Remote working - the future?

dkav9

if I read "young people want to return because ..." one more time I will flip

I don't want to go back

Feck your office, I can socialise in my own time. I don't count meaningless "how was your weekend?" chat as socialising, nor do I need some coffee breath watching me work

Young_gunner

dkav9 wrote: »

if I read "young people want to return because ..." one more time I will flip

I don't want to go back

Feck your office, I can socialise in my own time. I don't count meaningless "how was your weekend?" chat as socialising, nor do I need some coffee breath watching me work

Exactly, if I were back in my 20s now, there's no way i'd like to go back to a commuting lifestyle.

I'd actually have been able to save a meaningful deposit instead of having to wait til I was nearly 40 to buy a house! I think I paid close to €190k in rent before I purchased a house.

hello2020

dkav9 wrote: »

if I read "young people want to return because ..." one more time I will flip

I don't want to go back

Feck your office, I can socialise in my own time. I don't count meaningless "how was your weekend?" chat as socialising, nor do I need some coffee breath watching me work

:):):):):)
watching my young kids adapt technology so easily during the lock-down , i can say that young ones can easily handle the remote working as that's what they know..
its more problem for senior managers who does not produce much of value and are getting exposed...

snotboogie

dkav9 wrote: »

if I read "young people want to return because ..." one more time I will flip

I don't want to go back

Feck your office, I can socialise in my own time. I don't count meaningless "how was your weekend?" chat as socialising, nor do I need some coffee breath watching me work

I don't think people are saying young people miss coffee chats more than any other group. People are saying lots of young people are living in shared accommodation without adequate space or privacy to work.

PhilOssophy

hello2020 wrote: »

Managers are afraid of losing their jobs in remote work environment as everyone can see they hardly produce anything but consume lots of project cost..
In office setup , managers feel superior but on Team's seniority feel is lost..

This is so true. In any organisation where there are "middle managers", there is inevitably a serious waste of money where half of these chumps could be got rid of but for the fact that they are the carrot for junior staff.

If a cost/benefit was ever done on them and their daily work output actually scrutinised, half of these wasters would be got rid of.

They naturally want to go back to the office because its good for their ego - "here I am with my team sitting around me, I'm off to another important meeting where I and the other middle managers will sit around and talk about how great we are.". This will be the death of the WFH - they are probably telling senior management about a decline in productivity and the loss of the "vibe" on the team, or using some spurious KPI which they don't understand themselves to get the minions back in.

But I guess, every office needs fingers waggers.........and "blue sky thinking" and the like.

dkav9

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't think people are saying young people miss coffee chats more than any other group. People are saying lots of young people are living in shared accommodation without adequate space or privacy to work.

I agree.

However there is also a large cohort of older people with kids/bad setups who are equally as eager to get back into the office. It's not a young/old thing, it's down to the individual's circumstances.

hello2020

PhilOssophy wrote: »

This is so true. In any organisation where there are "middle managers", there is inevitably a serious waste of money where half of these chumps could be got rid of but for the fact that they are the carrot for junior staff.

They naturally want to go back to the office because its good for their ego -
"here I am with my team sitting around me, I'm off to another important meeting where I and the other middle managers will sit around and talk about how great we are.".

this ! managers want to sit with the team around them as it makes them feel important and boost their egos ...
visualize the same old manager sitting alone in his attic in front of his computer with no where to go for next meeting !!

PokeHerKing

Similar to another poster, I work for one of the big financial MNC and we've been told this week that we'll be back in the office from early September.

We've been told all along that there's less than zero chance of any wfh model being implemented so its not a shock but I'm still surprised they've been so dogmatic about it.

I agree though that senior management probably prefer an office based approach as they can look busier in person then they can wfh. I think India will be doing most of the work in the next decade anyway so jobs aren't exactly safe regardless of remote working.

ineedeuro

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Well, it's in the article.
People in the Lahinch area have had to leave because there is a shortage of property, their landlords are taking the opportunity to cash in, and there's nothing else in the area for them. Buying is also far more difficult for locals, who aren't as well paid as people working remotely for Dublin based companies.
It's not that WFH isn't overall a good thing for rural areas, it definitely is, but it isn't without challenges, and it should be planned for. Surely that's not hard to understand. In fact it'd be amazing if a huge change in population patterns didn't come with challenges.

