remains of 215 children found buried near residential school in Canada

Donald Trump

Smee_Again wrote: »

But you know they died and were buried and where they were buried, these kids just disappeared or were disappeared with no paperwork, investigations or anything.

You’re not comparing like and like and it’s a very transparent attempt to deflect attention away from yet another scandal involving the Catholic Church and their complete disregard for the lives of those entrusted to their care.

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

Timberrrrrrrr

Donald Trump wrote: »

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

Wow! So you're more concerned that this makes the RCC (and lets not forget the Canadian government at the time were also complicit in this) look bad than the children and thier families.

Donald Trump

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Wow! So you're more concerned that this makes the RCC (and lets not forget the Canadian government at the time were also complicit in this) look bad than the children and thier families.

Ya wha'?

You're making things up now.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

Well going by the figures I'm seeing for child deaths in Ireland, if 2 children from every school year died over the 8 years they are in primary school in every school in the country we would have an INSANE number of child deaths.

So your figure is definitely high.

As usual emotional responses and mud slinging when people try to ascertain the full facts.

Smee_Again

Donald Trump wrote: »

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

I’m probably one of the few people on this thread who have worked on a First Nations Reservation so know first hand the struggles facing the First Nations so hearing this news isn’t all that surprising.

Even less surprising is how you and probably others like you will downplay the part the CC played in it and the gaslighting you’ll do to achieve that goal.

LLMMLL

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

As usual emotional responses and mud slinging when people try to ascertain the full facts.

Please present us with the relevant facts?

Do you have a comparison of death rates to enlighten us?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Please present us with the relevant facts?

Do you have a comparison of death rates to enlighten us?

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

LLMMLL

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

You're already in the discussion. So shouldn't make a difference to you.

Can you provide the facts so?

Gatling

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

I wouldn't even bother engaging.

Gatling

riffmongous wrote: »

Sick, and one of the worst things is that's what's happening in China at the moment to the Uyghurs and there's f'all we can do about

Unfortunately it's not considered cool to make noise about unlike cool things like climate change and BLM ,
How many people even mention Tiananmen Square these days ,
It's usually ah sure didn't America do this and that

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ya wha'?

You're making things up now.

In fairness, your first response has been to downplay it. This is exactly how certain individuals responded to Tuam. Downplay it, claim that it was standard practice and it was not as serious as it appears to be. Regardless of if it was a child or two dying per year, they were still being put in unmarked graves. It's also indicative of the RCC systemically doing it in more than just one country.

goose2005

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And that the RCC would be involved somehow.

Actually about half of them were run by Protestants:

the number of schools operating at one time peaked at 80 in 1931. Of those schools, 44 were operated by Roman Catholics; 21 were operated by the Church of England / Anglican Church of Canada; 13 were operated by the United Church of Canada, and 2 were operated by Presbyterians.

Timberrrrrrrr

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually about half of them were run by Protestants:

The thread is about this particular school though

 It was opened and run by the Catholic Church until the federal government took it over in the late 1960s.

Cluedo Monopoly

More on it here.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said it was a "painful reminder" of a "shameful chapter of our country's history".

The First Nation is working with museum specialists and the coroner's office to establish the causes and timings of the deaths, which are not currently known.

Rosanne Casimir, the chief of the community in British Columbia's city of Kamloops, said the preliminary finding represented an unthinkable loss that was never documented by the school's administrators.

From about 1863 to 1998, more than 150,000 indigenous children were taken from their families and placed in these schools.

The children were often not allowed to speak their language or to practise their culture, and many were mistreated and abused.

A commission launched in 2008 to document the impacts of this system found that large numbers of indigenous children never returned to their home communities.

The landmark Truth and Reconciliation report, released in 2015, said the policy amounted to "cultural genocide".

In 2008, the Canadian government formally apologised for the system.

The Missing Children Project documents the deaths and the burial places of children who died while attending the schools. To date, more than 4,100 children who died while attending a residential school have been identified, it says.

ILoveYourVibes

Good lord so sad. RIP. I hope there is an investigation and lessons learned.

Widdensushi

Horrific, but after an initial reaction and after reading what is here I will wait a bit longer to judge this. If the majority are historic, it's possible with higher child mortality and maybe the Spanish flu that many would be explainable. Obviously there was plenty of innocents murdered by some monsters, but the amount of children v the mortality needs to be looked at rather than the headline figure.

