Fly me to the Moon - your 3rd travel Megathread - read OP

pc7

Santan wrote: »

Lanzarote is from today moved back down to level 1, which means the last of major restrictions are gone. The nightclubs can now reopen again and bars can now stay open until 2am, an extension of 1 hour not a massive difference for that really but still good for the bars. Still very quiet unfortunately but the iron man triathlon is this weekend with 1000 competitors so that seems to have brought a lot more life to Puerto del Carmen in the last 10 days with the athletes and families arriving, seeing the beaches finally with people again is great, but seeing people just able to go out and about and not have to have masks on is fantastic to see

We’re due out in August and honestly your post has lifted my spirits so much. Feeling worn out with the negativity and gloom today, but you have really made my day, thank you.

Sammy2012

pc7 wrote: »

We’re due out in August and honestly your post has lifted my spirits so much. Feeling worn out with the negativity and gloom today, but you have really made my day, thank you.

Also due to travel in August. Glad to hear all should be fine. We will all be fully vaccinated and hoping for a smooth trip.

Meself

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You dont understand discrimination and its not 'clearly' anything. You are comparing someone doing A (Entering) with someone being denied do B (Exiting for non essential reasons) and claming discrimination.

discrimination is dealt with in law. Theres 9 grounds and theres a clear path to follow showing discrimination. In Irish and EU law. THe soviet nations and in fact a lot of eastern europe had the very rules you are pointing at however none of them were in the EU nor had defined laws on discrimination at the time.

The very very first step if to show that you are being treated differently based on one of the 9 grounds. As you cannot show you are being treated differently by being denied the same action or service as another, you have fallen at the first hurdle.

AGAIN, the fine is for travelling to a port for non essential travel and applies to ALL PERSONS equally. It doesnt say "Irish people only" or "residents only".

To be abundently clear here, a UK citizen that enters Ireland from Northern Ireland and attends Dublin airport for the purpose of a holiday is absolutely subject to being fined. Same with a Spaniard, German or whatever.

Just to check something with you Niner..

I was reading through the legislation -

Part 2
Temporary restrictions – national measures
Restrictions of movement of applicable persons in relation to travel from
place of residence to port or airport
4. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), an applicable person shall not travel to an
airport or port for the purpose of leaving the State without reasonable excuse.

The definition of applicable person is noted as -

“applicable person” means a person whose place of residence is located within
a relevant geographical location;

The definition of 'place of residence' states the following -

“place of residence” means -
(a) in relation to a person who is ordinarily resident in the State -
(i) the home in which the person ordinarily resides, or
(ii) if the person does not have a home, such other premises, if
any, at which he or she is currently residing, whether on a
permanent or temporary basis, or
(b) in relation to a person who is not ordinarily resident in the State,
the premises in the State, if any, at which he or she is currently
residing, whether on a permanent or temporary basis

Take the example of a person travelling down from NI to travel out of Dublin airport for non essential trip.

If they are not resident in the state, then the legislation would not apply, ergo the fine ???

Wh1skeyjack

Wh1skeyjack wrote: »

I've also heard anecdotally that you're more likely to be challenged on return to the country so if you're arriving back prior to the 19th make sure you have some documentation on you.

I don't know where you heard that, but it's rubbish.
There is no barrier to travelling home and no law against it.

pc7

Yeah myself and mrpc7 fully done and smallies under 6 so at least no stress in terms of tests for them. Might see you for a boardsies meet up!

njburke

Just landed a few hours ago in from the Canaries. I went out Monday with an antigen test from gosafe. No issues going through Dublin airport at 4.30am.

I had a PCR test at 8 AM yesterday and by noon I was emailed an EU digital Covid cert. There's very little detail on it other than the QR code,name, DOB and sample time. No passport number, although passport was required for the Test. The QR is a pointer to the web where the test and data is securely stored.

The DCC was accepted without hassle at the Dublin immigration desk. No questions were asked this afternoon as to the purpose of my visit to spain, unlike when I returned to Dublin two weeks ago from a similar trip. I was stopped today by Gardai at customs who asked how long I had been away, they x-rayed my luggage. I guess they were looking for cigarette and booze violations, but I had the legal limit.

Sammy2012

pc7 wrote: »

Yeah myself and mrpc7 fully done and smallies under 6 so at least no stress in terms of tests for them. Might see you for a boardsies meet up!

My oldest will be 8 so we might have to get her a PCR on the way home but know where I have to go for that already...thought we would have to get her one on the way out too but now Portugal have increased their age to 12 so that's fine. We might increase ours by then too...

Wh1skeyjack

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't know where you heard that, but it's rubbish.
There is no barrier to travelling home and no law against it.

