Black people Racism in Workplace in Ireland

Bobblehats

Pussyhands wrote: »

First of all, I don't think many people would say where are you really from. I'd imagine it's more, where are you from originally. Most of the time it's just a conversation maker, just like if I saw an Irish person out abroad I might as them where are they from. And then I'd be like "ahh yes, I have cousins from Waterford, been there a few times, it's great in the summer!"

What they would mean is what stock are you of. African; obviously but narrow it down a little

bfa1509

bfa1509 wrote: »

When I hear RTE tell us about how racist we all are, I always ask myself: Why move to a country that's worse than the one you came from?

Well, to be fair, westerners and western media talk up the reputation of western nations suggesting that they're far better than they actually are. It's the same with the US who go on and on about equality, freedom, etc, but there are plenty of examples where the reality doesn't meet the propaganda.

And people move to countries not thinking about racism. Other considerations come first. I certainly didn't consider racism before I spent time in Africa, or when I moved to live in Asia. I was aware, kinda, that it existed, but I never thought it would happen to me. Until it did.

At the same time though, people should realise that in living in a country where your own race/skin colour is not significant, that you will need to ignore countless minor slights, and misunderstandings. It's just the way things are, and it's that way everywhere I've traveled to or lived in. And if it's not connected with racism, it'll be differences in nationality or other considerations. I've had such experiences in Russia, and other white nations, where problems sometimes arose due to differences in culture or nationality, as opposed to race.

MarkEadie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because she could be racist even if she did date black guys previously, due to experiences in an abusive relationship, or even she sought out such a situation. The relationships that people have are often based on less than healthy circumstances..

Also, she claimed she had dated black guys previously. No proof was given, from the articles I read.



How has she shown she isn't racist in her personal life, beyond claiming that she wasn't. You're throwing around a lot of belief in her statements when we have very little evidence to support it. We simply have how she behaved.. and that behavior was abysmal. And no, I don't excuse that behavior because she was drunk.. I've been drunk many times in my life and didn't abuse others in such a manner, especially, considering the reasons she was angry.

In any case, it's a silly example, since the woman was abusive for more than being racist.

Well I'm just taking the girl at face value. She works as a cleaner and seems to be from a disadvantaged area. I also grew up in a disadvantaged area so I feel like I have a read on her mindset. I know in the area I grew up you'd hear a lot of the F word in relation to gays, used slagging someone off casually but no homophobia was actually meant and people would stand by gay people they knew. Similarly some casual racism would be heard here and there but the people of color who grew up in the area were considered one of us and if anyone genuinely came at them with any kind of racial abuse there would be hell to pay. Its not always black and white is all I'm saying. There is no point discussing the case since as you say we don't have the facts and you dispute whether she has dated black guys which is understandable. I would have more of an issue with the clearly racist people who do everything they can to slyly hide their racism but ar every bit as racist as a kkk member than a really drunk girl who might not be racist at all in her personal life as she says, who did come out with unacceptable language.

MarkEadie

biddyearley wrote: »

Another thing that annoys me is the perception of racism if you ask a non-white Irish person about their background. I'm smart enough to know that is they have a broad Irish accent that they were brought up here, and asking about their parents country of origin should not be taken as racism, but as an attempt to understand this new diversity in our country. A black South African has a different background to a black Nigerian. All the information just helps me inform my decisions and understand any possible issues or viewpoints.

You could tell an Irish person from their accent, and those along the border or from NI had a markedly different understanding of certain issues than someone in Galway or Wexford. Calling racism is an easy way to shut down the conversion and attempt to hide your own background, good or bad.

Obviously it depends on the context. If you're asking from a mindset of "you're not Irish where are you from" it's different than "ah you're Irish, what's your heritage?".

If you got asked the same question 500+ times or more which must be the case with some people then it would be instantaneous at that stage to get a feel for who genuinely wants to know and sees you as Irish and who is asking from the perspective that you're an outsider.

pgj2015

Deleted User wrote: »

To the extent of jail?

A judge sentenced some ejit to 3 months in jail lately for refusing to pay a fine for not wearing a mask in a shop, so yes I think prison time would be suitable in this case. 3 or 4 months. its a really evil thing to try to insult someone they way that team leader did, there is something very wrong with someone who would do that and so they need to put straight on the matter, we live in a civilized Country, if you want to act that way, there should be a fitting punishment. Let him act like that in prison and see how he gets on.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

This is just absolutely and utter drivel claiming using the N word is not racist.

Using the word ****** isn't always racist. The intent and context matter greatly. This post is a testament to that.

The word is used between black Americans essentially as a term of indearment, for another example.