Widdensushi

Widdensushi wrote: »

Horrific, but after an initial reaction and after reading what is here I will wait a bit longer to judge this. If the majority are historic, it's possible with higher child mortality and maybe the Spanish flu that many would be explainable. Obviously there was plenty of innocents murdered by some monsters, but the amount of children v the mortality needs to be looked at rather than the headline figure.

THeres no place for practical and logical processes in this thread. Emotional mudslinging only

riffmongous

The commission ultimately determined that at least 3,200 children died while a student at a Residential School; one in every 50 students enrolled during the program’s nearly 120-year existence. That’s a death rate comparable to the number of Canadian POWs who died in the custody of Nazi Germany during the Second World War.

But despite occasional efforts at reform, even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.

The deadly reputations of residential schools were well-known to officials at the time. Kuper Island Residential School, located near Chemainus, B.C., saw the deaths of nearly one third of its student population in the years following its opening in 1889. “The Indians are inclined to boycott this school on account of so many deaths,” wrote a school inspector in 1922.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/newly-discovered-b-c-graves-a-grim-reminder-of-the-heartbreaking-death-toll-of-residential-schools

Cluedo Monopoly

riffmongous wrote: »

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/newly-discovered-b-c-graves-a-grim-reminder-of-the-heartbreaking-death-toll-of-residential-schools

Thanks. I don't think those that like to muddy the waters will like hard data like that even though they were supposedly looking for it.

the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.

In comparison the death rate at the Bessborough Mother and Baby home during the 1930s and 1940s was 68%.

Christy42

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

You know 2% of all kids don't die in Ireland every year. Stop saying it might be average or low. Your year was massively unfortunate (not saying it doesn't happen, take enough groups of 100 kids and you will likely get 2 deaths in at least 1 of the groups but the vast majority of groups would not see 2 or even any deaths).

It is miles above the Irish average in an attempt to muddy the waters.

Gatling

By reports seems TB was the biggest killer at the time due to a lack of medical interventions ,most places likely had no access to anything but the bare basics of medicine ,
TB , measles,flu and numerous other infections and diseases would have gone through homes like wildfires , there is probably similar number of deaths in isolated communities with lack of medical care at the time ,

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

By reports seems TB was the biggest killer at the time due to a lack of medical interventions ,most places likely had no access to anything but the bare basics of medicine ,
TB , measles,flu and numerous other infections and diseases would have gone through homes like wildfires , there is probably similar number of deaths in isolated communities with lack of medical care at the time ,

And the issue still goes back to the graves being unmarked and deaths often being entirely undocumented.... You're aware of how many have searched for lost love ones who turned out to be unmarked graves in Ireland alone, right? These same people didn't know if they were dead or alive for decades. The cause of death is a potential issue but not the sole one.

Christy42

Gatling wrote: »

By reports seems TB was the biggest killer at the time due to a lack of medical interventions ,most places likely had no access to anything but the bare basics of medicine ,
TB , measles,flu and numerous other infections and diseases would have gone through homes like wildfires , there is probably similar number of deaths in isolated communities with lack of medical care at the time ,

Source for this claim? I have seen evidence of the rate of death being far higher than the reset of Canada. I have seen no source saying the rate of deaths is the same as in isolated communities.

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

By reports seems TB was the biggest killer at the time due to a lack of medical interventions ,most places likely had no access to anything but the bare basics of medicine ,
TB , measles,flu and numerous other infections and diseases would have gone through homes like wildfires , there is probably similar number of deaths in isolated communities with lack of medical care at the time ,

Jesus!

It's not about the cause of death its the fact these children were taken from thier families, the children died and were dumped In unmarked graves.

Imagine never knowing what happened to your child after they were taken from you, never knowing if they grew up and had children of thoer own and then hearing this news and now wondering if your child is in one of those unmarked graves.

volchitsa

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

So not two people every year then? Two people over your whole school life, so about 12/13 years?