So when I return I won't be challenged as to the essentialness of my travel and potentially fined? That's excellent news, thanks for clearing that up.

Wh1skeyjack

Wh1skeyjack wrote: »

So when I return I won't be challenged as to the essentialness of my travel and potentially fined? That's excellent news, thanks for clearing that up.

Nope, you cannot be fined when your on your way home.

Bit cynical

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

That's all irrelevant.

Discrimination is not 'the Irish don't have what the Spanish have'. It's not treating everyone equally within your own jurisdiction. We are. Simple as.

They don't get child benefit. Is that discrimination against the Spanish by the Spanish state?

That was't the point I was making however. I did not mention what the Spanish or other governments are doing. I am purely talking about the Irish government discriminating against Irish residents going abroad. Ireland allows travel by EU citizens into Ireland for whatever reason subject to Covid requirements but does not grant the corresponding right to Irish residents to travel abroad without a good reason and subject to a fine if reason is found to be insufficient.

Bit cynical

njburke wrote: »

Just landed a few hours ago in from the Canaries. I went out Monday with an antigen test from gosafe. No issues going through Dublin airport at 4.30am.

I had a PCR test at 8 AM yesterday and by noon I was emailed an EU digital Covid cert. There's very little detail on it other than the QR code,name, DOB and sample time. No passport number, although passport was required for the Test. The QR is a pointer to the web where the test and data is securely stored.

The DCC was accepted without hassle at the Dublin immigration desk. No questions were asked this afternoon as to the purpose of my visit to spain, unlike when I returned to Dublin two weeks ago from a similar trip. I was stopped today by Gardai at customs who asked how long I had been away, they x-rayed my luggage. I guess they were looking for cigarette and booze violations, but I had the legal limit.

Surprised you got a full EU DCC abroad.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

That was't the point I was making however. I did not mention what the Spanish or other governments are doing. I am purely talking about the Irish government discriminating against Irish residents going abroad. Ireland allows travel by EU citizens into Ireland for whatever reason subject to Covid requirements but does not grant the corresponding right to Irish residents to travel abroad without a good reason and subject to a fine if reason is found to be insufficient.

What you are talking about is that the law may be unconstitutional, which it may be. But not on any discrimination grounds.
Anyone can take a case in Ireland against the legality of a law they believe to be unconstitutional.
It is not a breach of any EU law, as far as I am aware. Freedom of travel for goods and people, does not include holidays.

Bit cynical

bubblypop wrote: »

What you are talking about is that the law may be unconstitutional, which it may be. But not on any discrimination grounds.
Anyone can take a case in Ireland against the legality of a law they believe to be unconstitutional.
It is not a breach of any EU law, as far as I am aware. Freedom of travel for goods and people, does not include holidays.

Thanks. I was not arguing that it was a breach of EU law though the EU appears to have some issue with it nevertheless. I'm guessing that their phrase of being in "dialogue" with the country over it is EU speak for not being happy with it. But like I say that is not the central argument.

Valhallapt

bubblypop wrote: »

What you are talking about is that the law may be unconstitutional, which it may be. But not on any discrimination grounds.
Anyone can take a case in Ireland against the legality of a law they believe to be unconstitutional.
It is not a breach of any EU law, as far as I am aware. Freedom of travel for goods and people, does not include holidays.

Freedom of movement is a fundamental pillar of the EU, holidays are not precluded.

Ireland knows this, they will have to eventually give into the EU and conform, but the EU moves slow, so Ireland will confirm before the EU gets hot and heavy.

Valhallapt

Valhallapt wrote: »

Freedom of movement is a fundamental pillar of the EU, holidays are not precluded.

Ireland knows this, they will have to eventually give into the EU and conform, but the EU moves slow, so Ireland will confirm before the EU gets hot and heavy.

Nope.
Freedom of movement for workers and goods.
There are restrictions based on considerations of public security, public health grounds.

Valhallapt

bubblypop wrote: »

Nope.
Freedom of movement for workers and goods.
There are restrictions based on considerations of public security, public health grounds.

Citizens of EU member states are automatically citizens of the European Union. This means that they can move freely around the countries of the EU, and have the right to live in those other countries.

Yes a country can implement restrictions on inbound travel on public health grounds, but that’s totally unrelated.

Like it or not, we voted for the Maastricht treaty, we’re are EU citizens, and are entitled to express all the rights enshrined with it.

Valhallapt

Valhallapt wrote: »

Citizens of EU member states are automatically citizens of the European Union. This means that they can move freely around the countries of the EU, and have the right to live in those other countries.

Yes a country can implement restrictions on inbound travel on public health grounds, but that’s totally unrelated.

