Forced to work from home

floorpie

Cyrus wrote: »

yes but its not mandatory which is what the poster appeared to suggest. i am in singapore 2-3 times a year and you rarely see anyone in a mask.

I mirror what you're saying. Japan has a similar reputation for mask wearing but I've worked through Japan for extended periods and saw few masks in cities. Different surveys I see pre-COVID-19 show 10-30% wore them when not sick, mostly for fashion reasons or for pollen season. So, not as widespread as the rep and far from mandatory.

Obviously I don't know about since the pandemic.

KaneToad

limnam wrote: »

why would people WFH all the time not need a vaccine ?


Can they not leave their house after work like everyone else?

My point (although cumbersome) was that those who want 100% WFH could be incentivised to not get vaccine. If the policy, suggested by a poster, was that if you are not vaccinated then you should stay WFH.

Cyrus

floorpie wrote: »

I mirror what you're saying. Japan has a similar reputation for mask wearing but I've worked through Japan for extended periods and saw few masks in cities. Different surveys I see pre-COVID-19 show 10-30% wore them when not sick, mostly for fashion reasons or for pollen season. So, not as widespread as the rep and far from mandatory.

Obviously I don't know about since the pandemic.

yes and rightly or wrongly i would have assumed levels of mask wearing in japan would be higher than in other parts of asia but that could just be a bias that i picked up.

i think there is an element in more built up cities to wear them to protect from vehicle pollution as well.

average_runner

KaneToad wrote: »

My point (although cumbersome) was that those who want 100% WFH could be incentivised to not get vaccine. If the policy, suggested by a poster, was that if you are not vaccinated then you should stay WFH.

But you do other things outside work where the vaccine would be handy to have

floorpie

Cyrus wrote: »

yes and rightly or wrongly i would have assumed levels of mask wearing in japan would be higher than in other parts of asia but that could just be a bias that i picked up.

Funny, I would've assumed the same about Singapore :P

i think there is an element in more built up cities to wear them to protect from vehicle pollution as well.

It isn't a part of the office "uniform" in cities so essentially nobody wears them. Anyone can go to Google Images and type "salarymen Japan" or "Tokyo packed train", look at results pre-Covid, and see hundreds of people crammed into small spaces with zero masks.

The norm in Japan for the non believers in the thread:

https://img.kyodonews.net/english/public/images/posts/89486604bea564646800b306b36759ef/photo_l.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9f83fbdd8eee1d5f222e7edf31160877.webp

average_runner

Stark wrote: »

Before covid there were laws that meant the employer had to ensure an employee had an ergonomic workspace at home before they were allowed WFH on a regular basis. Obviously all that got waived with pandemic emergency but I imagine that duty of care will return once the pandemic is over.

I imagine for young employees living in shared rented accommodation, their at-home workspaces are far from meeting the ergonomic requirements.



I imagine people will largely fall into two camps. Older workers with families living in the commuter belt who will probably appreciate the increased flexibility of WFH when it comes to school/creche runs, not having to commute etc. And the younger workers living in cramped accommodation closer to the city who will want to get out of the house and into an environment that's setup for working and opportunities to socialise.

It is still your company responsibility to ensure you have the correct desk, seat etc at home. They should pay for it and are also liable if they do not offer it to you and you get a back injury from a bad seat etc.

Our place kitted out houses for the staff

Executioner511

Company where I work brought a lot of the staff back to the office 3 weeks ago one guy got covid and they had to shut the office for a week and tell everyone to work from home again for the foreseeable future, that is how it's gonna be for a long time as the risks are still too high to have a lot of staff in one place and companies don't want to be responsible for an outbreak as it reflects bad on them and it effects output.

Mango Joe

This thread is a very interesting example of people deciding on what suits them best & then throwing our any random nonsense at all to support and reinforce that view - no matter how ridiculous it may be.

I love going to work because I have no friends, family or people who will listen to me endlessly ranting unless they're paid to sit essentially in captivity within earshot of my constant drivel.