Pussyhands

Irish people acted like it was the irish priests and nun responsible...maybe it's just scumbags that were in on this...been multiple similar findings.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/newly-discovered-b-c-graves-a-grim-reminder-of-the-heartbreaking-death-toll-of-residential-schools

The result is that many of Canada’s most notorious residential schools sit amid sprawling cemeteries of unmarked children’s graves.

The Battleford Industrial School in Saskatchewan has 72 graves that lay forgotten until rediscovered by archaeology students in the 1970s. In 2001, heavy rains outside High River, Alta., exposed the coffins of 34 children who had died at nearby Dunbow Residential School. In 2019, archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar found the crudely dug graves of as many as 15 children surrounding the former site of Saskatchewan’s Muskowekwan Residential School.

More than 2,800 names are logged on a memorial register maintained by the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. The chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Justice Murray Sinclair, has said the true number of deaths could be as high as 6,000.

One third of children who died at a residential school did not have their names recorded by school administrators. One quarter were marked as deceased without even their gender being noted. Among the 2,800 names on the official memorial register are children known to recorded history only as “Alice,” “Mckay” or “Elsie.”

“It’s staggering to think that families would not have known what happened to a child that was sent off to the residential schools,” Ontario Chief Coroner Andrew McCallum said in 2012 as his office began an inquest into unrecorded residential school deaths.

The deadly reputations of residential schools were well-known to officials at the time. Kuper Island Residential School, located near Chemainus, B.C., saw the deaths of nearly one third of its student population in the years following its opening in 1889. “The Indians are inclined to boycott this school on account of so many deaths,” wrote a school inspector in 1922.

Exacerbating the death rate was the absence of even the most rudimentary medical care. Survivors described classmates becoming increasingly listless with TB until they were quietly removed by authorities.

But probably the most resonant of residential school deaths was the number of children who froze or drowned while attempting to run away. Several dozen children would die this way, with schools routinely making no attempt to find them and failing to report their disappearances for days.

Christy42

Donald Trump wrote: »

You know not every kid that was born in 1900 lived to 120? Stop saying they did





Yeah, I know you didn't say that. But neither did I say what I bolded in your post above. That would work out at 35% of children dying before they hit 21 if we considered age and death to be independent variables. So if we are playing this game then it works both ways. I don't see the point of it.





I'm still looking for supporters to help attack the British and Protestants for murdering and buggering to death the hundreds of bodies in the mass grave pits in the Union workhouse near me. Can we get that sorted out seeing as it happened first and happened here? Or the one in Kilkenny that I linked to earlier.

I'm ignoring the fact of course that there was a famine at the time for story about the 500+ kids over 4 years in the Kilkenny one. I'm judging the facts by todays standards. I'm also not taking into account that the rate of children dying before 21 was still around 15% up to 1920's Ireland. The Protestant archbishops must have been still going around and buggering them to death even as the new State was finding its feet! There can be no other reason. Well, if there was, I plan on sticking my fingers in my ears and just saying "nah nah nah nah". because I don't really care about those people. I'm just delighted they died so I can win internet points in my hatred of Protestant archbishops.



Am I doing it right?

"Your calculations are wrong. 2 dying for any given school year would be 200 over 100 years."

Great so what was the complete and utter nonsense about not knowing if 2 dead of your year of 100 being above or below average then? I take it you did not mean 2 per year then?


Also in this thread was the fact that children in these schools died at a much higher rate than those of the same time (aka not judging it by todays standards). Just because more children died of diseases in the past does not mean that none of them were mistreated and when you find a very large number of them you ask questions.

volchitsa

Donald Trump wrote: »

I wasn't living in Canada. Merely pointing out to the poster that people do not live forever. Some unfortunately die young.


I may start quoting Frank McCourt next! I remember his story about his father not having the money to bring his baby sister to the doctor and she died. The amount of people that died from TB and other preventable diseases in this country in the last century was appalling by today's standards. It was normal for them unfortunately. I think that all my grandparents had siblings that died young. Some multiple siblings. I don't imagine that people definitely not considered as equals over in Canada were getting better treatment in their day-to-day lives than the average Irish person

Infant mortality wasn't equally spread out over childhood though - even when it was very high, it was largely in babyhood. Past toddler age, children didn't die that often, except when there was a famine or an epidemic.

And these children were just dumped without parents being informed - that alone shows there was something very abnormal going on.