Like it or not, we voted for the Maastricht treaty, we’re are EU citizens, and are entitled to express all the rights enshrined with it.

I'm not sure how restricting movement on public health grounds could be unrelated to the current worldwide pandemic!

Valhallapt

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm not sure how restricting movement on public health grounds could be unrelated to the current worldwide pandemic!

You incorrectly stated there was no “holiday rights” under EU law, I corrected you and said holidays are not precluded, you cannot be refused entry or exit from an EU state in the basis that holidays are not allowed.

You got your facts wrong again, and are muddy the water with health restrictions.

I think you said you were a guard? I wouldn’t like to meet you at Dublin airport, you seem very sure of the law yet have limited knowledge of it.

Valhallapt

Valhallapt wrote: »

You incorrectly stated there was no “holiday rights” under EU law, I corrected you and said holidays are not precluded, you cannot be refused entry or exit from an EU state in the basis that holidays are not allowed.

You got your facts wrong again, and are muddy the water with health restrictions.

I think you said you were a guard? I wouldn’t like to meet you at Dublin airport, you seem very sure of the law yet have limited knowledge of it.

I never said that.
There are no 'holiday rights'
I do know EU law.

njburke

Bit cynical wrote: »

Surprised you got a full EU DCC abroad.

So was I, so I rang to check. It's only for a PCR test so it time limited, I suppose I could fly again tomorrow but would need to return to Dublin by Sunday morning 8.10 AM.

The fact that immigration just checked my name,DOB and time of sample on a PDF from my phone is laughable. The whole point of digital cert is the security, PDFs can be edited or facsimiles easily made.

Spike Milligan had a sketch once where he tried to pay a shopkeeper with a picture of a five pound note.

Meself

Meself wrote: »

Just to check something with you Niner..

I was reading through the legislation -

Part 2
Temporary restrictions – national measures
Restrictions of movement of applicable persons in relation to travel from
place of residence to port or airport
4. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), an applicable person shall not travel to an
airport or port for the purpose of leaving the State without reasonable excuse.

The definition of applicable person is noted as -

“applicable person” means a person whose place of residence is located within
a relevant geographical location;

The definition of 'place of residence' states the following -

“place of residence” means -
(a) in relation to a person who is ordinarily resident in the State -
(i) the home in which the person ordinarily resides, or
(ii) if the person does not have a home, such other premises, if
any, at which he or she is currently residing, whether on a
permanent or temporary basis, or
(b) in relation to a person who is not ordinarily resident in the State,
the premises in the State, if any, at which he or she is currently
residing, whether on a permanent or temporary basis

Take the example of a person travelling down from NI to travel out of Dublin airport for non essential trip.

If they are not resident in the state, then the legislation would not apply, ergo the fine ???

I already pointed out that there is a secondary fine for them.

njburke

njburke wrote: »

Just landed a few hours ago in from the Canaries. I went out Monday with an antigen test from gosafe. No issues going through Dublin airport at 4.30am.

I had a PCR test at 8 AM yesterday and by noon I was emailed an EU digital Covid cert. There's very little detail on it other than the QR code,name, DOB and sample time. No passport number, although passport was required for the Test. The QR is a pointer to the web where the test and data is securely stored.

The DCC was accepted without hassle at the Dublin immigration desk. No questions were asked this afternoon as to the purpose of my visit to spain, unlike when I returned to Dublin two weeks ago from a similar trip. I was stopped today by Gardai at customs who asked how long I had been away, they x-rayed my luggage. I guess they were looking for cigarette and booze violations, but I had the legal limit.

Gardai don't x-ray property. Were Gardai present when customs examined your property you mean?

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

That was't the point I was making however. I did not mention what the Spanish or other governments are doing. I am purely talking about the Irish government discriminating against Irish residents going abroad. Ireland allows travel by EU citizens into Ireland for whatever reason subject to Covid requirements but does not grant the corresponding right to Irish residents to travel abroad without a good reason and subject to a fine if reason is found to be insufficient.

Jesus wept. What can't you get about this? ENTERING is not the same as EXITING. Two different activities.

All persons, Irish or other can freely ENTER

All persons, Irish or other can be fined for traveling to a port for the purpose of non essential travel.

It is not discrimination under the law. As you are comparing two different acts.

njburke

njburke wrote: »

So was I, so I rang to check. It's only for a PCR test so it time limited, I suppose I could fly again tomorrow but would need to return to Dublin by Sunday morning 8.10 AM.

The fact that immigration just checked my name,DOB and time of sample on a PDF from my phone is laughable. The whole point of digital cert is the security, PDFs can be edited or facsimiles easily made.

Spike Milligan had a sketch once where he tried to pay a shopkeeper with a picture of a five pound note.