Its so unfair - I'd like to know when my Employer is going to come into my home and compensate me for the extra wear and tear on my toilet seat and toaster because I'm being forced to be in my own house/rented accommodation.

I'm sure there's loads of business owners or and hiring Managers out there just crying out for staff who go into work mainly for the chats or lack logic, perspective and basic common sense - Why not work for them instead and it's going to be a win, win situation all 'round????

missmelo

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

Not to scare you even more or anything but I heard, simply put if you can work from home why would they pay you a proper wage when they can outsource your work to India. So many are terrified of this happening.

floorpie

Mango Joe wrote: »

This thread is a very interesting example of people deciding on what suits them best & then throwing our any random nonsense at all to support and reinforce that view - no matter how ridiculous it may be.

Nobody's saying any of those things, please read the thread properly

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

Nobody's saying any of those things, please read the thread properly

Few people actually read posts these days. They just see what they want to see, make stupid assumptions and respond based on their broken interpretation.

oisinog

missmelo wrote: »

Not to scare you even more or anything but I heard, simply put if you can work from home why would they pay you a proper wage when they can outsource your work to India. So many are terrified of this happening.

WFH is not making companies outsource to other countries the internet is, Its much easier to communicate now than it has ever been.

Its been happening for years many companies had started to move their core contact centers back from Aisa to Ireland and the UK.

I work for a company that outsources some of our work to India because our company lacked the skilled staff and we didnt have the skillsets in Ireland at that point. At the same time but we still have thousands of people working in Ireland.

ineedeuro

missmelo wrote: »

Not to scare you even more or anything but I heard, simply put if you can work from home why would they pay you a proper wage when they can outsource your work to India. So many are terrified of this happening.

If they could have done that it would have been done already.

WFH will actually make your job more secure because the company can reduce the overhead of having people in Ireland. Companies look at overall cost, wages, pension, laptop, rent, electricity etc etc. If office location is smaller then rent etc is reduced so the cost per head is reduced making you more competitive than a person oevrseas

Christy42

oisinog wrote: »

WFH is not making companies outsource to other countries the internet is, Its much easier to communicate now than it has ever been.

Its been happening for years many companies had started to move their core contact centers back from Aisa to Ireland and the UK.

I work for a company that outsources some of our work to India because our company lacked the skilled staff and we didnt have the skillsets in Ireland at that point. At the same time but we still have thousands of people working in Ireland.

The real question is why didn't they open office in India in the first place and do those reasons still apply. If they do there is little benefit to them exporting those jobs to India or elsewhere.

As you say it was happening before and will likely to continue whether or not I work from home. Indeed modern wfh being mentioned here is largely hybrid which is hard to do from India.

Flinty997

floorpie wrote: »

Funny, I would've assumed the same about Singapore :P


It isn't a part of the office "uniform" in cities so essentially nobody wears them. Anyone can go to Google Images and type "salarymen Japan" or "Tokyo packed train", look at results pre-Covid, and see hundreds of people crammed into small spaces with zero masks.

The norm in Japan for the non believers in the thread:

https://img.kyodonews.net/english/public/images/posts/89486604bea564646800b306b36759ef/photo_l.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9f83fbdd8eee1d5f222e7edf31160877.webp

Paolo has great videos on Japan

https://youtu.be/opZAkJlG3nU

Also life where I'm from

https://youtu.be/eS0ZBadNZ1I

ELM327

missmelo wrote: »

Not to scare you even more or anything but I heard, simply put if you can work from home why would they pay you a proper wage when they can outsource your work to India. So many are terrified of this happening.

Skill gap.
We've already closed some outsourcers over the past 2 years and re-inhoused the work due to poor work quality. It's not all about the bottom line.

Flinty997

missmelo wrote: »

Not to scare you even more or anything but I heard, simply put if you can work from home why would they pay you a proper wage when they can outsource your work to India. So many are terrified of this happening.

I've been hearing that for decades, and worked with outsourcing in IT for that long also. There is value in local knowledge and local business knowledge, the domain. You can certainly outsource lots of thing's. But there are pros and cons. I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail.

oisinog

Christy42 wrote: »

The real question is why didn't they open office in India in the first place and do those reasons still apply. If they do there is little benefit to them exporting those jobs to India or elsewhere.

