Remote working - the future?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598143#Comment_118598143

Absolute rubbish, most people posting here have been wfh for the past 2 years or whatever it has been so know exactly how it works.

Personally i think a hybrid scenario is great, 3 days in and 2 days wfh, that way you maintain a central physical location where people can physically meet, can instill some sort of company culture and allow more junior people progress at an appropriate pace by learned from those around them.

I am not in favour of fully remote working and i think that most of those that are, are in only favour of it because it suits their own particular set of circumstances. Personally i would never take a job in a company that is fully remote working but i accept there are people posting here that would only consider that kind of arrangement.

Flinty997

Wfh home in lockdown or a pandemic is not true reflection of wfh works. Normally you'd be able to go into the office for meetings or training. Even of you were full time wfh.

We've had virtual training, e-learning for decades many places now have virtual onboarding. If

I'd wonder how many who claim to train new staff actually have formal training and mentoring programs internally. Staff development plans and progression planning.

Many places complaining about been unable to recruit skilled staff. Actually do no training. Most give it lip service. They just expect people to train themselves.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597985#Comment_118597985

I suspect a much more basic cause: Younger workers are less likely to have the space for a decent home-office.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598971#Comment_118598971

That's true but all the older workers were also in this position themselves, they also did not have a house of their own, they also did not have any knowledge of their job. They benefited from learning it all from their older peers at work.

It's interesting that the big facilitators of WFH the big tech companies do not want it in their own companies ,the majority of their staff are now back working on site since the restrictions were lifted a few weeks ago. In my own company the car parks are now full again. The only place WFH might persist for a while is in public sector land

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599508#Comment_118599508

the big tech companies are all doing WFH and hybrid permanently now. Google in Ireland is allowing 20% of its staff to wfh and the rest have hybrid options. Im in data & tech and we are hybrid permanently with some WFH permanently (and hardly anyone is coming in at all yet). And all large professional services firms will be a mix.

Where are you getting the idea that the big companies dont want it? Want it or no, they are offering flexible working ow long term

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598947#Comment_118598947

I suppose maybe because I work in an "essential service" but we did have blended options for training and meetings all throughout the last 2 years. Nobody had to attend in person if they didnt want to. So we had no interruption for any training etc

Personally I thought that even if training etc could only be done in person that would have proceeded anyway - people could always attend offices for essential work.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599508#Comment_118599508

civil and public sector land -yes it is being rolled out but can vary widely dependent on individual managers. Hopefully once a more defined policy is in plan by the end of 2022 (locally in my own workplace and across civil and public sector).

Flinty997

Even before Covid almost every programmer we interviewed was looking for some WFH options.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599819#Comment_118599819

But that was the only sector that was traditionally regarded as actually suited to WFH but even in that case younger workers would require several years of onsite training before they were suitable for this.

Software guys were also the first victims of offshoring aswell remember back in the tech crash of 2001. Because they didn't need to be in the office there jobs could also be easily outsourced to low cost locations like India. Although this is no longer the case because of the shortage of tech skills globally anyway. However other people looking to break the link with the office would want to watch their backs

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600021#Comment_118600021

Tech crash in 2001 was a stock market bubble and crash. Nothing to do with outsourcing.

Most "juniors" find it hard to break into IT because generally it only hires people with experience. They don't want to train.

https://codefol.io/posts/how-can-there-be-a-job-shortage-and-so-hard-to-get-a-tech-job/

BhoyRayzor

Can we have one thread for the WFH people and one thread for the back to the office people.

Then once a week/month we can visit each others thread to catch up?

Flinty997

Jokes about WFH aren't remotely funny.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602301#Comment_118602301

Can I spend two days posting in one and three days posting in the other?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602311#Comment_118602311

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603062#Comment_118603062

That was actually quite funny….:.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603313#Comment_118603313

On the days he's meant to be posting in wfh he'll actually be in after hours.

Young_gunner

https://www.independent.ie/news/return-to-office-will-cost-workers-100-a-week-with-prices-on-the-rise-41327712.html

And this is just the financial cost, which pales in comparison to the time and stress costs

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604223#Comment_118604223

headline is a litte disingenuous if you read the article.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604258#Comment_118604258

I did read the article. How is the headline disingenuous?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604389#Comment_118604389

The headlines says it will cost workers (some, based on their calculations) 100 a week to return to the office.

Seems a lot, however when you read the article (based on their calculations also) wfh would cost the same worker 81 a week, the incremental cost then is 19 euro, not the headline 100 euro:

A worker in Dublin who travels to work by Luas over five to eight zones will spend an average of €101 on public transport, coffee, lunches and clothing.

