Fly me to the Moon - your 3rd travel Megathread - read OP

ACitizenErased

SusanC10 wrote: »

How do they send a *digital* Cert in the post ?
Surely *digital* means electronically?

It's called the Digital Covid Certificate.
"The DCC will be free and available in both digital and paper formats"

ACitizenErased

pc7 wrote: »

ACE can I ask was he done in work, MVC or a GP if you don't mind?

Work, first week in January.

josip

ACitizenErased wrote: »

My father's a healthcare worker - was informed by email today he'll be receiving his EU digital cert by post in the next 10 days.

The HSE summed up in one sentence.

Bit cynical

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The same rules do apply. There's no fine for entering at all. There's a fine for non essential leaving. Going home (both ways fyi) is an essential reason.

Just wanted to deal with this first point.

Your argument would also apply in a hypothetical country that didn't want its own citizens to travel. For example, in the Soviet Union (and I'm not comparing Ireland to the Soviet Union), it was possible for people from abroad to visit the country but it was very hard for Soviet citizens to leave. You could not leave simply to go on holidays.

Clearly this is discriminating against their own people. Foreigners were relatively free to come and go but locals were heavily restricted.

Yet according to your argument, there is no discrimination since both locals and foreigners were allowed to "go home".

The conclusion from this is that the right to go home is insufficient as an argument against discrimination in travel rights.

ACitizenErased

josip wrote: »

The HSE summed up in one sentence.

The EU Digital Covid Certificate was named by the EU. "The DCC will be free and available in both digital and paper formats" Nothing to do with the HSE.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

Just wanted to deal with this first point.

Your argument would also apply in a hypothetical country that didn't want its own citizens to travel. For example, in the Soviet Union (and I'm not comparing Ireland to the Soviet Union), it was possible for people from abroad to visit the country but it was very hard for Soviet citizens to leave. You could not leave simply to go on holidays.

Clearly this is discriminating against their own people. Foreigners were relatively free to come and go but locals were heavily restricted.

Yet according to your argument, there is no discrimination since both locals and foreigners were allowed to "go home".

The conclusion from this is that the right to go home is insufficient as an argument against discrimination in travel rights.

You dont understand discrimination and its not 'clearly' anything. You are comparing someone doing A (Entering) with someone being denied do B (Exiting for non essential reasons) and claming discrimination.

discrimination is dealt with in law. Theres 9 grounds and theres a clear path to follow showing discrimination. In Irish and EU law. THe soviet nations and in fact a lot of eastern europe had the very rules you are pointing at however none of them were in the EU nor had defined laws on discrimination at the time.

The very very first step if to show that you are being treated differently based on one of the 9 grounds. As you cannot show you are being treated differently by being denied the same action or service as another, you have fallen at the first hurdle.

AGAIN, the fine is for travelling to a port for non essential travel and applies to ALL PERSONS equally. It doesnt say "Irish people only" or "residents only".

To be abundently clear here, a UK citizen that enters Ireland from Northern Ireland and attends Dublin airport for the purpose of a holiday is absolutely subject to being fined. Same with a Spaniard, German or whatever.

josip

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The EU Digital Covid Certificate was named by the EU. "The DCC will be free and available in both digital and paper formats" Nothing to do with the HSE.

I've updated my post to make it clear to anyone who may be struggling to grasp the contradiction.
The Cert starts out in soft format on a computer.
Do you think the QR codes are hand made and then scanned in?

If it's ok to inform someone by email, why can't they email then QR code to them when it's available?
The HSE is infatuated with paper.

Marine Layer

Marine Layer wrote: »

Yes but a number of people did get the courts to release them from mhq as they were fully vaccinated

Again incorrect, no court at any stage has ordered the release of any person in quarantine

josip

ACitizenErased wrote: »

It's called the Digital Covid Certificate.
"The DCC will be free and available in both digital and paper formats"

Nor does it sound like that person will be getting it in both formats, only paper.

josip

josip wrote: »

Nor does it sound like that person will be getting it in both formats, only paper.