As you say it was happening before and will likely to continue whether or not I work from home. Indeed modern wfh being mentioned here is largely hybrid which is hard to do from India.

The company has been established for many years and primarly deals in Europe. As technology moved forward when they relaised that we didn't have the skill set in this country to meet the needs of the business the scoured the word looking for this skillset and opened an office in India.

Now as Ireland has moved forward some of the big tech companies have moved here because we now have that skill set (and a tax benefit)

floorpie

Flinty997 wrote: »

Also life where I'm from

https://youtu.be/eS0ZBadNZ1I

Ah I stayed in Asakusa for some months, what a great place

Mango Joe

floorpie wrote: »

Nobody's saying any of those things, please read the thread properly

floorpie wrote: »

I'm also hearing rumours of the same thing in my place.

Will I be paid for the company's use of my facilities (room, equipment, electricity, heating etc)? Or is this essentially a permanent pay cut and worse conditions?

I'm especially annoyed that it seems like they'll mandate a day or two in office a week. So not only will the employer get free use of my rented house, but I can't even move to a low cost area of the country.

I'm very annoyed by the whole thing but it seems most people are in favour of WFH.

Eh? You were?

I think you should measure the pile depth and integrity of your carpets and charge your Company some reasonable wear and tear fee monthly for making you work from home.

Mango Joe

Deleted User wrote: »

Few people actually read posts these days. They just see what they want to see, make stupid assumptions and respond based on their broken interpretation.

I said I'd take your point at face value and read your posts on this thread.

Shocked to then discover that you have an incredible 46 posts on this very thread!!! Just you delighting in expressing your opinion on this very deep and complex topic in 46 plus exciting new ways.....


You really can't comment on the topic of 'working' from home if you spend all of your working day spamming threads with your no doubt sage thoughts and wondrous wisdom.

ineedeuro

At this stage if every company could they would already have everyone working in the lowest paid countries possible.

The fact is they can't. Loads of reasons why

floorpie

Mango Joe wrote: »

Eh? You were?

I think you should measure the pile depth and integrity of your carpets and charge your Company some reasonable wear and tear fee monthly for making you work from home.

Yes I asked if we'd be paid for our use of electricity and heating, or should we consider this a paycut. I did not say:

Its so unfair - I'd like to know when my Employer is going to come into my home and compensate me for the extra wear and tear on my toilet seat and toaster because I'm being forced to be in my own house/rented accommodation.

I listed my work equipment above, go and work out the costs for running it all for 10 hours a day at the average price of kilowatt hour if you think I'm being petty. Just my desktop PC will cost up to €600 for the year if I'm running demanding jobs. Then work out the cost of having adequate heating through winter for 10 hours a day. At an average wage you're talking about a 2-10% "pay cut" per year. Is that really a petty consideration?

Whether this is offset by not having to commute or buy lunch out is irrelevant to me, because what I eat or how I travel are not my company's business.

That's not even factoring in wear and tear on my toilet seat.

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

Yes I asked if we'd be paid for our use of electricity and heating, or should we consider this a paycut. I did not say:



I listed my work equipment above, go and work out the costs for running it all for 10 hours a day at the average price of kilowatt hour if you think I'm being petty. Just my desktop PC will cost up to €600 for the year if I'm running demanding jobs. Then work out the cost of having adequate heating through winter for 10 hours a day. At an average wage you could be talking about 2-10% "pay cut" per year. Is that really a petty consideration?

Whether this is offset by my commute or buying lunch is irrelevant to me, because what I eat or how I travel are not my company's business.

That's not even factoring in wear and tear on my toilet seat.

You get tax allowance for everything you listed.

I have worked from home since 2006 and got nothing. The saving on fuel/time made up for that. Last year I got a tax allowance and this year my company have provided money toward BB. I also get a set fee every 3 months to buy home equipment for my office. I never had it so good :-)

But back to the main saving which is time and fuel for commute. Also I work in quite a fancy part of town, having lunch out each day cost a fortune:P

floorpie

ineedeuro wrote: »

You get tax allowance for everything you listed.

