Sheepdog training

arctictree

Lads, looking for some hints on training a young collie I have. I'm new to this...

I have been teaching her commands the last few weeks and she will stand, lie down and walk on, no problem.

This morning, I picked 5 empty hoggets and put them in a field behind the house.

So when I let her off, she initially races at them and grabs one by the wool. When all this has calmed down we just end up with the sheep in the corner and her standing about 10 feet away keeping them there. They just wont move. Eventually I can push them along the fence but they just wont follow me. They just stand there looking at the dog.

Any tips?!!

orm0nd

Search for Ted Hope videos on YouTube

What age is the dog.

MayoAreMagic

To be honest, my advice would be sell her and buy a trained dog. Doesnt have to be a hero, just a working dog. Ive been in your position and it turned out that i just didnt have the experience to train the dog at the time and i made a mess of it. Having a trained one will train you too, and you will be in tune with how dogs work. I persevered when someone gave me this advice and it was a mistake. You might manage it but the truth is it isnt an easy thing to do.

wrangler

arctictree wrote: »

Lads, looking for some hints on training a young collie I have. I'm new to this...

I have been teaching her commands the last few weeks and she will stand, lie down and walk on, no problem.

This morning, I picked 5 empty hoggets and put them in a field behind the house.

So when I let her off, she initially races at them and grabs one by the wool. When all this has calmed down we just end up with the sheep in the corner and her standing about 10 feet away keeping them there. They just wont move. Eventually I can push them along the fence but they just wont follow me. They just stand there looking at the dog.

Any tips?!!

Sounds like she has the making of a good one. I'd always clip a 20ft rope to her collar when training...... at least when she chases them you can stand on the rope.
Towing the rope tires them quicker too

arctictree

orm0nd wrote: »

Search for Ted Hope videos on YouTube

What age is the dog.

Thanks, she's nearly nine months and very fast, has no problem catching up with them.

arctictree

Have been advised to get them into a round pen in the middle of the field for a few weeks and teach her the flanking commands slowly. Will try that before i let her on loose sheep again as she seems very keen.

148multi

arctictree wrote: »

Have been advised to get them into a round pen in the middle of the field for a few weeks and teach her the flanking commands slowly. Will try that before i let her on loose sheep again as she seems very keen.

Make a pen in the field, make sure she can't get through the gates, a pen of 60' min. Do the sheep flock very tight with her.
Describe what the dog is doing with her eyes when the sheep are in the corner, and the position of her tail.

arctictree

148multi wrote: »

Make a pen in the field, make sure she can't get through the gates, a pen of 60' min. Do the sheep flock very tight with her.
Describe what the dog is doing with her eyes when the sheep are in the corner, and the position of her tail.

Made the pen earlier, was quite successful. She went immediately to the 12 o clock position and i gave her the flanking commands as I moved left and right and she went the right ways. I'll just keep at this for a few weeks and see how I go.

I think my problem maybe the sheep I have. They just stand there looking at her instead of moving around. Too tame. I'll have some weaned lambs soon that are quite wild and I'll try her on them when she's off the round pen. Maybe in July.

orm0nd

arctictree wrote: »

Made the pen earlier, was quite successful. She went immediately to the 12 o clock position and i gave her the flanking commands as I moved left and right and she went the right ways. I'll just keep at this for a few weeks and see how I go.

I think my problem maybe the sheep I have. They just stand there looking at her instead of moving around. Too tame. I'll have some weaned lambs soon that are quite wild and I'll try her on them when she's off the round pen. Maybe in July.

Little and often and if the dog isn't doing as she should any day just call her up and leave it for another day.

We've s young bitch as well and I reckon she will need a lot of time but plenty of power and very willing.

joe35

What size is your round pen. I made up 1 here with a 100m of sheep wire.

I'm trying to train a dog here, I've him flanking the sheep both ways at present. When I'm inside the pen he's on the outside and will run right round the fence behind me. (Outside flank)

If I stand outside, back from the fence, about 10 foot. I can, sometimes, get him to flank inside. Between me and the sheep.

He's fairly good at commands in side the pen just need to keep working on him.

My main problem is he wants to run away when works over. I thought at first that he was afraid of me, but realising now that when he thinks"fun time" is over he won't come in behind.

