Gender Pronouns v God, lawsuit on religious freedom - Admin Warning in the OP

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

but we don't even know of a single kid at that school who is using blockers - heck, strictly speaking we don't know how many kids if any are gender fluid/transitioning.

The Travistock institute was operating here in crumlim children's hospital until recently when the HSE terminated the contract.

I believe it's only a handful ,less than 15 applied for gender recognition Certs over the past 3 + years

Shield

seamus wrote: »

if your friend asks to be called "they", then you do that

Just a few questions on that, if I may?

What if your friend asks for one set of pronouns one day, and another set of pronouns the next day, a la Eddie Izzard when they was in 'boy mode' one day and 'girl mode' the next? I believe it's referred to as "gender-fluid". Would there be a limit on the amount of times you'd be willing to accommodate a switch back and forth?

Also, if your friend asked you to call them the recently-invented pronouns like zey, hir, xem, and so on, you would be happy with that?

Thanks.

Shield

seamus wrote: »

Listing off a pile of statistically small side effects can be done for any medication to "prove" that they're unsafe.

This ain't it, seamus. There's enough doubt out there over use of puberty-blockers on children to remove it as an option. We're talking about experimenting on children here, and that gets a resounding no from me.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

Maybe in different cases. That doesn't seem to be a locus in this case though, the teachers objections are mainly about the policy condoning a students preferred pronouns. I think we could get off on a whole other tangent about blockers and their misuse, and it would be a good talk, but we don't even know of a single kid at that school who is using blockers - heck, strictly speaking we don't know how many kids if any are gender fluid/transitioning.

I'd agree, this teacher mostly seems like a bit of an ass

Overheal

Shield wrote: »

Just a few questions on that, if I may?

What if your friend asks for one set of pronouns one day, and another set of pronouns the next day, a la Eddie Izzard when they was in 'boy mode' one day and 'girl mode' the next? I believe it's referred to as "gender-fluid". Would there be a limit on the amount of times you'd be willing to accommodate a switch back and forth?

Also, if your friend asked you to call them the recently-invented pronouns like zey, hir, xem, and so on, you would be happy with that?

Thanks.

I know you asked Seamus but, I have an Irish friend who was gender fluid like this, with 2 different names, while they transitioned ultimately I think to the latter. I wouldn't have told them 'look you can either be padraic or you can be paula,' I'd kinda be an asshole wouldn't I. Names obv. made up to protect their identity.

if your friend asked you to call them the recently-invented pronouns like zey, hir, xem, and so on, you would be happy with that?

I'd have some things to say about them, because they make little intuitive sense and require explanation. With respect to the teachers objection though it seems to be about more clearly, 'calling boys girls' and vice versa, not students trolling him with zany pronouns like gorp/zorp/bley/fir/etc

Kermit.de.frog

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

This is difficult. He does have a right to free speech and his beliefs but the people he is interacting with have a right to be respected in their beliefs

Do they? When their beliefs are that if you have a penis it doesn't matter...it's some sort of mistake, out with Biological facts and in with emotions?

This is debasement of society far worse than religion has ever done. Like religion it's fundamentally anti fact, anti science, anti truth.

This stuff is dangerous and children should be no where near it.

Where is all this brainless rubbish going to stop?

It's this today, what will it be tomorrow?

It's time say 'enough'.

Yellow_Fern

An issue that no one talks about in Ireland is where is the distinction between sex and gender lies and how this is dealt with in Irish legislation. I was always told that gender is the social aspect and sex is biological but the Irish gender recognition act 2015 uses the terms sex and gender interchangeable. Despite the name Irish gender recognition act, the act changes sex, not gender. The act doesn't define gender or sex. The fact that our lawmakers can be so inconsistent and vague about these terms is truly extraordinary. This act has also had foreseeable consequences, like people with penises with a history of raping women being put in Irsh women's prisons as they are now legally female.

Overheal

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do they? When their beliefs are that if you have a penis it doesn't matter...it's some sort of mistake, out with Biological facts and in with emotions?

This is debasement of society far worse than religion has ever done. Like religion it's fundamentally anti fact, anti science, anti truth.

This stuff is dangerous and children should be no where near it.

Where is all this brainless rubbish going to stop?