I looked into the tax allowance and it seems to cover 10% of costs for the above, and 30% for the cost of broadband, am I incorrect? If so that's not significant enough imo.

I have worked from home since 2006 and got nothing. The saving on fuel/time made up for that. Last year I got a tax allowance and this year my company have provided money toward BB

I also get a set fee every 3 months to buy home equipment for my office.

But back to the main saving which is time and fuel for commute. Also I work in quite a fancy part of town, having lunch out each day cost a fortune:P

It'd be different if I were electing to work from home. My issue here is that it's being demanded of people for at least 3/5 the week. Apparently we should be so grateful that we shouldn't consider the negative implications.

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

I looked into the tax allowance and it seems to cover 10% of costs for the above, and 30% for the cost of broadband, am I incorrect?



It'd be different if I were electing to work from home. My issue here is that it's being demanded of people for at least 3/5 the week.

I don't know the exact number but it is something.

If you and the OP have a specific issue then go to manager/HR and explain. I am sure for specific cases they will offer a desk.
Have they offered nothing to help set up a home office?

dmigsy

floorpie wrote: »

Yes I asked if we'd be paid for our use of electricity and heating, or should we consider this a paycut. I did not say:



I listed my work equipment above, go and work out the costs for running it all for 10 hours a day at the average price of kilowatt hour if you think I'm being petty. Just my desktop PC will cost up to €600 for the year if I'm running demanding jobs. Then work out the cost of having adequate heating through winter for 10 hours a day. At an average wage you're easily talking about 2-10% "pay cut" per year. Is that really a petty consideration?

Whether this is offset by not having to commute or buy lunch out is irrelevant to me, because what I eat or how I travel are not my company's business.

That's not even factoring in wear and tear on my toilet seat.

The temperature you like to keep your house at, or the quality of your home insulation is surely also irrelevant as it's none of your companies business. So why would you include that cost in your calculations but exclude the savings of commuting costs/lunch/time? Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it.

floorpie

dmigsy wrote: »

The temperature you like to keep your house at, or the quality of your home insulation is surely also irrelevant as it's none of your companies business. So why would you include that cost in your calculations but exclude the savings of commuting costs/lunch/time?

I'm pretty sure that the suitability of my workspace is my company's business, and that what I eat is not my company's business.

Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it.

? I already said that I'm happy to 100% WFH or 100% work from office. Before Covid I was WFH a lot (at my discretion) and travelled a lot, so I'm used to being flexible for work. Again, my issue is that it's now being demanded without much consideration. If you don't mind the costs then that's up to you.

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the suitability of my workspace is my company's business, and that what I eat is not my company's business.


? I already said that I'm happy to 100% WFH or 100% work from office. Before Covid I was WFH a lot (at my discretion) and travelled a lot, so I'm used to being flexible for work. Again, my issue is that it's now being demanded without much consideration. If you don't mind the costs then that's up to you.

Ok so you worked from home prior to covid and now because they asked you to work from home you have a problem with it?

I can't wait for the pubs to open

Mango Joe

Mango Joe wrote: »

I said I'd take your point at face value and read your posts on this thread.

Shocked to then discover that you have an incredible 46 posts on this very thread!!! Just you delighting in expressing your opinion on this very deep and complex topic in 46 plus exciting new ways.....


You really can't comment on the topic of 'working' from home if you spend all of your working day spamming threads with your no doubt sage thoughts and wondrous wisdom.

You actually went through this thread and counted each individual post I made.

Let's pause to consider that for a moment.

irelandrover

Deleted User wrote: »

You actually went through this thread and counted each individual post I made.

Let's pause to consider that for a moment.

You can easily see the amount of posts by everyone who contributed to the thread. Just click the posts number on the forum page

ineedeuro

irelandrover wrote: »

You can easily see the amount of posts by everyone who contributed to the thread. Just click the posts number on the forum page

and why would you need to do that?

irelandrover

ineedeuro wrote: »

and why would you need to do that?