THeres people that like using cold hard paper versions. Phones die, battery go flat and so on

My father would be horrified at the thought of arriving to an airport without a printed boarding card and passport

Not a hope will he elect for a digital DCC or PCR

Bit cynical

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

AGAIN, the fine is for travelling to a port for non essential travel and applies to ALL PERSONS equally. It doesnt say "Irish people only" or "residents only".

It does not have to say residents only however. It naturally discriminates against those who are normally resident in Ireland and in favour of those who are normally resident in other EU countries. If I'm, say, a German resident I can enter Ireland, go on holidays and return back to Germany. The same is not true for the Irish resident travelling to Germany. I can go but only if I have a good reason.

The regulation does not have to explicitly state that it is discriminating against Irish residents for it to be, in fact, discriminating in this way.

CruelSummer

Bit cynical wrote: »

I would say it is discriminatory because we fully respect the rights of EU residents (except those of Ireland) to travel freely throughout the zone subject to the entry requirements of those countries due to Covid-19.

If we also fined EU residents for arriving in Ireland without good reason then it would not be discriminatory because the same rules are being applied to non-Irish residents as residents.

Was just about to reply to the post with something similar to this point. As far as I understand it as of from July 1st - Irish citizens of the EU are not being treated as equal to other EU citizens as we are subject to the travel fine for non essential travel.
Open to correction.

dalyboy

O’Leary on news talk giving the gov a good hiding atm. Great to hear reason on the airwaves

CruelSummer

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again incorrect, no court at any stage has ordered the release of any person in quarantine

But that’s because the Government wouldn’t allow the cases proceed to court & released the people to get them to drop the case as I understand?

mmclo

faceman wrote: »

It’s a valid argument but nothing will come out of it. For quite a long period Spain discriminated against their own people when it came to travel. Citizens couldn’t travel between regions but EU citizens could fly to any part of Spain. The EU raised it with the Spanish government but nothing came out of it. No penalties, no court cases no fine.

The Irish government can pretty much do what they want regardless of what the EU says.

The EU can take infringement proceedings but this is usually after months of discussion (often behind the scenes) and can take years and Governments know it. Despite that the normal diplomatic horse trading means don't piss off the Commission other member states unnecessarily.

Bit cynical

CruelSummer wrote: »

Was just about to reply to the post with something similar to this point. As far as I understand it as of from July 1st - Irish citizens of the EU are not being treated as equal to other EU citizens as we a subject to the travel fine for non essential travel.
Open to correction.

My feeling is that our non-recognition of the DCC of other EU countries is to avoid accusations of discrimination from the EU since recognition of the DCC while at the same time not issuing one to our own citizens and residents could be seen as discriminatory.

Bit cynical

SusanC10 wrote: »

How do they send a *digital* Cert in the post ?
Surely *digital* means electronically?

I think if you are fully vaccinated a physical cert makes a certain amount of sense. Possibly it could have a QR code or a near field communication chip embedded. Not everyone has or wants a smart phone.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again incorrect, no court at any stage has ordered the release of any person in quarantine

A court ordered an inquiry into the detention of 2 people in April prior to the State copping on that quarantine for vaccinated people made a mockery of vaccines

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-fully-vaccinated-people-released-from-hotel-quarantine-after-legal-challenge-1109689.html

faceman

One of the Spanish TV news show did a segment on Ireland being the only country in the EU not to adopt the travel cert. Probably the first time Ive seen Ireland feature on the news here.

ronano

I've a flight from England to Ireland on 23rd July and have phizer x 2 jabs. I am returning to the uk on 27th July. As it stands now, will i need to quarantine and pcr test on entry to Ireland?

Valhallapt

faceman wrote: »

One of the Spanish TV news show did a segment on Ireland being the only country in the EU not to adopt the travel cert. Probably the first time Ive seen Ireland feature on the news here.

Wait for the “it’s the same everywhere” brigade to dismiss this. Ireland is a complete outlier.

