Forced to work from home

Swindled

Some younger people miss the office, and need more office experience.
Some people miss the politics and manipulating they can get up to in the office.
Some have a difficult home situation, and/or not able to set up much of a home office
Some get lonely
Some don't miss the office at all, know their work well, and get far more work done at home
Some like the mixture
Some don't miss the unsustainable commute and sitting in traffic
Business owners love the lower costs
Middle managers miss their office status

One size does not fit all.

Calhoun

The horse has bolted on this one a bit, it's much cheaper having folk work from home or a hybrid version.

Depending on how much the post covid recession hits it may not be much of an option if you want to stay employed.

limnam

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I worked for one MNC where a home-inspection was part of the process for getting approval for WFH.

I should have said except you as you've worked for everyone at this point.

onrail

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Basically say 200 employees, 100 desks.
50 employees need a permanent desk for laptops, monitors, equipment etc (in our opinion), so that leaves 50 desks for 150 employees, which was a no go.

About a year before Covid, my employer began hot desking and flexible working, albeit with room for more than 50%. Everyone was given a workstation laptop, as powerful as required for intensive graphics, processing etc. a 'tray' and a locker. Each hotdesk has two fixed monitors, keyboard, mouse and a docking station.

At the end of every day, we have to clear our desks and stick our stuff in the locker. Of course there was uproar at first, but after a week or two everyone just settled into a new rythm and appreciated the flexibility. There were occasional days where you couldn't get seated in a desired area, but those were few and far-between.

Ultimately, people just adjust and get ready to complain the next time change comes around.

whippet

It does not suit everyone - some people need to get out of the house for the day for various reasons.

Personally it suits me perfectly - I have been doing it for years - maybe pop in to the office once a week to meet up for coffee or a lunch other than that - dedicated office in the house. The wife also works from home and has done for years - so we have a really good routine. Each of us has an office in the house - and if the door is closed it’s do not disturb.

If I was younger and in a house share or at home with the folks I don’t think i could WFH ... it just would be a total ball ache.

Employers need to accommodate both - when deciding on the policy they should take in to account people’s preference. And those who want a space in the office it should be accommodated.

It might turn out that 50% or more will want to work from home so only providing 50% or less of the normal desk / office space is still a good change and cost saving

lawred2

floorpie wrote: »

They've been standard in some places but you were essentially assured a space to work, which you wouldn't be here.

You were never assured of a space to work under hot desk systems.

If you were, it wouldn't be called hot desking.

lawred2

whippet wrote: »

It does not suit everyone - some people need to get out of the house for the day for various reasons.

Personally it suits me perfectly - I have been doing it for years - maybe pop in to the office once a week to meet up for coffee or a lunch other than that - dedicated office in the house. The wife also works from home and has done for years - so we have a really good routine. Each of us has an office in the house - and if the door is closed it’s do not disturb.

If I was younger and in a house share or at home with the folks I don’t think i could WFH ... it just would be a total ball ache.

Employers need to accommodate both - when deciding on the policy they should take in to account people’s preference. And those who want a space in the office it should be accommodated.

It might turn out that 50% or more will want to work from home so only providing 50% or less of the normal desk / office space is still a good change and cost saving

To be fair, each of you having you own dedicated office at home wouldn't be the norm.

So it's not exactly unexpected that such a system works for you.

Try being 26 and in a house share with 4 others and have such a system foisted upon you.

Hot desking certainly works for some people but I don't think it's a good idea to apply it company wide. There has to be some recognition that there will be some home situations that can't facilitate hot desking for all.

(Edit that came across as being in some sort of disagreement with you.. I was actually agreeing with you )

ineedeuro

I dont think the company is forcing you. I would expect they think the majority of people want to work from home. I have seen multiple companies are doing the same now. They have seen how WFH actual can work for them and employee wont just disappear for the day

Why not put an email together explaining why you want a dedicated desk and request it, first to manager. If not then to HR. Not telling you what to include but if you mention mental health etc you need the space I can't see any company having an issue

I have worked in a hot desk office since 2006. Still we had a number of members of staff who had dedicated desks which you didn't use unless it was past 9.30 and they hadn't arrived. This was allow people to have monitors/keyboards etc.

whippet

lawred2 wrote: »

To be fair, each of you having you own dedicated office at home wouldn't be the norm.

So it's not exactly unexpected that such a system works for you.

Try being 26 and in a house share with 4 others and have such a system foisted upon you.

Hot desking certainly works for some people but I don't think it's a good idea to apply it company wide. There has to be some recognition that there will be some home situations that can't facilitate hot desking for all.

And that is what I said.