To see who contributed the most to the thread? Does it matter why you would want to? Its very easy to see how many posts a contributor has without counting them individually.

floorpie

ineedeuro wrote: »

Ok so you worked from home prior to covid and now because they asked you to work from home you have a problem with it?

Yeah? What's so confusing about this

For example, if I'm 100% WFH I can move wherever I please to suit. If I have a permanent desk in my office I can keep the bulk of my work equipment there and visit the office as needed.

Conversely, if I have no permanent desk in work and also have to come in 2 days a week, I must live somewhere with space for a desk at home, keep my equipment at home, run my equipment at home, and must live within a reasonable distance of the office.

You get the difference? One is at my discretion and I can arrange everything to suit, the other is demanded in order to subsidise a company's office expenditure.

I'm surprised that this forum can see "your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home" in an OP and not have any concern

oisinog

floorpie wrote: »

I looked into the tax allowance and it seems to cover 10% of costs for the above, and 30% for the cost of broadband, am I incorrect? If so that's not significant enough imo.



It'd be different if I were electing to work from home. My issue here is that it's being demanded of people for at least 3/5 the week. Apparently we should be so grateful that we shouldn't consider the negative implications.

You talk about the extra costs but dont discuss the offsets.
How much per week have you saved on you commute to work?
How much have you saved on Coffee/Tea/Lunch?

floorpie

oisinog wrote: »

How much per week have you saved on you commute to work?
How much have you saved on Coffee/Tea/Lunch?

Irrelevant imo.

ineedeuro

ineedeuro wrote: »

and why would you need to do that?

I know. Why on earth would you care?

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

Yeah? What's so confusing about this

For example, if I'm 100% WFH I can move wherever I please to suit. If I have a permanent desk in my office I can keep the bulk of my work equipment there and visit the office as needed.

Conversely, if I have no permanent desk in work and also have to come in 2 days a week, I must live somewhere with space for a desk at home, keep my equipment at home, run my equipment at home, and must live within a reasonable distance of the office.

You get the difference? One is at my discretion and I can arrange everything to suit, the other is demanded in order to subsidise a company's office expenditure.

I'm surprised that this forum can see "your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home" in an OP and not have any concern

Sorry I don't really. Anyway as I said, go ask your manager/HR. I'm sure they will be happy to give you space in the office.

oisinog

floorpie wrote: »

Irrelevant imo.

But its not when you are saying you are more or less taking a paycut.

Both myself and my wife are working from home I commuted to work by bike so I had no cost but I childcare costs.

Working from home has saved me childcare costs and also reduced my spend on food and coffee (I even bough an espresso machine for home).

Using your logic I have had a payrise as I have more money in my bank account at the end of each month.

irelandrover

ineedeuro wrote: »

Ok so you worked from home prior to covid and now because they asked you to work from home you have a problem with it?

I can't wait for the pubs to open

I dont see it as that unusual. Being able to do something and being forced to do something are very different things.

I will probably be back in the office 2 days a week when we go back. I used to be 4 days a week in the office with no WFH.

It is a change and it costs me money. I dont live in ireland so get paid 19 cents a km to commute to work, and i cycled so i had no expenses. Coffee was supplied by teh company and i bought a packed lunch most days anyway.

So now i have to pay for coffee, lose the travel money and have to heat my office.

I dont mind as i like the flexibility. BUt i can fully understand why someone would be annoyed by this.

ineedeuro

oisinog wrote: »

You talk about the extra costs but dont discuss the offsets.
How much per week have you saved on you commute to work?
How much have you saved on Coffee/Tea/Lunch?

Time is my biggest saving. Sitting in traffics for hours just slowly wasting your life away. Or public transport getting crammed onto a train with no seat etc. Dreadful.

Why waste that time when I can get up in the morning, have a nice run. Get some breakfast and then take the long walk from the sitting room into my office and sit down for a day at work.

Lovely day today, so my last 3 calls I walked around the garden and got a little bit of exercise.

ineedeuro

irelandrover wrote: »

I dont see it as that unusual. Being able to do something and being forced to do something are very different things.