CruelSummer

faceman wrote: »

One of the Spanish TV news show did a segment on Ireland being the only country in the EU not to adopt the travel cert. Probably the first time Ive seen Ireland feature on the news here.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/variant-scariant-narrative-from-nphet-will-be-shown-to-be-bogus-oleary-1220026?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1625243614

This does not make for good reading. It’s like we’re actively trying to destroy our international reputation:

“ "Ireland is perfectly free to delay the delivery of the COVID certificate to our citizens - what it's not free to do though is to prevent European citizens who are fully vaccinated, travelling with the COVID certificate, arriving in Ireland.

"Yesterday we had a whole slew of cases at Dublin Airport where fully vaccinated Belgium, Italian and German arrived up with their QR code and their digital COVID cert only to be threatened with mandatory hotel quarantine by the border force who didn't know what the QR code was.

"We had chaos at the airport yesterday - and chaos being visited on fully vaccinated EU visitors, who have a legal entitlement to come to Ireland because they're fully vaccinated, pose no threat to public health.”

TefalBrain

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/variant-scariant-narrative-from-nphet-will-be-shown-to-be-bogus-oleary-1220026?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1625243614

This does not make for good reading. It’s like we’re actively trying to destroy our international reputation:

“ "Ireland is perfectly free to delay the delivery of the COVID certificate to our citizens - what it's not free to do though is to prevent European citizens who are fully vaccinated, travelling with the COVID certificate, arriving in Ireland.

"Yesterday we had a whole slew of cases at Dublin Airport where fully vaccinated Belgium, Italian and German arrived up with their QR code and their digital COVID cert only to be threatened with mandatory hotel quarantine by the border force who didn't know what the QR code was.

"We had chaos at the airport yesterday - and chaos being visited on fully vaccinated EU visitors, who have a legal entitlement to come to Ireland because they're fully vaccinated, pose no threat to public health.”

Absolutely pathetic and embarrassing. Our government is a sham and completely inept.

Santan

Lanzarote is from today moved back down to level 1, which means the last of major restrictions are gone. The nightclubs can now reopen again and bars can now stay open until 2am, an extension of 1 hour not a massive difference for that really but still good for the bars. Still very quiet unfortunately but the iron man triathlon is this weekend with 1000 competitors so that seems to have brought a lot more life to Puerto del Carmen in the last 10 days with the athletes and families arriving, seeing the beaches finally with people again is great, but seeing people just able to go out and about and not have to have masks on is fantastic to see

Tazz T

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/variant-scariant-narrative-from-nphet-will-be-shown-to-be-bogus-oleary-1220026?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1625243614

This does not make for good reading. It’s like we’re actively trying to destroy our international reputation:

“ "Ireland is perfectly free to delay the delivery of the COVID certificate to our citizens - what it's not free to do though is to prevent European citizens who are fully vaccinated, travelling with the COVID certificate, arriving in Ireland.

"Yesterday we had a whole slew of cases at Dublin Airport where fully vaccinated Belgium, Italian and German arrived up with their QR code and their digital COVID cert only to be threatened with mandatory hotel quarantine by the border force who didn't know what the QR code was.

"We had chaos at the airport yesterday - and chaos being visited on fully vaccinated EU visitors, who have a legal entitlement to come to Ireland because they're fully vaccinated, pose no threat to public health.”

And a huge fall in hospital cases today. There are just 26 in hospital with 2 in ICU. How many cases does it actually need to fall to before we decide that maybe the economic damage outweighs the actual risk to life?

Marcusm

Marine Layer wrote: »

A court ordered an inquiry into the detention of 2 people in April prior to the State copping on that quarantine for vaccinated people made a mockery of vaccines

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-fully-vaccinated-people-released-from-hotel-quarantine-after-legal-challenge-1109689.html

In Nay, the High Court ordered an inquiry into the detention of a fisherman. Sorry Niner, you may strictly be right that no order of release (such as habeus corpus), has been granted, the effect of the other orders has been to compel the release of the persons detained. In the fisherman’s case, unlike that of the vaccinated individuals, it was as a result of a breach of the law.