In our company those in their 20s tend to work from the office - they live in apartments / house shares and find it impossible to get comfortable / productive.

Also there are a few who just want to get out of the house and these are accommodated.

Remote working /working from home if adopted on a wide scale will have knock on effects for those who still need / choose to go in to the office. LEss traffic and less congestion for one. While I’d hope that eventually you would see less pressure on housing demand in the city’s / suburbs with an associated price drop (probably not going to happen due to constant government interference)

With less people having to commute - local towns and villages should see a resurgence in activity with residents spending more time and money locally when they don’t need to commute.

I know in my case we live rurally and we get more time to participate in local groups / sports and spend much more money in the local economy than when we had to commute every day

Calahonda52

floorpie wrote: »

I'm also hearing rumours of the same thing in my place.

Will I be paid for the company's use of my facilities (room, equipment, electricity, heating etc)? Or is this essentially a permanent pay cut and worse conditions?

I'm especially annoyed that it seems like they'll mandate a day or two in office a week. So not only will the employer get free use of my rented house, but I can't even move to a low cost area of the country.

I'm very annoyed by the whole thing but it seems most people are in favour of WFH.

If you can prove the cost piece that is wholly incurred just for doing the paid work, then you may have a case.
.
Better to look at the e-working from home allowance of 3.2 per day you spend at home, eg its worth 63.40 for 20 days, its not taxed so same as 127 gross/month.
.
63.4 net/month is 760 per annum.
.
If you try deduct expense from Revenue against your tax for the work expense they will need paperwork: if you are too aggressive they will audit you.
If even 10% additional costs are incurred, the e-working allowance is still the way to go, as it the 760 equals the work related costs, this suggests you energy bills are 7,600 pa

floorpie

Calahonda52 wrote: »

If you can prove the cost piece that is wholly incurred just for doing the paid work, then you may have a case.
.
Better to look at the e-working from home allowance

Wasn't aware of this, thanks!

Dark Phoenix

I’ve worked from home since 2015 and love it. I hate commuting and when the company moved further away from my home I started home working as I just cannot spend 3-4 hours a day sat in traffic wasting time. It honest used to affect me mentally as I felt like I was wasting my life crawling along the motorway bumper to bumper. I used to end up working late to allow traffic to ease enough to leave the industrial estate. I’d never go back to commuting. My apartment is tiny but I’ve a desk in the corner of the siting room / kitchen area and I’m fine with that as the loss of space more than makes up for having several extra hours every day

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

Wasn't aware of this, thanks!

It’s amazing to me that, while telling people to work from home, some employers seemingly didn’t point out this allowance and advise on how to avail of it

As been posted on the other much longer ongoing WFH thread... the experience people have had of WFH during the panedemic when they had no other option is not the same experience as WFH during non-covid times. WFH will feel very different when things have reopened again and its possible to go somewhere for your lunch, or go out after work to socialise/meet friends.

Forsa (the public sector union) is seeking to include an "opt out" for those who don't wish to WFH, so no one in the public sector is going to be "forced" to work from home. However, the way I look at it is, the more people who are happy to WFH, the more hot / permanent desk spaces will be free for those who don't. I'm quite happy to stay as I am working from home full time and leave the office spaces available for someone else who wants one. I'm not opposed to going in 1/2 days a week, if business needs require it, but in the last 15 months I can't think of a single instance where attendance in the office would have been necessary from a business needs point of view. My role does not include fulfilling my work colleagues need for social interaction!

Bicyclette

I love working from home. My old commute wasn't very far - wasn't much longer than my normal daily walk. BUT one thing I do miss is the informal chats on the stairs or the corridor. The informal information sharing. The quick questions that you don't want to put in an email or ask in an online meeting. The informal information sharing might be work related or skills related. But it all added up.

I don't have a formal office space, my corner of the couch isn't very ergonomic. But my back and neck are in so much better shape since I stared working from home. However I do have a lot of light - I sit by a window. I don't have constant noise or distractions. And if I need some air, I don't have to run down several flights of stairs and clock out. I can just step over to the patio door.

There are pros and cons of each scenario. A win-win situation would be to try and harvest the best of both worlds and make them available to all employees.

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

If you don't have a dedicated space, WFH sucks, if you do, its great

disagree, i have a shomera, all kitted out, i probably have a better set up at home than i do in work, i still miss the office.

Miss the interaction with my colleagues, the odd lunch, the even less frequent night out, tbh i even miss the 35 min of peace on the dart every morning.

You like WFH good for you, for anyone of a social persuasion where work isnt a slog of a commute getting into the office isnt all bad.