Apart from that he's coming along nicely

arctictree

joe35 wrote: »

What size is your round pen. I made up 1 here with a 100m of sheep wire.

I'm trying to train a dog here, I've him flanking the sheep both ways at present. When I'm inside the pen he's on the outside and will run right round the fence behind me. (Outside flank)

If I stand outside, back from the fence, about 10 foot. I can, sometimes, get him to flank inside. Between me and the sheep.

He's fairly good at commands in side the pen just need to keep working on him.

My main problem is he wants to run away when works over. I thought at first that he was afraid of me, but realising now that when he thinks"fun time" is over he won't come in behind.

Apart from that he's coming along nicely

Sounds good. I have her doing the flanking commands now on the outside of the round pen no problem. What you need is her on a really long rope so that when she's at 12 o clock, the rope is at your feet and you can give your finish command (that'll do) and stand on the rope so she can't run away. A tip I picked up is 3 out of 4 times after she comes back, praise her and then let her back on the sheep. Otherwise she'll associate coming back to you with end of fun time.

My biggest problem I have is that the ewes I have spend their time staring down the dog instead of staying close to me. I fear that when I get them out of the round pen that they just won't move and might attack the dog and ruin her. I'm tempted to just keep her on the round pen training until I have weaned lambs in about 6 weeks...

Limestone Cowboy

Have a young pup here with the last month just gone 14 weeks. He's mad keen, have him walking well on the lead, lying down, walking on and coming back to me well now and he's getting used to travelling around on the jeep, quad and tractor. Is it to soon to do any more with him? First time trying to train a dog so its all new to me. As soon as he sees the sheep or the cattle he has the head down and he's stalking them. Reckon he has the makings of a right good dog if I could train him right.

arctictree

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a young pup here with the last month just gone 14 weeks. He's mad keen, have him walking well on the lead, lying down, walking on and coming back to me well now and he's getting used to travelling around on the jeep, quad and tractor. Is it to soon to do any more with him? First time trying to train a dog so its all new to me. As soon as he sees the sheep or the cattle he has the head down and he's stalking them. Reckon he has the makings of a right good dog if I could train him right.

Sounds like he has it in him. He's a bit young to start on sheep though, give him a few months...

arctictree

An update on my progress. I now start in the round pen and then bring them out into the field. Generally there's chaos for a few minutes but when things have calmed down I can walk up and down the field backwards with her flanking the sheep on command. Now teaching her to stay back a bit and walk on, on command. I had to muzzle her to stop her gripping the sheep, would like opinions on that?

wrangler

arctictree wrote: »

An update on my progress. I now start in the round pen and then bring them out into the field. Generally there's chaos for a few minutes but when things have calmed down I can walk up and down the field backwards with her flanking the sheep on command. Now teaching her to stay back a bit and walk on, on command. I had to muzzle her to stop her gripping the sheep, would like opinions on that?

A good trick is to put their front paw in their collar so they have to run on three legs, when they go bite they fall on their head. your's might be a bit young for that yet

148multi

arctictree wrote: »

An update on my progress. I now start in the round pen and then bring them out into the field. Generally there's chaos for a few minutes but when things have calmed down I can walk up and down the field backwards with her flanking the sheep on command. Now teaching her to stay back a bit and walk on, on command. I had to muzzle her to stop her gripping the sheep, would like opinions on that?

It's not hard to stop the griping, but first do you intend to use her with cattle.

148multi

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have a young pup here with the last month just gone 14 weeks. He's mad keen, have him walking well on the lead, lying down, walking on and coming back to me well now and he's getting used to travelling around on the jeep, quad and tractor. Is it to soon to do any more with him? First time trying to train a dog so its all new to me. As soon as he sees the sheep or the cattle he has the head down and he's stalking them. Reckon he has the makings of a right good dog if I could train him right.

Very small bits, he's not developed physically for full work yet.

arctictree

148multi wrote: »

It's not hard to stop the griping, but first do you intend to use her with cattle.

No, she'll be just used for sheep. I now take the muzzle off halfway through the session and all is OK. I think though that the sheep are more trained now than the dog! They tend to just bunch around me with her running in circles around us. I hope to get a new larger batch of ewe lambs next week so we'll see where we are then.