It's this today, what will it be tomorrow?

It's time say 'enough'.

When you boil it down someone's gender identity is not really at all removed from an expression of their personal spirituality, and as a result, the same protections afforded to the teacher and his religious liberty equally applies to students, even if the student believes in things we might not personally believe or "know" to be true*. Really my only take on it all right now is that gender identity is a concept that does not mesh very well with the scientific method (itself, arguably, a type of logical spirituality), so it gets a lot of hay made of it.

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cebFWOlx848

(Veritasium - great philosophy channel)

Kermit.de.frog

Overheal wrote: »

When you boil it down someone's gender identity is not really at all removed from an expression of their personal spirituality, and as a result, the same protections afforded to the teacher and his religious liberty equally applies to students, even if the student believes in things we might not personally believe or "know" to be true*. Really my only take on it all right now is that gender identity is a concept that does not mesh very well with the scientific method (itself, arguably, a type of logical spirituality), so it gets a lot of hay made of it.

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cebFWOlx848

(Veritasium - great philosophy channel)

No, I just don't agree. There is scientific and biological fact and neither should be subject to someone's feelings for any reason.

If a flat earther tries to tell you the world is flat it's not right to have respect for that person's belief to avoid offending them. It needs to be challenged.

grassylawn

I think it is misleading to equate the use of puberty blockers with experimenting on children, even though I disagree with their use, and my reading of the literature supports the notion that more research is needed to know the long-term effects. There are probably a few cases where some doctor is hungry for publications and that genuinely affects their decision to prescribe them. However in the majority of cases I believe they use them because they have been shown to decrease suicidality and harmful behaviours.

I see it as similar to the use of some psychiatric drugs such as lithium. There are common major side effects such as hypothyroidism. They still use it though because the side effects are viewed as less damaging than the condition they are treating.

So I think the use of them is a reasonable choice, but I don't think it is the right one. I think there are major questions about their potential for harm. There appears to be a much lower incidence of people growing out of gender dysmorphia when they are used. But then that is based on the optimistic viewpoint that "they don't really need them" and not the pessimistic viewpoint that "they are a suicide risk".

41% of trans in a study reported attempting suicide. That figure does not include those who succeeded. So perhaps I view puberty blockers as bad because I just think everything will be grand and I do not like the reality that people are so unhappy in their bodies that they try to kill themselves.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27380151/

Gatling

grassylawn wrote: »

I think it is misleading to equate the use of puberty blockers with experimenting on children, even though I disagree with their use,

But it not it's misleading, it's misleading to claim they are life saving drugs equivalent to life saving chemotherapy or similar ,
Suiscide is high amongst the LGBT community as a whole ,there has been numerous reports of people killing themselves before , during and post full gender reassignment , which suggests mental health is a big issue here (not allowed to be discussed)?,
In these clinics they are coaching vunrable children how to ask and get puberty blockers.
This is wrong

grassylawn

Gatling wrote: »

But it not it's misleading, it's misleading to claim they are life saving drugs equivalent to life saving chemotherapy or similar

The research shows they reduce suicidality.

Suiscide is high amongst the LGBT community as a whole ,there has been numerous reports of people killing themselves before , during and post full gender reassignment

About two fifths of adult trans reported being suicide survivors. That isn't high. That is horrific.

Puberty blockers are a different thing to gender reassignment surgery.

, which suggests mental health is a big issue here (not allowed to be discussed)?,

I believe the mod warning in the OP should rule that discussion out yes.

In these clinics they are coaching vunrable children how to ask and get puberty blockers.
This is wrong

Don't know what clinics you are talking about. Don't see how you would have inside knowledge. Pushing children into looking for puberty blockers is clearly wrong if that is in fact what is happening. However I prefer to think that you have bought into some bonkers trans conspiracy theory than are reporting fact here. One way or another it doesn't equate to experimentation.

Overheal

grassylawn wrote: »

I think it is misleading to equate the use of puberty blockers with experimenting on children, even though I disagree with their use, and my reading of the literature supports the notion that more research is needed to know the long-term effects. There are probably a few cases where some doctor is hungry for publications and that genuinely affects their decision to prescribe them. However in the majority of cases I believe they use them because they have been shown to decrease suicidality and harmful behaviours.