I will probably be back in the office 2 days a week when we go back. I used to be 4 days a week in the office with no WFH.

It is a change and it costs me money. I dont live in ireland so get paid 19 cents a km to commute to work, and i cycled so i had no expenses. Coffee was supplied by teh company and i bought a packed lunch most days anyway.

So now i have to pay for coffee, lose the travel money and have to heat my office.

I dont mind as i like the flexibility. BUt i can fully understand why someone would be annoyed by this.

Which company pays you to travel to their office? I have never heard of that in my life. Any jobs going?

Mango Joe

irelandrover wrote: »

To see who contributed the most to the thread? Does it matter why you would want to? Its very easy to see how many posts a contributor has without counting them individually.

I just think there's a nice little irony in certain Posters on here ranting away for post after breathless post about the trials of life as they supposedly work from home when the reality is they're muttering away in a back-slapping echo chamber where the person who shouts their nonsense the loudest wins the heartiest guffaw from their Admirers.



Ditto for misunderstanding a basic function on here and posting oh-so clever memes like a snarky 15 year old high-school girl...Obviously.

floorpie

oisinog wrote: »

But its not when you are saying you are more or less taking a paycut.

Both myself and my wife are working from home I commuted to work by bike so I had no cost but I childcare costs.

Working from home has saved me childcare costs and also reduced my spend on food and coffee (I even bough an espresso machine for home).

Using your logic I have had a payrise as I have more money in my bank account at the end of each month.

What you spend in your personal life has never been your company's business. Some people bring lunch from home to work, some people buy it out, some people walk, some drive. So imo whether you're saving or spending more in your personal life by WFH is irrelevant.

If you have a business cost it should be covered by the business. E.g. I don't pay for my own flights, hotels and food when I'm abroad for work. Using posters' logic here, I should pay myself because I get the benefit of seeing other countries.

oisinog

floorpie wrote: »

What you spend in your personal life has never been your company's business. Some people bring lunch from home to work, some people buy it out, some people walk, some drive. So imo whether you're saving or spending more in your personal life by WFH is irrelevant.

If you have a business cost it should be covered by the business. E.g. I don't pay for my own flights, hotels and food when I'm abroad for work. Using posters' logic here, I should pay myself because I get the benefit of seeing other countries.

Well then you should be speaking to your HR department and asking for a payrise! If they dont offer you one look for another job it really is as simple as that.

I get that not eveyone enjoys working from home I don't either but at the same time working from home has given me more time to do things with my family and at the same time make cost savings. I turn my laptop off at the end of the day and forget about it untiil the next morning. Now that classes have reopened up here in the North I can take my Daugher to Gymnastics for the first time and get to watch her.

Not all things should revolve around work if work is a big part of your social life you should be concerned for yourself as that is not healthy.

Imagine being the type of individual who goes around counting posts and keeping arbitrary scores on boards forums...

I'll continue to post my opinion, regardless of your feelings or personal attacks.

Don't like it? You are free to ignore me.

Cheers.

jester77

floorpie wrote: »

What you spend in your personal life has never been your company's business. Some people bring lunch from home to work, some people buy it out, some people walk, some drive. So imo whether you're saving or spending more in your personal life by WFH is irrelevant.

If you have a business cost it should be covered by the business. E.g. I don't pay for my own flights, hotels and food when I'm abroad for work. Using posters' logic here, I should pay myself because I get the benefit of seeing other countries.

You are free to look for a new job that won't have these demands. They cannot force you to stay.

ineedeuro

jester77 wrote: »

You are free to look for a new job that won't have these demands. They cannot force you to stay.

See above, some company pay's for you to commute to office. Has to be on your list of options

Allinall

jester77 wrote: »

You are free to look for a new job that won't have these demands. They cannot force you to stay.

They also cannot arbitrarily change your working conditions without your express agreement.

ineedeuro

Allinall wrote: »

They also cannot arbitrarily change your working conditions without your express agreement.

Once its in the contract they can do what they want