Go back prior to covid and we had people complaining about all these towns dying and that everyone was moving to cities. It was the death of rural Ireland.

Now people are moving out and regenerating the locals area and people are complaining. To be honest some people are never happy.

Swindled

WFH on a large scale has finally exposed the sham of layer upon layer of bloated middle management and bureaucracy and enormous office and real estate requirements for what it is, employees knew it, and now Business owners know it as well.

floorpie

What is this weird vibe in the thread where junior people think they're more competent than their managers

The lack of socialisation from WFH has gone to some of your heads I think (as surveys show, which is why WFH as we know it will end)

Sunny Disposition

There's a lot of nonsense in office work, subtle and not so subtle ways of elevating management and preferred workers. Better offices or desks, certain people being invited to meetings, people humiliated by given the more menial tasks.
Remote working has cut away a lot of this BS, which is undoubtedly a positive thing, but hasn't been good for a certain cohort who have lost the trappings of 'success' and the ability to lord it over underlings. Now most managers or senior employees won't care, but you know some of the more insecure ones will hate it.

ineedeuro

Swindled wrote: »

WFH on a large scale has finally exposed the sham of layer upon layer of bloated middle management and bureaucracy and enormous office and real estate requirements for what it is, employees knew it, and now Business owners know it as well.

I think you jumped a step too far. I think WFH has made exec sit up in terms of the abilities of employees to work from home. having to herd everyone into an office and tie them to a desk in case they did nothing is gone. In reality most offices will have people who spend the entire day walking about talking to anyone and everyone and not do a tap of work.

You will still have jobs that require people to work in office space, not all jobs are made for working from home but a lot are. So WFH should be pushed by the government, If that is giving tax breaks to companies for this policy then maybe that is the way to go

We need to reduce traffic and pollution in major cities. We need to take cars off the road but most important we need to improve family life. The days of people not seeing their kids till the weekend because they have to leave before they get up and get home after they have gone to bed should be over. Especially when they cant see them because they are sitting in traffic.

If the 5-6 people are so desperate to go into an office for the gossip I am sure they can supply them with desk and they can talk away to each other:p

snotboogie

dkav9 wrote: »

I agree.

However there is also a large cohort of older people with kids/bad setups who are equally as eager to get back into the office. It's not a young/old thing, it's down to the individual's circumstances.

100% ya. Can actually be tougher on the mid 30's couple trying to balance young children running around the house. People in their 20's will generally (obviously not exclusively) want to live in cities for their social life. That means either living in shared accommodation or if they are lucky with their parents. Wfh makes that setup a lot less appealing.

It's often people in their 40's and 50's with grown up children, who have been decades in their industry and don't need to ask any questions, who have long commutes into Dublin who have really befefited. They often are the loudest voices dismissing any benefit to working in an office. For a lot of people it is genuinely really difficult to work from home.

ineedeuro

snotboogie wrote: »

100% ya. Can actually be tougher on the mid 30's couple trying to balance young children running around the house. People in their 20's will generally (obviously not exclusively) want to live in cities for their social life. That means either living in shared accommodation or if they are lucky with their parents. Wfh makes that setup a lot less appealing.

It's often people in their 40's and 50's with grown up children, who have been decades in their industry and don't need to ask any questions, who have long commutes into Dublin who have really befefited. They often are the loudest voices dismissing any benefit to working in an office. For a lot of people it is genuinely really difficult to work from home.

If you work in an office you have childcare, the kids are not running around the house solo while you are in work.
If you are WFH then you still require the same childcare.

The initial problem with Covid was childcare was shut down so everyone made allowances for kids in the house etc. But moving forward people will still need childcare during working hours. Now the advantage is they are not spending 2-3 hours in traffic so the hours are reduced but nobody should think WFH means you dont need childcare anymore. Any I know is 100% aware of this

Swindled

ineedeuro wrote: »

I think you jumped a step too far . . .