I see it as similar to the use of some psychiatric drugs such as lithium. There are common major side effects such as hypothyroidism. They still use it though because the side effects are viewed as less damaging than the condition they are treating.

So I think the use of them is a reasonable choice, but I don't think it is the right one. I think there are major questions about their potential for harm. There appears to be a much lower incidence of people growing out of gender dysmorphia when they are used. But then that is based on the optimistic viewpoint that "they don't really need them" and not the pessimistic viewpoint that "they are a suicide risk".

41% of trans in a study reported attempting suicide. That figure does not include those who succeeded. So perhaps I view puberty blockers as bad because I just think everything will be grand and I do not like the reality that people are so unhappy in their bodies that they try to kill themselves.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27380151/

That article is paywalled (I tried using my University credentials - we do not have a student licensing agreement with APA. Got anything from Springer?) and the abstract offers no contextualization for the suicide attempt rate - ie. was this before or after they considered gender transition, was this with or without the factor of clinical or chemical therapies, etc. etc. etc. - I would need to know a lot more about that figure before I leap to the conclusion that means allowing people who are trans to be trans results in increased suicides, which if I'm not mistaken, appears to be your aspersion?

Gatling wrote: »

But it not it's misleading, it's misleading to claim they are life saving drugs equivalent to life saving chemotherapy or similar ,
Suiscide is high amongst the LGBT community as a whole ,there has been numerous reports of people killing themselves before , during and post full gender reassignment , which suggests mental health is a big issue here (not allowed to be discussed)?,
In these clinics they are coaching vunrable children how to ask and get puberty blockers.
This is wrong

Feels like there needs to be a lot more context for this as well.

I agree, IMHO stigmatization makes their mental health much harder to navigate even with professional help, and because there simply aren't as many examples in the field of study, transgender issues and treatments may be more unproven, vs. a treatment for depression where you have n=millions of diagnosed patients that science has gotten in a room with in some form, and maybe only n=thousands of transgender at this point.

grassylawn

Overheal wrote: »

That article is paywalled (I tried using my University credentials - we do not have a student licensing agreement with APA. Got anything from Springer?) and the abstract offers no contextualization for the suicide attempt rate - ie. was this before or after they considered gender transition, was this with or without the factor of clinical or chemical therapies, etc. etc. etc. - I would need to know a lot more about that figure before I leap to the conclusion that means allowing people who are trans to be trans results in increased suicides, which if I'm not mistaken, appears to be your aspersion?



Feels like there needs to be a lot more context for this as well.

Very much mistaken. Reread my post perhaps.

I often find people hopping off me for things they imagine I said but didn't. It is weird.

There is loads of stuff to be found about suicidality of trans people. It's the reason for the medication that you are defending...

Overheal

grassylawn wrote: »

Very much mistaken. Reread my post perhaps.

I often find people hopping off me for things they imagine I said but didn't. It is weird.

There is loads of stuff to be found about suicidality of trans people. It's the reason for the medication that you are defending...

Well, in any case, there is not enough context to draw conclusions from that suicide rate figure.

I never said anything in defense of the medication? Don't hop off me now! :pac: I feel myself to be entirely neutral on it, I don't have enough information to make an informed stance for/against it. Damnit Jim, I'm an engineer, not a doctor.

Gatling

grassylawn wrote: »

There is loads of stuff to be found about suicidality of trans people. It's the reason for the medication that you are defending...

And most of it comes from pro trans charities who make the claims in the first place ,who when they claim they represent more people the more funds they have access to ,
I've seen reports from a survey of the LGBT community of over 1000 participants trans people were representative 1 or 2 % ,
We know only a handful of trans people have gone through the gender recognition Cert process ,we were led to believe there was thousands demanding to change their gender identity ,we've had less than 50 in several years ,

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

Feels like there needs to be a lot more context for this as well.

