President condemns brutal old IRA execution of elderly woman

She was in informer. Not a civilian, a criminal at best by informing on the IRA, an enemy at worst.

Back when capital punishment was still handed out for crimes.....so why is this even being resurrected from the past

maccored

Allinall wrote: »

OP. You called for Varadkar to come out and condemn the actions of the old IRA.

Can I ask what difference this would make to you, me or anyone else?

should be the same as anyone calling out the actions of any version of the IRA surely?

guy2231

maccored wrote: »

should be the same as anyone calling out the actions of any version of the IRA surely?

Apparently not

Hamsterchops

I remember hearing a story about Countess Markievicz who according to this account shot dead an unarmed policeman at point range in Stephens Green, this after he had asked her and her "revolutionary" group to move along out of the park .......

Quite a blot on her copybook too I would imagine, or maybe a badge of honour?

guy2231

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I remember hearing a story about Countess Markievicz who according to this account shot dead an unarmed policeman at point range in Stephens Green, this after he had asked her and her "revolutionary" group to move along out of the park .......

Quite a blot on her copybook too I would imagine, or maybe a badge of honour?

What are you even on about

Hamsterchops

guy2231 wrote: »

What are you even on about?

President Higgins condemns murder by old IRA of elderly woman, and I've just remembered another murder involving the old IRA, or maybe she was active before the IRA was born? Either way, she murdered somebody.

guy2231

Hamsterchops wrote: »

President Higgins condemns murder by old IRA of elderly woman, and I've just remembered another murder involving the old IRA, or maybe she was active before the IRA was born? Either way, she murdered somebody.

Sorry I misunderstood, that's true most of the old IRAs preferred targets were Irish police (IRISHMEN) rather than the army, most of the time they attacked them when they were off duty and murdered them in front of their families.

Hamsterchops

This constable was in St Stephens Green without his family, as he was on duty at the time.

boetstark

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Oh shut up. It was a war that was fought 100 years ago, your whining and virtue signaling isn't going to solve anything. Those two people are dead and gone and you're not going to bring them back. Micheál Martin is the Taoiseach, not Varadkar so go and get your facts straight. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael didn't exist back then, so how can they have blood on their hands? The very nature of war is that people have to die, how do you expect one army to deal with collaborators? Seriously? You have those men to thank for our freedom, Irish freedom but then again with your lack of knowledge you're probably not even Irish, in which case, why do you care?

Actually it's you that is short on the facts of the case. Mary lindsay told the British army and a local priest so that both sides could avoid casualties.
It was callous murder

Hoboo

boetstark wrote: »

Actually it's you that is short on the facts of the case. Mary lindsay told the British army and a local priest so that both sides could avoid casualties.
It was callous murder

She was a well off protestant who informed on the IRA which lead to the capture and murder of 5 men. The priest was anti IRA, he also informed the British Army.

She wanted to avoid British Army casualties, she got caught, she paid the price.

maccored

guy2231 wrote: »

Apparently not

ah yes, the old classic 'the old IRA were good but the PIRA were bad' ... some of them actually believe themselves saying that.

Hamsterchops

maccored wrote: »

ah yes, the old classic 'the old IRA were good but the PIRA were bad' ... some of them actually believe themselves saying that.

Trying to muddy the waters are we?

Obviously the PIRA were bad, and goodness knows there are enough threads about them and their brutal reign, but this is about an old IRA murder from long long ago.

guy2231

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Trying to muddy the waters are we?

Obviously the PIRA were bad, and goodness knows there are enough threads about them and their brutal reign, but this is about an old IRA murder from long long ago.

Why were they so bad? The political wing of the Provional IRA is now the largest political party in Ireland, the most popular party in the republic and second most popular in the north with many former provos currently serving in both governments, so they couldn't have been that bad if they went on to accomplish that.

What in particular makes them so much worse than the old IRA? Can you please specify for me as the other posters seem to disappear when asked that question.

The old IRA killed far more civilians in respective of years and disappeared far more people in their 3 year campaign than the provos did in 30 years.

Titzon Toast

She got was she deserved. No great loss in the long term.

Stovepipe

guy2231 wrote: »

Sorry I misunderstood, that's true most of the old IRAs preferred targets were Irish police (IRISHMEN) rather than the army, most of the time they attacked them when they were off duty and murdered them in front of their families.

My Old IRA grandfather said that the routine was as follows: RIC members were warned to quit the service and they tended to be warned more than once, to the point where their families were threatened and quite often, they quit the force or moved to the cities. The IRA wanted their Lee-Enfield rifles badly and were quite prepared to shoot to kill to get them. Sympathisers in the RIC were identified and were kept in place to provide intelligence or assist in the robbery of guns and ammunition. Also, because of the prevalence of Irishmen in the British Army, there were attempts to get them over to the IRA side. There was a reluctance to directly attack them because they were mobile, well armed and usually outnumbered the IRA so open combat was avoided,as the constant shortage of ammunition and a scarcity of secure safe houses meant that many attacks were called off or abandoned. For every attack that went ahead, there was probably a dozen that failed or were called off. Enemies like the Tans and Auxiliaries were regarded as valid targets from the off. As for shooting informers, alleged or otherwise, it soon evolved that care had to be taken to guarantee that the case against someone had to be genuine, because it transpired that scores were being settled over slights, alleged or actual and some IRA people were gun-happy and were killing people for no good reason. Atrocities originated from both sides and the IRA were no saints and Grandad was quite clear about that.