Cyrus

Qrt wrote: »

I know it’s different but I found college from home absolutely diabolical. I’ve met nine of my fellow classmates (I switched courses) and it’s f**king awful. It’s turned me off the idea of WfH for a very long time, at least until I’m in the position of having a separate office anyway.

i have to say whatever about having to wfh as someone in their 30s or 40s with a family and space to do it, there are some benefits,

i really really pity students at the moment that can attend university (the best years of your life taken away imo) and people who are just starting their careers, absolute nightmare.

Vegeta

floorpie wrote: »

It seems to me that people with kids, or who have nice offices at home, love it.

Definitely not, working from home with kids is a nightmare for some

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

As been posted on the other much longer ongoing WFH thread... the experience people have had of WFH during the panedemic when they had no other option is not the same experience as WFH during non-covid times. WFH will feel very different when things have reopened again and its possible to go somewhere for your lunch, or go out after work to socialise/meet friends.

Forsa (the public sector union) is seeking to include an "opt out" for those who don't wish to WFH, so no one in the public sector is going to be "forced" to work from home. However, the way I look at it is, the more people who are happy to WFH, the more hot / permanent desk spaces will be free for those who don't. I'm quite happy to stay as I am working from home full time and leave the office spaces available for someone else who wants one. I'm not opposed to going in 1/2 days a week, if business needs require it, but in the last 15 months I can't think of a single instance where attendance in the office would have been necessary from a business needs point of view. My role does not include fulfilling my work colleagues need for social interaction!

It's a new world we're entering over next few years post covid, not all employees OR employers will embrace the change up ahead equally. I see no point in comparison between private / public....... like pensions, conditions, sick pay etc there is no benefit in comparing the two. Over the last 15months I've gone in about 1 ( long, 12hr) day a week but, in reality, if I had gone in half a day per fortnight it wouldn't have made any difference.....there was very little I couldn't do WFH. The one thing I DO miss is that Franke coffee machine in canteen.....used to visit that lady 5/6 times a day & she always delivered.

Cyrus

OSI wrote: »

I know a few of them are the type that spend the day hopping between desks for the bants and get **** all work done.

and i see people who are never online when you want them when they are supposed to WFH, whats your point?

wasters will always be wasters, at home or in the office, but they will probably be worse at home.

The ergonomics etc. conformity will only be an issue when John or Mary have a work place accident in their home. THEN it will be taken seriously.

As for WFH, what will people have to complain about, no 'oh, my gawd, I was cut off in traffic this morning, and I'd only just begun my 2 hour journey to work.' or 'What a bitch Sarah is, she took the last bundle of A4 paper.'

You have my sympathies.

It'll really benefit those that commute to the likes of London or even Dublin. But, some employers WILL NOT allow employees to work from home due to lack of trust issues. Those that want to commute to work just need to find those employers

ineedeuro

It's a funny old World. Prior to lockdown everyone wanted to work from home. Well the majority anyway

Now people are getting the option to WFH and they want rent paid etc.
If the office turns around and tell the same people they can no longer WFH and have to go into office they will start complaining about commute time.
Some people you just can't please

piplip87

I'm in the opposite position. Working from home and and they are adamant that we will have to go back to the office. Quite simply because some have taken the absolute piss. The joys of working with people who are only here to avoid a gap in their CV.

Saying that I love WFH but a big part of that is I have a 3 hour round trip commute and we had a smallish wardrobe room off the main bedroom which is now a fairly comfortable office.

I will leaving this job as their plenty of full time WFH roles going in this sector.

As for financially the commute costs about 100 quid a week. I have no problem putting a portion of that for heating during the winter. The Internet and Electricity bills would be there regardless.

You cannot beat eating dinner at 5:30 with the family everyday

OSI

OSI wrote: »

The HR team here did a whole bunch of surveying and profiling before deciding on their future office plans as the office lease was coming up for renewal. /QUOTE]

Slightly off topic.....but the amount of quality urban office space that leases aren't being renewed on after 2022/23 is ominous

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

and i see people who are never online when you want them when they are supposed to WFH, whats your point?

wasters will always be wasters, at home or in the office, but they will probably be worse at home.

But then deal with them. If they are wasters in the office and also cant be trusted to work from home, then they should be performance managed out of the company. Why are they still employed?

There are many reasons why WFH does not work for some individuals or some types of company, but fear of poor performance should not be a reason that people are pulled back into the office

ineedeuro

One of the huge advantage of WFH is people don't need to live beside the office. Instead of spending 500k for a tiny house they can move outside major cities. This will not only help with pollution in major cities but also regeneration of smaller towns.