MarkEadie

MarkEadie wrote: »

Well I'm just taking the girl at face value. She works as a cleaner and seems to be from a disadvantaged area. I also grew up in a disadvantaged area so I feel like I have a read on her mindset. I know in the area I grew up you'd hear a lot of the F word in relation to gays, used slagging someone off casually but no homophobia was actually meant and people would stand by gay people they knew. Similarly some casual racism would be heard here and there but the people of color who grew up in the area were considered one of us and if anyone genuinely came at them with any kind of racial abuse there would be hell to pay. Its not always black and white is all I'm saying.

Which is an argument I've always made... however, I also grew up knowing many poor or disadvantaged groups, and there was a hell of a lot of homophobia, and racism. Not casual. Aggressive/violent attitudes.

I'm not so quick to excuse people for how they behave. Oh sure, I believe there are often mitigating circumstances due to the behavior of others... Where Black people could be bringing trouble on themselves. However, from what I've read of this woman, that's not the case.

There is no point discussing the case since as you say we don't have the facts and you dispute whether she has dated black guys which is understandable. I would have more of an issue with the clearly racist people who do everything they can to slyly hide their racism but ar every bit as racist as a kkk member than a really drunk girl who might not be racist at all in her personal life as she says, who did come out with unacceptable language.

Slyly hide their racism? That's more likely to be simple ignorance, and lack of contact with other racial groups. Familiarity tends to diminish such attitudes, and if it doesn't, then it'll push these people towards more obvious expressions of racism.

There's a tendency to believe that just because there are Black people in Ireland, this means that everyone has had deep meaningful interactions with them, and shouldn't be uncomfortable with their presence. The simple truth is that the population of Black people in Ireland is still relatively small, and most people have had little direct contact or interaction with them. As such, there will be discomfort, because many Black people behave in a manner which is extremely different to the various native cultural groups. As people become more exposed to Black people, racism will likely decrease... although the push to highlight racism at all costs, and "stamp it out" will likely have the opposite effect that people want. Natural adjustment would have been better....

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

A judge sentenced some ejit to 3 months in jail lately for refusing to pay a fine for not wearing a mask in a shop, so yes I think prison time would be suitable in this case. 3 or 4 months. its a really evil thing to try to insult someone they way that team leader did, there is something very wrong with someone who would do that and so they need to put straight on the matter, we live in a civilized Country, if you want to act that way, there should be a fitting punishment. Let him act like that in prison and see how he gets on.

There's quite a difference between not wearing a mask in a public place during a global pandemic, and verbal insults.

Your idea of a fitting punishment is excessive. The punishment of losing his job, and possibly damaging his reputation is likely enough. It's not as if he did lasting harm to someone.. and anyone who can't take a few insults really needs to toughen up. That's not to say that he should accept the racism... but seriously?

You really don't see how implementing your idea would be opening pandora's box in controlling peoples behavior? What's next? Sending someone to prison because they used the wrong pronoun for you?

pgj2015

Deleted User wrote: »

There's quite a difference between not wearing a mask in a public place during a global pandemic, and verbal insults.

Your idea of a fitting punishment is excessive. The punishment of losing his job, and possibly damaging his reputation is likely enough. It's not as if he did lasting harm to someone.. and anyone who can't take a few insults really needs to toughen up. That's not to say that he should accept the racism... but seriously?

You really don't see how implementing your idea would be opening pandora's box in controlling peoples behavior? What's next? Sending someone to prison because they used the wrong pronoun for you?

If the team leader called the employee a p***k or c**t etc then yes its just an insult but what the team leader did was much worse. He acted as if the employee was inferior to him. If you aren't a minority, you cant know what that is like to be on the receiving end of.

What's next? Sending someone to prison because they used the wrong pronoun for you?

really?

biddyearley

Overheal wrote: »

How does knowing their parents country of origin help you manage that?

Have you actually read what I posted? We learn from our parents. The South African black experience is different from the Ghanian experience. The Irish may be predominantly Catholic, but they are very different from Italian Catholics.

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

If the team leader called the employee a p***k or c**t etc then yes its just an insult but what the team leader did was much worse. He acted as if the employee was inferior to him. If you aren't a minority, you cant know what that is like to be on the receiving end of.

I've lived ten years in China, as a distinct minority. My primary city has 9 million Chinese people, with less than 20k foreigners living there full time. Trust me, I've been on the receiving end of all manner of racial slurs. Just as I've experienced them in other countries too, where white people are a minority.

Most insults are intended to suggest inferiority. If I called you a retard, that would be a rather strong suggestion of inferiority. Just as calling you an inbred bastard, would also suggest inferiority for both you and your parents. A racial insult is no worse than any other kind of insult... that is effective in offending the target. (No, mods, I'm not calling him anything. They're just examples)

On the flip side of your claim that I can't know what it's like, how do you know what it's like? To believe that I wouldn't know?

Deleted User wrote:

What's next? Sending someone to prison because they used the wrong pronoun for you?

pgj2015 wrote:

really?