Hamsterchops

guy2231 wrote: »

Why were they so bad?

The Provos!

I presume with that stupid comment you are trying to provocative :rolleyes:

Not going for your bait.

guy2231

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The Provos!

I presume with that stupid comment you are trying to provocative :rolleyes:

Not going for your bait.

When asked the question about what made the provos so bad in comparison to the old, the posters on here seem to disappear from the thread in a way similar to many of the old IRAs victims, ironic.

maccored

guy2231 wrote: »

When asked the question about what made the provos so bad in comparison to the old, the posters on here seem to disappear from the thread in a way similar to many of the old IRAs victims, ironic.

its because they know they will have to answer to their contradictions.

maccored

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Trying to muddy the waters are we?

Obviously the PIRA were bad, and goodness knows there are enough threads about them and their brutal reign, but this is about an old IRA murder from long long ago.

not muddying the waters - I was looking for clarity. This waffle about how the old ira were in some way heoric yet the provos were murdering scum is the stuff you hear four gen 'Irish' living in america talking about.

coolisin

Just dropping this in here to wind the OP up as it almost fits with the original post accept this "old woman" was getting firewood with kids.

28th May 1921
Carriglea, Waterford
Mary Foley, a deaf OAP in her mid-70s is out with her grandchildren gathering sticks for her fire.
Crown Forces see her and order her to halt. The deaf woman does not hear the call, and she is shot dead by the patrol.

guy2231

coolisin wrote: »

Just dropping this in here to wind the OP up as it almost fits with the original post accept this "old woman" was getting firewood with kids.

28th May 1921
Carriglea, Waterford
Mary Foley, a deaf OAP in her mid-70s is out with her grandchildren gathering sticks for her fire.
Crown Forces see her and order her to halt. The deaf woman does not hear the call, and she is shot dead by the patrol.

And this is supposed to justify the IRA killing of an elderly woman?

guy2231

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/old-ira-disappearances-off-the-scale-compared-with-pira-1.3602395?mode=amp

"Research calls into into question so-called moral superiority of old IRA" says historian.

Old IRA disappearances ‘off the scale’ compared with PIRA"

Donald Trump

guy2231 wrote: »

And this is supposed to justify the IRA killing of an elderly woman?

Those "Crown Forces" were going around the country and summarily executing people and sacking towns and villages.


The woman informed on people who got executed by them. Whether she meant for that to happen, the people who were direct targets of those same Crown Forces could not allow a situation to develop where people could inform on them and expect to get away with it. Informing on them was basically signing their death warrants.

namloc1980

guy2231 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/old-ira-disappearances-off-the-scale-compared-with-pira-1.3602395?mode=amp

"Research calls into into question so-called moral superiority of old IRA" says historian.

Old IRA disappearances ‘off the scale’ compared with PIRA"

Are you only finding out now that wars are dirty and bad things happen during them? Because that's what these posts read like.

guy2231

namloc1980 wrote: »

Are you only finding out now that wars are dirty and bad things happen during them? Because that's what these posts read like.

Apparently that doesn't apply to the provisonal IRA it only applies to the old, the hypocricy of people justifying all this behaviour while using the same things to demonise PIRA\SF is laughable.

So you justfiy disappearing people, teenage boys, elderly women because "wars are dirty and bad things happen"?

namloc1980

guy2231 wrote: »

Apparently that doesn't apply to the provisonal IRA it only applies to the old, the hypocricy of people justifying all this behaviour while using the same things to demonise PIRA\SF is laughable.

Impressive level of whataboutery there. But but but the provos. Your strawman arguments are very tiresome.

guy2231

namloc1980 wrote: »

Impressive level of whataboutery there. But but but the provos. Your strawman arguments are very tiresome.

So you do justify disappearing young boys and elderly women? Good work by the lads was it?

Not much old IRA bad deeds got reported on because any media outlets that talked bad about the IRA Collins used to send the boys round to smash up the place and threaten them.

namloc1980

guy2231 wrote: »

So you do justify disappearing young boys and elderly women? Good work by the lads was it?

Not much old IRA bad deeds got reported on because any media outlets that talked bad about the IRA Collins used to send the boys round to smash up the place and threaten them.

More disgusting strawmen arguments from you - it's basically all you've contributed to the thread which is attributing things to people that they didn't say. Grow up ffs.

Titzon Toast

guy2231 wrote: »

And this is supposed to justify the IRA killing of an elderly woman?

That elderly woman was giving information to the Crown forces, an occupying force on our island.
She knew the consequences of her actions and got what she deserved.

Conall Cernach

The op says that the informer was 60, that's hardly elderly. Nowadays we'd call that middle-aged.