148multi

arctictree wrote: »

No, she'll be just used for sheep. I now take the muzzle off halfway through the session and all is OK. I think though that the sheep are more trained now than the dog! They tend to just bunch around me with her running in circles around us. I hope to get a new larger batch of ewe lambs next week so we'll see where we are then.

Get a long Hazel branch with a light shopping bag over the twigs, shake it at her to balance her on the sheep, the sound of the bag should work. there's a reason why they flock around you. If she ignores that you may have to use something more severe. Try to train a keep out command and that will help balance the sheep.

Limestone Cowboy

148multi wrote: »

Very small bits, he's not developed physically for full work yet.

I know that, he's not fast enough yet to get ahead of them anyway. I set up a round pen a few evenings ago just to give him a run around them the odd evening for 5 minutes and be teaching him his sides and get him stopping around sheep. He has taken to it fairly well so far.

148multi

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I know that, he's not fast enough yet to get ahead of them anyway. I set up a round pen a few evenings ago just to give him a run around them the odd evening for 5 minutes and be teaching him his sides and get him stopping around sheep. He has taken to it fairly well so far.

That's great to hear, the structure of the dog affects his /her speed. But work can damage the joints of a young dog.if you intend working cattle the goats with long ears are great to train with.

Limestone Cowboy

Have made good progress with my lad the last few days. Picked out 4 quiet hoggets and put them into a small paddock and he's handling them fairly well now. He has his sides figured out now and is stopping really well and bringing the sheep to me. Hopefully try and start him doing bits of short out runs now and try him working a small bit away from me. One of the most headwrecking and satisfying things I have ever attempted doing all rolled into one He's getting a lot more confident around them too, there was a few times the sheep tried to take refuge against the fence and he has no bother now going into the gap to push them off it, he wouldn't have done that a week ago.

148multi

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have made good progress with my lad the last few days. Picked out 4 quiet hoggets and put them into a small paddock and he's handling them fairly well now. He has his sides figured out now and is stopping really well and bringing the sheep to me. Hopefully try and start him doing bits of short out runs now and try him working a small bit away from me. One of the most headwrecking and satisfying things I have ever attempted doing all rolled into one He's getting a lot more confident around them too, there was a few times the sheep tried to take refuge against the fence and he has no bother now going into the gap to push them off it, he wouldn't have done that a week ago.

That's great to hear.
When the dots connect with him, you'll feel like you won an Olympic gold medal.

arctictree

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Have made good progress with my lad the last few days. Picked out 4 quiet hoggets and put them into a small paddock and he's handling them fairly well now. He has his sides figured out now and is stopping really well and bringing the sheep to me. Hopefully try and start him doing bits of short out runs now and try him working a small bit away from me. One of the most headwrecking and satisfying things I have ever attempted doing all rolled into one He's getting a lot more confident around them too, there was a few times the sheep tried to take refuge against the fence and he has no bother now going into the gap to push them off it, he wouldn't have done that a week ago.

Amazing how much they progress in a few weeks when the effort is put in. I have now weaned my lambs and started my bitch on a new batch of 24 today. She's heading up the side of them now and getting them off the fence much better. Although sometimes I feel like I'm training the sheep as much as the dog!!

orm0nd

orm0nd wrote: »

Little and often and if the dog isn't doing as she should any day just call her up and leave it for another day.

We've s young bitch as well and I reckon she will need a lot of time but plenty of power and very willing.

we have done very little with our lady but she's showing serious potential

she's has massive power and all the moves just needs a bit more on the commands when she's working , still young and don't want to breAk her confidence

Limestone Cowboy

arctictree wrote: »

Amazing how much they progress in a few weeks when the effort is put in. I have now weaned my lambs and started my bitch on a new batch of 24 today. She's heading up the side of them now and getting them off the fence much better. Although sometimes I feel like I'm training the sheep as much as the dog!!

