wrote: »

as previously stated, I like my job and I'm not interested in looking for another one just because the company made a decision to put on employees the burden of providing for their own home office.

I do find it unfair tho, this is the point that some people are making

A substantial change to terms and conditions, eg requiring you to provide a secure workspace as well as labour, should be negotiated. If you cannot reach agreement, then the employer should be paying redundancy.

If your employer is pressing you to accept unsuitable long term WFH , which causes you to think about quitting, then investigate constructive dismissal.

Mic 1972

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A substantial change to terms and conditions, dg requiring you to provide a secure workspace as well as labour, should be negotiated. If you cannot reach agreement, then the employer should be paying redundancy.

If your employer is pressing you to accept unsuitable long term WFH , which causes you to think about quitting, then investigate constructive dismissal.

But it's not causing me to think about quitting
It's causing me to think that permanent WFH was pushed onto employees with a degree of selfishness from employers and little understanding of employees ability to accommodate