Yes, because you're wanting people sent to prison for making offensive statements. Refusing to call someone by their preferred pronoun would be considered offensive by many transgender people... on par with a racist slur.. Most insults effectiveness depends on the intent behind the insult being used, since it alters the tone of the voice, along with the mannerisms accompanying the word(s).

The point being that considering the way western society and social media has gone, people get outraged for all manner of perceived insults. Putting someone in prison for a racial slur, is just a first step before other sensitive people demand equal protections for their own cases.

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

A judge sentenced some ejit to 3 months in jail lately for refusing to pay a fine for not wearing a mask in a shop, so yes I think prison time would be suitable in this case. 3 or 4 months. its a really evil thing to try to insult someone they way that team leader did, there is something very wrong with someone who would do that and so they need to put straight on the matter, we live in a civilized Country, if you want to act that way, there should be a fitting punishment. Let him act like that in prison and see how he gets on.

Wowsers.

What other words or phrases should end you in jail?

If so.eone called me a honkey bastard, a cracker or accused me of being a white prick or said that I looked like gammon, should they see jail time?

We live in a civilized country. Yet you want people to be jailed for insulting someone?

Who decides what is insulting?

If I was laughing with my friends who are gay and called them a commonly used slur, if they aren't offended is that ok? What if someone overheard and they were offended?

And this thread alone proves that people will find a way to be perpetually offended, personally and on behalf of others.

Jail time for something like this is absurd.

*Edit* klaz beat me to it

Overheal

biddyearley wrote: »

Have you actually read what I posted? We learn from our parents. The South African black experience is different from the Ghanian experience. The Irish may be predominantly Catholic, but they are very different from Italian Catholics.

Different how?

Isn’t any answer going to be purposefully broad generalizing and stereotypical?

Do you think asking where your parents are from is an appropriate job interview question?

How will knowing who someone’s parents are change how you regard the person in front of you?

TomTomTim

Overheal wrote: »

Different how?

Isn’t any answer going to be purposefully broad generalizing and stereotypical?

Do you think asking where your parents are from is an appropriate job interview question?

How will knowing who someone’s parents are change how you regard the person in front of you?

I really don't get why generalizations are seen as such an evil in modern the world. I'm not saying they are without issue, but they can be of value to. Cultures by their very nature create average behaviors, which result in "generalized" outcomes. While of course there's deviations from average behavior, even the "deviants" can hold elements of the average behavior. Whatever about negative generalizations, it's truly absurd that neutral or positive generalizations can be seen as something offensive. This brings us back to another point of hypocrisy: "whiteness". "Anti racist" activists have zero issues generalizing the white race, telling us all that we have "privilege", and are a part of some sort of monster race, capable of little but oppressing others. This is a very mainstream view among such people, a view that people like yourself see no issue with, yet you'll get outraged about people making generalizations about travellers or Africans.

OptimusTractor

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wowsers.

What other words or phrases should end you in jail?

If so.eone called me a honkey bastard, a cracker or accused me of being a white prick or said that I looked like gammon, should they see jail time?

We live in a civilized country. Yet you want people to be jailed for insulting someone?

Who decides what is insulting?

If I was laughing with my friends who are gay and called them a commonly used slur, if they aren't offended is that ok? What if someone overheard and they were offended?

And this thread alone proves that people will find a way to be perpetually offended, personally and on behalf of others.

Jail time for something like this is absurd.

*Edit* klaz beat me to it

You could an argue that if we were in a civilised society we would be overt insulting to one another.

OptimusTractor

OptimusTractor wrote: »

You could an argue that if we were in a civilised society we would be overt insulting to one another.

Perhaps, but only if you imagine civilised society to be one where everyone agrees and everyone is insulted/offended by the same thing.

Just because someone feels insulted/victimised, doesn't always mean that they were.

Insulted/offended is a variable based on many factors.

There will always be arseholes in society who have no problem purposely offending people and it's right to acknowledge this and call them out on it.

But there are also arseholes in society who feign offense and have no problem using race/sex/orientation as a tool for shutting down people they don't like.

I've said it a million times, genuine racism is being ignored because of idiots who love to call everything racist.

Overheal

TomTomTim wrote: »

I really don't get why generalizations are seen as such an evil in modern the world. I'm not saying they are without issue, but they can be of value to. Cultures by their very nature create average behaviors, which result in "generalized" outcomes. While of course there's deviations from average behavior, even the "deviants" can hold elements of the average behavior. Whatever about negative generalizations, it's truly absurd that neutral or positive generalizations can be seen as something offensive. This brings us back to another point of hypocrisy: "whiteness". "Anti racist" activists have zero issues generalizing the white race, telling us all that we have "privilege", and are a part of some sort of monster race, capable of little but oppressing others. This is a very mainstream view among such people, a view that people like yourself see no issue with, yet you'll get outraged about people making generalizations about travellers or Africans.

That doesn’t really explain what generalizations an employer is looking to know/exploit by knowing what country my parents are from? What is the professional utility?