Would you rather they stopped everyone and performed detailed investigations? People have been caught with fakes.

3 countries have all accepted a photo of my vaccine cert. I certainly won't be complaining about it.

Wh1skeyjack

Wh1skeyjack wrote: »

Just thought I'd post a travel report for those interested. Flew out of Dublin Terminal 2 yesterday to Faro on Aer Lingus. There was no Garda checkpoint on the way to the short term parking, but I did see one at the set down area. I was there for around 13:30. Checked in, went through security - we were the only people in line. There was a kiosk before security where a guard would normally sit but it wasn't manned. At the kiosk was a sign to have your passport and boarding card ready. We were travelling with kids, and had heard anecdotally that the guards had questioned the kids as to where they were off to and why, but this scenario didn't play out thankfully.

Once through it was like a ghost town. There were some shops open but not many - WH Smith, the duty free and the cafe in the corner were open. You could get food and a pint at the cafe. The likes of Dixons, the sunglass shop and the various fashion stores were all closed. The flight to Faro was about a third full so plenty of room. On the other side, our Covid test results were checked but they didn't look at the locator form.

All in all a pretty smooth experience, but there was the worry about having to justify our travel (for which we do have a valid reason thankfully). I've also heard anecdotally that you're more likely to be challenged on return to the country so if you're arriving back prior to the 19th make sure you have some documentation on you.

All your need is your locator and pcr test. Nothing else

njburke

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Gardai don't x-ray property. Were Gardai present when customs examined your property you mean?

Are the uniforms similar? There was a mix of white and blue shirts milling about in the blue channel. We did have three suitcases between two of us and with flights so cheap and cigarettes so dear, I guessed they were looking for cigarettes.

Bit cynical

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm not sure how restricting movement on public health grounds could be unrelated to the current worldwide pandemic!

For me it is not so much that travel between EU countries is being restricted. That is to a certain extent understandable. Rather it is that Ireland is limiting infections into Ireland by threatening a fine for leaving the country without a sufficient excuse.

There's something odd about that. What you would normally expect is that if a country doesn't want an infection to enter we restrict entry of people to the country on the basis that those people may be carriers of the virus. This would also have the effect of deterring Irish residents from leaving for holidays or the like on the basis that they may not be able to get back in due to our entry restrictions, but it would at least be fair in that both Irish residents as well, as residents of other EU states (or indeed residents of any country) would be treated the same way.

Instead, however, we have relatively free access (subject to a negative test which Irish people also have to pass) to Ireland for the residents of other countries whereas Irish citizens have this 2000 fine for going abroad. It is as if we care more about protecting other countries from our people rather than the other way around.

This is why I think it is discriminatory. It is not because it may or may not be Constitutional or that it may or may not violate EU law. I don't care either if it violates one of the "nine grounds of discrimination" that another poster posited. I think the practice is discriminatory because it discriminates. One set of people are being disadvantaged over another without good reason.

njburke

njburke wrote: »

Are the uniforms similar? There was a mix of white and blue shirts milling about in the blue channel. We did have three suitcases between two of us and with flights so cheap and cigarettes so dear, I guessed they were looking for cigarettes.

They wear white. They have 'customs' on them or sometimes wear vests which I think can be over a blue polo shirt (dog unit for example)

Gardai have 'Gardai' on their uniform.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

For me it is not so much that travel between EU countries is being restricted. That is to a certain extent understandable. Rather it is that Ireland is limiting infections into Ireland by threatening a fine for leaving the country without a sufficient excuse.

There's something odd about that. What you would normally expect is that if a country doesn't want an infection to enter we restrict entry of people to the country on the basis that those people may be carriers of the virus. This would also have the effect of deterring Irish residents from leaving for holidays or the like on the basis that they may not be able to get back in due to our entry restrictions, but it would at least be fair in that both Irish residents as well as residents of other EU states (or indeed residents of any country) would be treated the same way.

Instead, however, we have relatively free access (subject to a negative test which Irish people also have to pass) to Ireland for the residents of other countries whereas Irish citizens have this 2000 fine for going abroad. It is as if we care more about protecting other countries from our people rather than the other way around.

This is why I think it is discriminatory. It is not because it may or may not be Constitutional or that it may or may not violate EU law. I don't care either if it violates one of the "nine grounds of discrimination" that another poster posited. I think the practice is discriminatory because it discriminates. One set of people are being disadvantaged over another without good reason.

It doesn't. Not in any way. All persons can enter Ireland and all call leave for essential reasons.

All are equal. It's not discrimination in any way.

It may not make sense, it may seem unfair but it's not discrimination

sy_flembeck

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Gardai have 'Gardai' on their uniform.

They don't, actually