Ya I see mine now after only a few days are straight in around me when I bring him out to them. My sheep are fair quiet though and truth be told I don't need a dog for working them but was hoping in time he'd work with the cattle where he would be a godsend in the wintertime bringing cattle out of the winterage. Not sure if he will though, he's interested in them alright but there's no bit of a nip in him at all. I'll keep him away from them until the end of the year anyway and see then. He might be tougher than I think.

funkey_monkey

How old can you start training a dog? Ours was meant to go out for training at the start of Covid, but never made it so is approaching 2 and not yet been introduced to sheep. He stalks the calves in the pens - will stay all day looking in at them running along the gate. Probably have left it too late here, but would like an opinion before giving up on him.

jd06

Hi all

In the last 4 weeks I got a dog 12 months old with nothing done at all but I know hes very well bred.

Problem is hes very shy doesn't like being rubbed or handled and if I let him off he will not come back hes always cowering away

The other problem is he not showing much interest in sheep .an odd time he makes a drive at them but rarely

I know I haven't him long and I'm trying to build up trust any ideas on getting him to come to me

Thanks

The DayDream

Sounds like the dog wasn't socialized properly or even mistreated before you got him. Collies are very sensitive and shy ones take a long time to come around and will always have a bit of that - he may never make a good working dog but he could if you spend all day with him and he figures out bit by bit your routine. He certainly won't work until he trusts you and knows you are someone he can trust not to take a hand at him.

They are very sensitive to noise and tone of voice. If you are trying to train a skittish one by shouting you've no hope. They are usually smart enough you don't need to shout too hard to get them to do what you want anyway, you hear lots of lads do it but their dogs aren't nervous like that.

Talk to him like he's a baby (he still is really) very softly. Forget about the sheep training and let him get settled in. He has no idea what he's there for if he isn't trained and he won't work for you until he knows you're the lovely man who feeds him and never hurts him.

My girl I got 11 months old 9 years ago she was no good for sheep anyway and was skittish it took 2 months for her to come over to me and she is just a pet. Shame cuz she's actually very smart and fast as lightning but all she likes to do is play fetch with a ball.

Get one of those ball throwers that come with a tennis ball they're a fiver in most shops. They help the ball go farther and you don't have to touch the dirty ball. Never seen a collie who didnt got mad for this game.

Teach him to bring the ball back so you can throw it again. Once he learns that game you can walk out with the sheep and he might want to learn the next game of herding. Collies quickly learn routines and what to expect or what's expected of them when it's repeated each day.

jd06

Fairplay daydream that's all very good advice

I'm not doing much with him maybe 20 min a day or so.

He definitely wasn't mistreated so hes probably just nervous

Would doggy treats work to get him coming back ?

Limestone Cowboy

I wouldn't be worrying about him around the sheep yet either. My pup here is shy enough aswell, grand with myself and the missus but he won't go to anyone else. I'd say just to spend a good bit of time with him until he's used to you. Small things like bringing him in the jeep for an hour when you are doing the herding or bringing him into the house for an hour in the evening and he won't be long building a bond with you. A few treats and plenty of praise will help.

jd06

Yes I think your right. Its gonna take time.

Did your dog get going after limstone

Limestone Cowboy

Milestone moment today. Stood at the gate and sent him off on a fairly long outrun to gather 25 very stubborn hoggets and he brought them right up and out the gate and into the yard for me. Nice to see all the training starting to turn into something useful. He has rightly toughened up now, not afraid to shove into a ewe now if she's trying to boss him and it has made all the difference.

arctictree

Great to have those moments, when it all seems worth it!

jd06

Update not good I'm afraid.

I'm working him 2 months now and its not going well he has no interest in sheep. Hes ok on commands but the penny hasn't dropped about the sheep. He has no interest in staring at sheep or when I'm working in the crush he has no interest in them.

He does the command even if theres no sheep in the field.The sheep are just in the way if hes doing his thing. Pity I like him.

Hes 16 months now and I have him out every day. Sadly hes not giving me anything to work with

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117368601#Comment_117368601

How horrible.

Limestone Cowboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981000#Comment_117981000

It is alright. He was always very biddable and intelligent but was just lacking that bit of confidence to shove into them and get them moving if they didn't want to move. Was driving me mad to be honest, when I was training his flanks, lie down, calling him off etc he picked up all those things in a few days but I'm 2 months solid trying to get him to drive them and there was no improvement any day until the penny finally dropped and he figured out he was the boss. He even put them out through a mucky gap for me yesterday that they really didn't want to go through, took a lot of pressure to get them moving but he did it. Not a hope in hell would he have moved them through it a few weeks ago.