If you are sharing in a 4 bed house paying mental rent, you could probably rent a 4 bed house for the same price an hour outside Dublin. If you are not working everyday in the city why do you need to be based in it? it's not like you can go to the pub :-)

Padre_Pio

OSI wrote: »

The HR team here did a whole bunch of surveying and profiling before deciding on their future office plans as the office lease was coming up for renewal.

Had a similar survey at work.
We have a workforce with varying requirements and varying levels of experience, yet everyone's vote counts the same.

The overwhelming result that people wanted a mix of office and WFH. The sentiment was that people would like the choice to kick back at home the odd friday with paperwork. There was no mention at the time that the company was downsizing and people would lose desks.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

... tbh i even miss the 35 min of peace on the dart every morning.

Nothing stopping you continuing to do this. Although, you might want to cut the journey in half in the morning. Head off on the dart, only go half the distance and head home... to work.

whippet

as with all organisational change it needs to be managed - how it's managed it up to the company but generally these things need a lead in period and done in phases.

Since we decided on a flexible arrangement 4 years ago our staff retention has never been higher and we have opened up our recruitment nationwide - which is a win win.

Some of our employees have moved out of dublin - back home if you like.

As for productivity - if you can't trust your employees to work from home / remotely you have the wrong employees - simple as that.

shesty

Same here.Most people want a mix so they are allowing a max number of days per week from home and I think there has veen mention of hot desking.
I notice a town near us has converted an old building into a small shared working space with desks, broadband and the like.More of those spaces would probably be the ideal, at least people whose home set up wasn't suitable for WFH might have an option to use a space like that a few times a week.

Wildly Boaring

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nothing stopping you continuing to do this. Although, you might want to cut the journey in half in the morning. Head off on the dart, only go half the distance and head home... to work.

Or even go for a 30 min walk in the morning and at lunch?
Peaceful and not sitting on your hole.

To the OP
I do not agree that you are being force to work from home.
You are being forced to hotdesk.
If there comes a day when there are no hotdesks available then you are being forced to work from home and on that day I would escalate to HR.

What is the mysterious equipment that you must carry in and out daily requiring a trolley?

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

But then deal with them. If they are wasters in the office and also cant be trusted to work from home, then they should be performance managed out of the company. Why are they still employed?

There are many reasons why WFH does not work for some individuals or some types of company, but fear of poor performance should not be a reason that people are pulled back into the office

thanks for your concern, youll be happy to know that due to worse performance wfh a number have been performanced managed out

and please dont misrepresent me, a poster said some of the people who wanted to be in the office were not working, i said its also an issue with people wfh, i never said it was a reason not to allow WFH, in the main we have seen excellent productivity.

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing stopping you continuing to do this. Although, you might want to cut the journey in half in the morning. Head off on the dart, only go half the distance and head home... to work.

great idea. thanks for that.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But, some employers WILL NOT allow employees to work from home due to lack of trust issues. Those that want to commute to work just need to find those employers

Exactly. If being in the office is so important to you then find employers who falsely believe that things like a firm handshake, a suit and tie and micromanaging are essential business tools. Because I hate to burst your bubble, the pandemic has blown all of that out of the water.

circadian

We've hire more than we can accommodate in the office now. The plan is to offer WFH for those who want it, some people have moved down the country too. There will be hotdesks and permanent desks for those who prefer to go to the office. I think this is the best approach as I work with quite a few people who are in house shares and don't really have any personal space away from what has become their workspace so it's completely understandable to wish to return to the office.

I think striking a balance like this is key and maybe your employer is a little gung ho into the plans since most people will welcome the change. I'd bring it up with HR/Manager that you'd prefer to be in the office full time and see where that goes, in the end, you're being honest about what would be more productive for you. If they wish to follow the less productive route, then it's on them.

ednwireland

what if the eir fibre stops 200yards from your house, imagine cant be bothered, poor mobile signal. an you have 2mb broadband (on a good day !)

Cyrus

this is like the endless cycling / motorists debates in the dun laoghaire thread.

can the WFH fans not understand that some people prefer the office, whats it to you?

Maybe you like to sit in your bedroom half dressed all day and on zoom calls for 10 hours, good for you, enjoy it.

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. If being in the office is so important to you then find employers who falsely believe that things like a firm handshake, a suit and tie and micromanaging are essential business tools. Because I hate to burst your bubble, the pandemic has blown all of that out of the water.

WFH is fine for established professionals who already have their relationships built within an organisation, what about the new starters, trainees, graduates.

Let them all WFH for good?

to think every company can exist into the future with everyone WFH is fairytale nonsense.