Marcusm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You dont understand discrimination and its not 'clearly' anything. You are comparing someone doing A (Entering) with someone being denied do B (Exiting for non essential reasons) and claming discrimination.

discrimination is dealt with in law. Theres 9 grounds and theres a clear path to follow showing discrimination. In Irish and EU law. THe soviet nations and in fact a lot of eastern europe had the very rules you are pointing at however none of them were in the EU nor had defined laws on discrimination at the time.

The very very first step if to show that you are being treated differently based on one of the 9 grounds. As you cannot show you are being treated differently by being denied the same action or service as another, you have fallen at the first hurdle.

AGAIN, the fine is for travelling to a port for non essential travel and applies to ALL PERSONS equally. It doesnt say "Irish people only" or "residents only".

To be abundently clear here, a UK citizen that enters Ireland from Northern Ireland and attends Dublin airport for the purpose of a holiday is absolutely subject to being fined. Same with a Spaniard, German or whatever.

I think the travel fine only applies to “applicable persons” being
“applicable person” means a person whose place of residence is located within a relevant geographical location;

I don’t think the discrimination point hangs on this anyway. The 9 grounds are a bit of a red herring in this case too. It’s more about whether the restrictions on a Union’s citizens fundamental freedom of movement are proportionate and free from arbitrary restriction. My suspicion is that a court would find for those restricted but there will be no compensation.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

It does not have to say residents only however. It naturally discriminates against those who are normally resident in Ireland and in favour of those who are normally resident in other EU countries. If I'm, say, a German resident I can enter Ireland, go on holidays and return back to Germany. The same is not true for the Irish resident travelling to Germany. I can go but only if I have a good reason.

The regulation does not have to explicitly state that it is discriminating against Irish residents for it to be, in fact, discriminating in this way.

That's all irrelevant.

Discrimination is not 'the Irish don't have what the Spanish have'. It's not treating everyone equally within your own jurisdiction. We are. Simple as.

They don't get child benefit. Is that discrimination against the Spanish by the Spanish state?

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

I think the travel fine only applies to “applicable persons” being
“applicable person” means a person whose place of residence is located within a relevant geographical location;

I don’t think the discrimination point hangs on this anyway. The 9 grounds are a bit of a red herring in this case too. It’s more about whether the restrictions on a Union’s citizens fundamental freedom of movement are proportionate and free from arbitrary restriction. My suspicion is that a court would find for those restricted but there will be no compensation.

That's not discrimination though. That's a separate matter that we discussed to death already.

There's more than one fine. Thats just the A fine. There's B for non citizens.

And I'm well aware of the reality in actually enforcing it but again, separate.

Wh1skeyjack

Just thought I'd post a travel report for those interested. Flew out of Dublin Terminal 2 yesterday to Faro on Aer Lingus. There was no Garda checkpoint on the way to the short term parking, but I did see one at the set down area. I was there for around 13:30. Checked in, went through security - we were the only people in line. There was a kiosk before security where a guard would normally sit but it wasn't manned. At the kiosk was a sign to have your passport and boarding card ready. We were travelling with kids, and had heard anecdotally that the guards had questioned the kids as to where they were off to and why, but this scenario didn't play out thankfully.

Once through it was like a ghost town. There were some shops open but not many - WH Smith, the duty free and the cafe in the corner were open. You could get food and a pint at the cafe. The likes of Dixons, the sunglass shop and the various fashion stores were all closed. The flight to Faro was about a third full so plenty of room. On the other side, our Covid test results were checked but they didn't look at the locator form.

All in all a pretty smooth experience, but there was the worry about having to justify our travel (for which we do have a valid reason thankfully). I've also heard anecdotally that you're more likely to be challenged on return to the country so if you're arriving back prior to the 19th make sure you have some documentation on you.