. .. then goes on to make essentially the same points :rolleyes:

Yes some offices and working from the office will always be required, but to no where near the same extent it was. Business owners are rightly not going to pay for thousands of square foot in cities that they don't need.

Del2005

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Well, it's in the article.
People in the Lahinch area have had to leave because there is a shortage of property, their landlords are taking the opportunity to cash in, and there's nothing else in the area for them. Buying is also far more difficult for locals, who aren't as well paid as people working remotely for Dublin based companies.
It's not that WFH isn't overall a good thing for rural areas, it definitely is, but it isn't without challenges, and it should be planned for. Surely that's not hard to understand. In fact it'd be amazing if a huge change in population patterns didn't come with challenges.

It's the same in any place that becomes popular locals can't afford to live there anymore. Is it only an issue when it affects rural locations because it's been happening in Dublin for years?

Swindled

Del2005 wrote: »

It's the same in any place that becomes popular locals can't afford to live there anymore. Is it only an issue when it affects rural locations because it's been happening in Dublin for years?

Been happening in scenic rural areas for years, rich city dwellers buying up local homes for their holidays. There are quite a few areas in so called "rural" Ireland where locals have not been able to afford to buy for many years.

ineedeuro

Swindled wrote: »

. .. then goes on to make essentially the same points :rolleyes:

Yes some offices and working from the office will always be required, but to no where near the same extent it was. Business owners are rightly not going to pay for thousands of square foot in cities that they don't need.

You are talking about WFH gets rid of middle management. It doesn't. That's what I meant. You still need managers unless you WFH and then sack a load of people. Sorry that's what I meant

Swindled

ineedeuro wrote: »

You are talking about WFH gets rid of middle management. It doesn't. That's what I meant. You still need managers unless you WFH and then sack a load of people. Sorry that's what I meant

No not all of them, but a great many of them, especially the incompetent - spend all day on office politics, instead of actual work types, have been exposed as surplus to requirements. No one said anywhere you don't need managers, so don't try to pretend that.

Sunny Disposition

Del2005 wrote: »

It's the same in any place that becomes popular locals can't afford to live there anymore. Is it only an issue when it affects rural locations because it's been happening in Dublin for years?

No, I didn’t say it was though. Don’t know how you think I did.

Sunny Disposition

Swindled wrote: »

No not all of them, but a great many of them, especially the incompetent - spend all day on office politics, instead of actual work types, have been exposed as surplus to requirements. No one said anywhere you don't need managers, so don't try to pretend that.

I doubt that it will get rid of the need for management jobs, but it will take away some of the trappings that go with them.

Swindled

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I doubt that it will get rid of the need for management jobs,

Again with the pretending, again who said it did ?

Sunny Disposition

Swindled wrote: »

Again with the pretending, again who said it did ?

No, I’m not saying you said that, I know you didn’t, apologies if I insinuated that.

Swindled

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

No, I’m not saying you said that, I know you didn’t, apologies if I insinuated that.

Appreciate your post, thank you.

ineedeuro

Swindled wrote: »

No not all of them, but a great many of them, especially the incompetent - spend all day on office politics, instead of actual work types, have been exposed as surplus to requirements. No one said anywhere you don't need managers, so don't try to pretend that.

You are talking about two different things. If a manager is not a good manager then they are not required in the office or WFH.
Replacing a bad manager with a good one should always be done. This is your post:

Swindled wrote: »

WFH on a large scale has finally exposed the sham of layer upon layer of bloated middle management and bureaucracy and enormous office and real estate requirements for what it is, employees knew it, and now Business owners know it as well.

That read to me you say middle management is bloated and WFH doesn't require them.
Even in a WFH capacity managers are required, if you think it is bloated then that is a company issue no matter on location. If you think bad managers are employed again location has no bearing.
If you meant something else sorry it wasn't clear in your post

The One Doctor

Young_gunner wrote: »

This “strong belief” of middle managers is entirely without foundation!

Middle managers (PHBs) have many strong beliefs that are without foundation.