KaneToad

Cyrus wrote: »

this is like the endless cycling / motorists debates in the dun laoghaire thread.

can the WFH fans not understand that some people prefer the office, whats it to you?

Maybe you like to sit in your bedroom half dressed all day and on zoom calls for 10 hours, good for you, enjoy it.

I think the people who enjoy the WFH option are not the kind of person to work 10 hour days. I'm one of those. I do the bare minimum contracted hours. No interest in overtime.

I get it that people like going into the office. But I think WFH models are better for balanced regional development and overall social advancement.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

WFH is fine for established professionals who already have their relationships built within an organisation, what about the new starters, trainees, graduates.

Let them all WFH for good?

to think every company can exist into the future with everyone WFH is fairytale nonsense.

Our office is going with a hybrid approach on a permanent basis. So I'll eventually meet new starters there.

But to address your concern, grads and new starters have already joined us during the pandemic and have been successfully integrated.

Like I said, the old world is gone. Firm handshake no longer mandatory. Welcome to the 21st century.

whippet

ednwireland wrote: »

what if the eir fibre stops 200yards from your house, imagine cant be bothered, poor mobile signal. an you have 2mb broadband (on a good day !)

that is why we need remote working hubs all over the country and from what I've read this is happening and the government are backing it

KaneToad

KaneToad wrote: »

I think the people who enjoy the WFH option are not the kind of person to work 10 hour days. I'm one of those. I do the bare minimum contracted hours. No interest in overtime.

I don't understand people who work long hours. When I see people doing that, I don't see a hard worker, I see inefficiency.

PokeHerKing

floorpie wrote: »

It seems to me that people with kids, or who have nice offices at home, love it.

Personally I'd rather a commute than having to be in my bedroom for 18+ hours a day, and I can't believe companies seem to be segueing into this being "normal" and others defending it

Given the dynamics of most offices you should find a natural equilibrium develop then. Unless the staff are heavily weighted towards college grads etc the split should work itself out really.

Id bite your hand off for my company to roll out similar. Thoughts of going back into the office full-time

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

Our office is going with a hybrid approach on a permanent basis. So I'll eventually meet new starters there.

But to address your concern, grads and new starters have already joined us during the pandemic and have been successfully integrated.

Like I said, the old world is gone. Firm handshake no longer mandatory. Welcome to the 21st century.

how do you know grads have been successfully integrated? the proof of that wont come for 3-5 years until they are moved into positions of increasing responsibility.

In your opinion the old world is gone, you seem to be happy about it, were you unhappy in the office enviroment?

KaneToad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand people who work long hours. When I see people doing that, I don't see a hard worker, I see inefficiency.

If you can't get the job done in the contracted hours there is something wrong:

1) with you

Or

2) with the job

El Tarangu

I live in a biggish apartment by myself, so I don't mind the WFH, but some of the rationalisations on this thread from its proponents are mental...

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Change is good when you look at any situation you can see a glass half full or half empty. If you are renting and the place you are in is unsuitable look for a place that suits better. Maybe this is the chance to move a distance and buy a cheap one or two bed apartment or house.

"If your employer unilaterally changes your employment conditions, don't be a sourpuss - just go and buy a house!"

Cyrus

KaneToad wrote: »

I think the people who enjoy the WFH option are not the kind of person to work 10 hour days. I'm one of those. I do the bare minimum contracted hours. No interest in overtime.

I get it that people like going into the office. But I think WFH models are better for balanced regional development and overall social advancement.

the irony is a lot of people complain they do longer hours wfh as they dont have the seperation from work, thats a personal thing to work on i suppose.

Cyrus

KaneToad wrote: »

If you can't get the job done in the contracted hours there is something wrong:

1) with you

Or

2) with the job

true in some cases, if you are someone who works in mergers and acquisitions for example that kind of rhetoric wont get you too far though.

whippet

Over the last number of years I have found the best way to disconnect after a day of working from home is to go out for a walk.

I will go to the gym or for a walk every day at 5pm ... this is like the commute and when you get back to the house the day's work is long left behind you

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

how do you know grads have been successfully integrated? the proof of that wont come for 3-5 years until they are moved into positions of increasing responsibility.

In your opinion the old world is gone, you seem to be happy about it, were you unhappy in the office enviroment?

Because I'm good at my job, that's how I know they are integrating well. I interact with them directly through calls, or indirectly through their work. If you can't assess performance remotely then you're not a good manager.

I wasn't unhappy in the office, I just thought it was terribly inefficient. I feel vindicated in that belief, because working remotely has opened others eyes to what I saw all along.