In contrast, a worker able to operate remotely from home faces an average cost of €81, even allowing for three lunches each week eaten out, home heating costs and an allowance for clothing.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604484#Comment_118604484

But that €81 is if you go out for lunch when wfh, which I don't think people generally do?

whereas the €100 spend is guaranteed.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604578#Comment_118604578

not all of it is guaranteed, they are including clothing allowances etc, someone travelling to work could bring their lunch if they want, i didnt quote the article nor frame the calculations, i just said the headline is disingenuous , which it is.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604598#Comment_118604598

I don't agree tbh, but that's okay.

Also, time and stress savings are not included.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604614#Comment_118604614

What dont you agree with, that the headline is disingenuous? so do you think someone reading the headline would think:

a) wow itll cost an extra 100 a week to go back to the office or

b) i bet that the actual figure contained in the article is 80% lower than that

Flinty997

We had a subsidized canteen and parking. Both are mostly gone.

Have to rethink the transport option. Might end up on an illegal eScooter yet. :)

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604614#Comment_118604614

Time & stress are hard to quantify and could apply equally to both scenarios. People WFH might find working with small children in the house just as stressful as others find working with the children in their offices 😊 People with a short commute might not find going back to the office is as stressful as others find their arduous commute.

Sunny Disposition

Would be interested to know, is anyone here who employs people having an issue with remote work? Our productivity is up quite a bit, tasks are definitely completed much quicker, and I put it down to people being more focused when they're alone.

Young_gunner

Oh of course, but clearly *on average*, the time and cost of commuting time is much greater than that of WFH.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606067#Comment_118606067

sorry meant to quote this: Oh of course, but clearly *on average*, the time and cost of commuting is much greater than that of WFH.

gazzer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604484#Comment_118604484

Well in my own circumstances we have been informed that from next month it is 2 days a week in the office so my outgoings will increase by 45 euro a week when I factor in commuting costs (public transport). As it is only 2 days a week I wont get the benefit of a taxsaver pass unless a new scheme is brought out or even something like a 10 journey ticket that can be used over a month (rather then the current 7 days). Its not a massive amount in the scheme of things but if we are asked to do 3 days in the office later in the year those costs will obviously raise. Definitely putting my name down to transfer offices to nearer where I live.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606931#Comment_118606931

sure and everyone will have their own story, i was just commenting on that particular article that was quoted.

Hotblack Desiato

Stupid article is stupid. But it is the Indo.

Whether I'm wfh, in the office, or on holidays, I still have to eat lunch.

It's up to me whether I make a sandwich, buy one, eat in a cafe, etc. etc. whichever of the three I'm doing.

Many people will easily exceed the €100 purely on transport costs alone if back in the office 4 or 5 days a week, especially with fuel prices as high as they have become.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596334#Comment_118596334

Outside of the rarefied atmosphere of academia, you will find sales reps, social workers, budget advisors, home-care team leaders, engineers, housing officers, debt-collectors, visiting teachers, educational psychologists, fire safety officers - and many other people who both travel between clients (this counts as work), and do some aspects of their job from their car. How do I know? Because I've worked with them.

Re my other comments: I'm currently working for the local branch of a UK based organisation which has a WFH option for a long time. Their WFH policies are based on their experience, and they've learned the hard way to include things like:

• Separate lockable workspace or no visitors to the home during the day (maybe you aren't lucky enough to have friends or family who visit - other people are).

*Make sure your laptop screen cannot be overlooked by anyone, including from outside your windows (you'd think people would be smart enough to not need this written down - they ain't)

*If you would need childcare in place if you were working from the office, then you need the same arrangement in place in doing WFH.

If your childcare arrangement breaks down, then immediately stop work and inform your manager (just like you would in the office). Do not try to "get by" - we are NOT responsible if you do this, and your child gets injured.

If this gives you a giggle and you think it's nonsense, when that's statement about you.

And I'll say again: I'm not opposed to WFH. But it needs to be done properly (not in a make-do fashion) and to acceptable to employee, employer, business partners and customers/clients/patients. If any one of those isn't happy, then it's not a suitable job for WFH.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608127#Comment_118608127

Yeah none of those jobs you have listed are remote working - they are jobs that involve travel to locations on occasions which is vastly different from remote working/working from home. My job when im on campus can involve travel - thats not remote working/working from home

Yeah I agree that remote working needs to be done properly - but in my workplace we have a remote working policy already in place. It still in place now and will be updated to reflect the changes happening in govt/roll out across civil and public service. The only ad hoc arrangements Ive seen have been in private sector.