This is what came out of the Travistock institute gender clinic in the UK , children as young as ten were given prescriptions for puberty blockers despite not being able to consent to the treatment or having the long term effects explained of the Drugs would have on their bodies, from fertility ,bone diseases ,and increased risk of cancers ,
They are happy to tell the general public there is no long term effects of the drugs , but yet we've seen no studies to prove otherwise

grassylawn

Gatling wrote: »

And most of it comes from pro trans charities who make the claims in the first place ,who when they claim they represent more people the more funds they have access to ,
I've seen reports from a survey of the LGBT community of over 1000 participants trans people were representative 1 or 2 % ,
We know only a handful of trans people have gone through the gender recognition Cert process ,we were led to believe there was thousands demanding to change their gender identity ,we've had less than 50 in several years ,

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=suicide+trans&btnG=

Loads of peer reviewed literature about trans suicides.

In the 1990s Saddam Hussein developed his love gun that turned British soldiers into homosexuals and therefore ineffective fighters. However Big Dave was too butch to be affected so he kicked him in the bollocks and saved the day.

jimmycrackcorm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I try and be open minded and I gave it a go.

I got as far as “I serve god first”

IF he serves God first, then let God pay his salary.

Gatling

grassylawn wrote: »

In the 1990s Saddam Hussein developed his love gun that turned British soldiers into homosexuals and therefore ineffective fighters. However Big Dave was too butch to be affected so he kicked him in the bollocks and saved the day.

Ah we can all go home so.

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

This is what came out of the Travistock institute gender clinic in the UK , children as young as ten were given prescriptions for puberty blockers despite not being able to consent to the treatment or having the long term effects explained of the Drugs would have on their bodies, from fertility ,bone diseases ,and increased risk of cancers ,
They are happy to tell the general public there is no long term effects of the drugs , but yet we've seen no studies to prove otherwise

On board with you there, if there are set ethics in place, and this new therapy comes along and tries to experiment outside of that constraint, then it is very simple to argue that research is unethical. Definitely something you want entire panels of research to debate, some for, some against, some curious, some neutral, etc. not just one institute with their unique angle on it.

Donald Trump

Gentlemanne wrote: »

For me, I would always trust medical and psychological professionals who have the expertise to determine whether puberty blockers for the treatment of a patient may be necessary.

Genuine question. What would be a medical or physiological reason for these puberty blockers in children that are of puberty age?
Is there a medical test that they can do, and then based on that result determine that the child needs those things?


Psychological I understand.

Yellow_Fern

grassylawn wrote: »

The research shows they reduce suicidality.

Not really the case. Also the cohort that has high suicide attempt rate is a much smaller cohort than uses puberty blockers

Yellow_Fern

Donald Trump wrote: »

Genuine question. What would be a medical or physiological reason for these puberty blockers in children that are of puberty age?
Is there a medical test that they can do, and then based on that result determine that the child needs those things?


Psychological I understand.

None sadly.

_Godot_

There would be if the child started puberty too early, like say at the age of 6, and so delaying early puberty in girls prevents early menopause.

Edit: Sorry, I misread the question.

Rodin

The world is regressing to the dark ages with pitchfork (tweeting) wielding mob rule.

To use a metaphor, we are being told that no matter what science says, that the earth is flat.
If we protest this we are 'flat-tist' and we must be punished, fired from our jobs, 'cancelled.'

It's regressive we are becoming. Not progressive.

Rodin

Shield wrote: »

Just a few questions on that, if I may?

What if your friend asks for one set of pronouns one day, and another set of pronouns the next day, a la Eddie Izzard when they was in 'boy mode' one day and 'girl mode' the next? I believe it's referred to as "gender-fluid". Would there be a limit on the amount of times you'd be willing to accommodate a switch back and forth?

Also, if your friend asked you to call them the recently-invented pronouns like zey, hir, xem, and so on, you would be happy with that?

Thanks.

I wouldn't be friends with such a person...

y0ssar1an22

can i decide my pronoun is 'go **** yourself'? and insist i am referred to as such.

if that is the case, is boards guilty of censoring my chosen pronoun?

i just wanna get the rules correct here.

Overheal

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

can i decide my pronoun is 'go **** yourself'? and insist i am referred to as such.

if that is the case, is boards guilty of censoring my chosen pronoun?

i just wanna get the rules correct here.

I can't imagine how you would convince the judge you weren't taking the piss.

Overheal

Rodin wrote: »

I wouldn't be friends with such a person...

If someone who was already your friend, for years etc. and they started to transition like this you'd just cut them out of your life? Mutual friends?