Kevhog1988

Bought a collie pup here ourselves a few weeks ago. Has lie down , wait, sit etc mastered. Would be hoping she'll work our few sheep but also be a pet. Someone has said ill make her too soft by treating her as a pet. Any truth in that?.12 weeks old at the moment. She will corner sheep on her own when we have her out in the field so theres definitely some work in her.

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982633#Comment_117982633

We kind of have the opposite problem. My bitch is one year old on Monday and is going well on the sheep. She's terrified of the wife though and nervous of the kids. I thought she could be a family dog but not too sure now. I think she's just bred too strong as a sheepdog. Pity, because our family dog of 14 years died a few weeks ago (a spaniel).

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981792#Comment_117981792

Every dog is very different. Mine was always very aggressive with the sheep but she's calmed down a lot now. Still has a relapse occasionally and tries to grip and I need to be quick in there.

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981522#Comment_117981522

I saw an old trick that is used sometimes to bring out the hunting instinct in a disinterested dog.

Get the sheep in a pen with the dog in the corner watching. Then just grab a sheep. This can spark the killer instinct in the dog as he thinks you have chosen one to kill. Be careful though as you may get bitten!

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998775#Comment_117998775

Strange to be nervous of a woman. Often see dogs afraid of men but havent come across one the other way around

Kevhog1988

Bit of work with her this morning. She pushed some ram lambs down the field to the pen and kept them bunched on the fence. Nice that shes showing interest

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065742#Comment_118065742

To be able to train a dog is wonderful but they will learn a lot themselves if you always bring them with you.

I never went in for fancy training methods, it was always the 20ft rope at the start and let them figure it out themselves after that.

My last two dogs went deaf so have had to resort to hand signals, but I find it great compared to shouting as I cant either whistle or work a whistle.

If he's keen you'll really enjoy bringing him out

Skipduke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982633#Comment_117982633

think treating the dog as a pet is vital. some lads lock their dogs up 99% of the day in damp cold sheds. was on a farm last year, all dogs and pups tied under trees. poor dogs are treated terribly.

for us when the dog isn't working and we are home, the dogs are trained to stay in the back yard or they wander into their kennels. you have to have that trust. no good dealing with a wild thing or a poor timid dog that doesn't go near you.

148multi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982633#Comment_117982633

Have always played with my working dogs,it part of their nature.

You wouldn't see much softness in them gathering the sucklers.

roosky

Hi all,

my dog is just gone a year old now and starting to work well but needs a lot of talking to to keep her calm and stop her getting over excited.

im struggling to get out with her every day with her now due to short days, have ye worked a dog in the dark or a well lit yard ?

Kevhog1988

Found this thread again when searching for something else. How are all your dogs doing?. My one is doing more than I thought she'd ever do. Really come on this past yr. Find the big thing is use them as much as possible even if it's a small job.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859392#Comment_121859392

Most sheepdogs will train themselves, Our dog cost €50 and does all we want but she'd be great if we had more work. she loves working..

arctictree

I see in the west that the rescue centres are inundated with collies. Couple of years ago they were going for big money. There was a plea gone out to farmers to spay their females.

Bleating Lamb

Would anyone recommend a good sheep dog trainer/farmer who sells trained sheepdogs in any county in Connacht, or Donegal/Fermanagh areas?

My dog is getting on and is a bitch and I am tempted to try and get a litter of pups off her by a good sheepdog before it's too late. She is around 8 years old and never was pregnant. Would she still be able to conceive at her age now?...........

She was an excellent dog, my father bought her at a year old trained, from an elderly dog trainer from Donegal who has passed away since. She has a great outrun and keeps sheep in a tight bunch while bringing them into pen, yard etc. Only fault she has now is one she developed in last few years, which is that when she just about has the sheep successfully through a gap/or put into a pen 5 times out of 10 she makes a burst to the front to stop the sheep going into the pen!🙄..........but once you let a roar at her she comes back out behind the sheep and does the correct thing😀

If I successfully got a litter of pups from her I would send one or two of the pups off to be trained, alternatively if she is not able to conceive I will be on the lookout to buy a young trained dog so would really appreciate any recommendations of good trainers/dog sellers that people have come across or dealt with in the last few years.

Thanks for any replies🙂