And those examples you have listed from your company are just daft - except for the seperate lockable workstation - which is normal practice anyway.

Maybe its a thing in the UK but my employer cannot dictate/comment on childcare arrangements nor would I inform my manager if my childcare arrangements broke down. That is none of their business. Perhaps someone working in the private sector would comment but putting like that in any policy might possibly be discriminatory. My personal life is not referenced in our remote working policy. An employer may provide guidelines regarding your home work station - not your home.

Whether that policy would be legal in Ireland I dont know. Your employer has no rights to dictate what childcare arrangements you must have in place - or even to know if you have kids. Weird.

Yes Im still giggling.

Flinty997

Those rules sounds like a primary school project from the 90s. Dated and the grammar is terrible.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608538#Comment_118608538

and creepy dont forget creepy

magicbastarder

may be of interest to some here - a podcast episode about the evolution of the office (and office furniture) with some musings on how remote working is and isn't being addressed:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/reaction-offices-and-the-future-of-work/

Sarn

We would have a similar policy on childcare, as above. The childcare arrangements are expected to be the same if you’re WFH or in the office. This policy was suspended during the pandemic.

While your employer can’t dictate what type of childcare you have in place, they can stipulate that the employee should not be responsible for their care while working. Less of an issue with children that can look after themselves. At the end of the day the employee is paid to focus on work.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610179#Comment_118610179

which is fair enough to be honest, now how it would be monitored or enforced is another thing, and im sure everyone will be along to tell me work is about output who cares when you do it etc, but if you arent available for meetings when everyone else is thats disruptive and inefficient.

bertiebomber

It will be claed back mark m ywords no employer trusts their employees 100% thats why they invented the frustrated middle manager !! That same manager is surely suffering these last 2 years as his ability to bully the employees has been diminished considerably!!

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610179#Comment_118610179

oh ok interesting - never heard of such a thing. Work is the same whether in person or remotely and our policy makes no mention of someone's personal life. You are available for work as agreed same as when you are in the office. How would that even be monitored and why would your employer even know your childcare needs I dont know.

If you are unavailable for work whether remotely or in the office the same procedure applies - at least for us anyway. We dont need to provide detailed explanations for it.

good to get the perspective from private sector

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610216#Comment_118610216

to be fair there is no ambiguity if you are office based, unless you bring the kids with you which is rare enough i would imagine...

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610255#Comment_118610255

yeah see I cant comment to be honest - I work in a university. Is it unusual for kids to be on campus - no. Non issue. If you are unavailable for work thats a different thing.

From my private sector days possibly rare - but not now.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610303#Comment_118610303

Sorry what do you mean, its not unusual for a member of staff's kids to be on campus? If they are attending the university i get that, but in other circumstances?

I suppose all this depends on whether you work for an employer or a manager who required you, pre Covid, to record your hours in the office. Some shocking practices here (illustrated by the you-know-whos on this thread) required employees to take unpaid time to go pick up children or go to an appointment or do an essential chore. Even when in the office, in my place, you come and go as you please as long as you do your job. Some days I left at 3, some days at 8. And same in the morning.

if your employer cares about your delivery rather than your presence, then they’re not likely to mind a bit of childcare at home during the work day. Performance is not managed through hours at your computer. The other type of employer, as we can see from Mrs O’B is likely to have a bee in their bonnet about it

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611216#Comment_118611216

Attending classes or events - especially anything sport related whether organised by the university or the community.

University campus are public buildings - open to mostly anyone.

You may not be able to into individual offices or classrooms but if you want to attend our library you can - and you can bring your kids. The grounds are also public and are used a lot by the community which is great.

Numerous reasons.

Flinty997

Woddy - I think it would be unusual to have quite that flexibility.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611294#Comment_118611294

depends on what you are doing, if its a collaborative role should everyone else who is available during normal working hours have to work around your schedule?

If its a role where you work by yourself with defined outputs an approach like that could work but its obviously not going to suit in a lot of cases.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611443#Comment_118611443

slightly different thing to bringing your kids to work to be fair.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606931#Comment_118606931

Can I ask, why are they bringing ye back to the office? There seems to be a lot of people going back to a hybrid model, even though many of them don't want to. Did your employer explain to you why wfh is being cut back on?

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611713#Comment_118611713

in your opinion - but no. If a staff member wants to or has to bring their kids to the office for whatever reason it is not a big deal. The world does not end and in general nobody cares.

Completely different that a private business I will grant you.

We also provide the same accomodations for students if possible.