There is no logical reason to do a 3/2 model unless you're just checking that your employees aren't working from their villas in the Canaries. The 2 days in the office will be chockful of useless meetings where PHBs show their alpha maleness to the peons.

My FIL is a director for a worldwide transport company. Before covid he spent meetings designing upgrades for his shed in his head. Now there aren't any meetings because everyone knows that meetings are a drain on productivity.

floorpie

WFH doesn't get rid of human nature. You still need to be sociable/likeable/political AND competent to succeed. Maybe moreso, seeing as you can more easily slip between the cracks and be less visible.

Sunny Disposition

Swindled wrote: »

Been happening in scenic rural areas for years, rich city dwellers buying up local homes for their holidays. There are quite a few areas in so called "rural" Ireland where locals have not been able to afford to buy for many years.

I think this is different. If you read the article above the auctioneer says the demand in Lahinch is as strong as in the Celtic Tiger. But this is at a time when there are a huge number of people out of work, its very likely to get even more hectic in the next year.
Lahinch is a great 'staycation' spot, very good beach and it has the golf and top notch surfing, so there was always some demand, but like the auctioneer says this time it is fuelled by remote workers. In the past it'd have been people looking for second homes or to an extent people opting to take lower wages for the surfing.
Of course this has the potential to regenerate the west of Ireland and it is for the most part a good thing. But there are going to be unforeseen issues. A major change in population distribution is coming, with very little planning.
Both cities and rural areas are going to have their problems reversed. City centres are going to see shops closing and urban decline, whereas rural areas will see rising housing prices and pressure on schools. There's no doubt we need a shot of the population change we're about to get, and it's definitely a healthy thing overall, but there will be challenges. Luckily we have an outstanding political class and civil service that will deal with these perfectly.

ineedeuro

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I think this is different. If you read the article above the auctioneer says the demand in Lahinch is as strong as in the Celtic Tiger. But this is at a time when there are a huge number of people out of work, its very likely to get even more hectic in the next year.
Lahinch is a great 'staycation' spot, very good beach and it has the golf and top notch surfing, so there was always some demand, but like the auctioneer says this time it is fuelled by remote workers. In the past it'd have been people looking for second homes or to an extent people opting to take lower wages for the surfing.
Of course this has the potential to regenerate the west of Ireland and it is for the most part a good thing. But there are going to be unforeseen issues. A major change in population distribution is coming, with very little planning.
Both cities and rural areas are going to have their problems reversed. City centres are going to see shops closing and urban decline, whereas rural areas will see rising housing prices and pressure on schools. There's no doubt we need a shot of the population change we're about to get, and it's definitely a healthy thing overall, but there will be challenges. Luckily we have an outstanding political class and civil service that will deal with these perfectly.

City centre's will not see a decline. You won't see city centre like in Dublin etc have shops close. What you are seeing in people with families etc moving outside of the major cities and to villages/town. These are people with kids etc and no longer want to live 30 mins away from a party capital. This will allow for the newer generation who want to live in these locations to move in.

So the people buying in these town/villages etc live in Swords/Blanchardstown etc if you take Dublin as an example. This will have zero affect on shops in that area because as they move out people will move in. What it does is reduce the pressure on cities while regenerating villages/town. Without WFH then everyone is trying to buy in the same area and hence we have this shortage of houses in cities while town/villages in Ireland are dying.

I don't see how pressure will come on school, I am from countryside, in my old school the place is dead, they could handle double the number of pupils they currently have. They just don't have the kids in the area. The local GGA teams are joining together to get numbers to play. While in Dublin you have a GAA club with 7-8 teams for each age grade because of the numbers.

People lived for years in these villages./towns then due to the trend they moved away and the populations dropped. Now you are saying these towns are not capable of increasing back the population? what is that based on? you are taking one example and painting the entire country with it. Lahinch is not a representative of the rest of Ireland.

I still have family who live in my old village, they are overjoyed with the fact new people are coming in. People who grew up in the area can now move back. It's not new houses they are building, a lot are buying old houses and repairing. The market for this is huge. I see thousands of positives for everyone.