Is classism/snobbery alive in Ireland?

Tony EH

iffandonlyif wrote: »

‘...treatment.’

So, no, it does not ‘encapsulate’ my point.

Hard to take you seriously.

tonycascarino

Fils wrote: »

There is a lot of fur coat around also. People with their pcp suv, not a pot to p1ss in.

Unbelievable amount of them around I'd say. The biggest snobs in this country are the ones who are living on large amounts of borrowed money and who think they are now important as a result.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Classism, not really. Certainly not in the way I’ve encountered it in England anyway.

What we have tends to be more just plain snobbery. It’s about things like income, house size, location, car and sometimes educational achievement / job type etc and definitely accent.

In England I found there were certain things that were just your class based on birth. So if you’re upper class you’re upper class. It’s nothing to do with your finances. You could be a penniless, but you’ll still be cow towed to as The Honourable Author, or some similarly nonsensical inherited title that’s never used.

I just found a having worked with a bunch of old Etonians and so on, that there was an impenetrable nature to it and you’ll be fine until it’s made fairly clear you’re NOT one of them. I had it happen on a few nights out. Perfectly polite and friendly, but …

If you’re working class, you can often still be (or consider yourself) to be working class despite an Oxford education and a fantastic house. I know a few people who’d claim to be working class, yet have a a parent with a PhD and another who’s a teacher, but somehow they’re still connecting themselves to a family history of working class.

The English who consider themselves middle class are more socially mobile and similar to our level of snobbery.

My view of Irish social classes is that it’s very much something you can move up and down.

There’s plenty of snobbery and some of it can be downright nasty, but it’s not about class by birthright.

Tilden Katz

Walking_Wolf wrote: »

Is classism/snobbery alive and well in Ireland? I rented a place in a well off part of Dublin for a few years. I'm a plumber by trade and had my Hiace van parked outside. One of my neighbours, I think she and her husband were retired civil servants, she used to complain about me bringing down the tone of the place with the van. She and her husband would have been in their sixties and on first meeting them you would think they were quite timid, but they were obnoxious snobs. They were both originally from the country though, I have to say I've never met a real dub who was a snob. Does anyone have similar stories or do you think in general that classism or snobbery still exists in Ireland?

100%. I have an aunt who is incredibly snobby. I’ll never forget her utter disgust at finding out that her two daughters were attending the 21st birthday of a girl who - shock, horror! - was from one of the council estates in our hometown. My cousins, her daughters, left a family do early to attend the party. That lead to people at the do just asking general curiosity questions about the birthday girl. I’ll never forget my aunt’s disgust when I said “Oh yeah, she’s one of the Kellys from <insert council estate name here>”. My aunt, in a flustered, panicked manner, said “No she isn’t, no she’s NOT, she’s from <insert some townland name here>!” only for me to be backed up by a few other people. My aunt was openly shocked that her daughters were friends with somebody from a council estate and embarrassed that family members knew about it. I lost a lot of respect for her in that moment. And not that it should matter but our own family background is hardly la-dee-da. But she had come up in the world and lived in a nice house and she was a nurse and her husband a civil engineering technician (though she told people that he was a civil engineer) and her daughters having a friend from a council estate simply would not do. Only befriend children with professional, white collar parents plz.

I believe that my aunt is replicated through out the land.

Justin Credible Darts

what about a working class man with an average job who thinks he is better than the unemployed guy door who has a criminal record.

would that constitute snobbery ?

or would he be damn right ?

Tilden Katz

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

what about a working class man with an average job who thinks he is better than the unemployed guy door who has a criminal record.

would that constitute snobbery ?

or would he be damn right ?

Well, I don’t know if he would be damn right. What does the criminal record consist of? I know people who have criminal records that I do not look down on, genuinely. Why is he unemployed? The OP gave a solid example. You’ve given a caricature.

There are some convicted criminals I’d judge and have no time for. It depends on the crime and the person. Since you have provided no other details about Unemployed Criminal Record Man, I can’t say if he’d be in that category.

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

You would think that after we went through the various booms and busts and as Ireland becomes more of a meritocracy that people would be 'over' the old petty snobbishness. The GAA thriving in South Dublin is for me the new classless vision I would want for Ireland.

Ah but, South Dublin hasn't been the same same since Kingstown's name was changed back to Dun Laoghaire.

Cal4567

Purple is a Fruit wrote: »

Nowhere near as bad as England but people here do feel they have to put someone else's address on job applications and the like.

I use to think that but then went to work there and found out it was worse still at home. Very much a small town mentality. Comfortable for some to just pass off UK traditions such as the royal family as part of a historical trend. That small town mentality where every one knows everyone else's business is a part of it.

Quite a laugh when everyone thinks everyone else has more money than them.

On the down side, we seem to be getting worse at it.

shesty

Some of the worst snobs I have met are country people who think they have it made because they live in South Dublin.Never ceases to amaze me.

Aglomerado

Some of the worst snobs I have met are unemployed/ unemployable people. I know one who hasn't worked for years due to some sort of anxiety who still harbours a dream of writing a book and making millions on it, while sneering at my steady, 'boring ' job.

No book is being written and life passes him by as he spends his days on an Xbox in a dingy flat. While my boring job provides me with a house, car and plenty of holidays and concerts (hopefully again soon).

Conversely I know a family who owned a large business in Dublin and are worth a few million, they are the most welcoming, non-judgemental folk I have ever met.

lisasimpson

Think some of the most recent snobbery comes from those with new money . They may have gotten lucky in the last20 yrs and are v show offy about it. As the saying goes money talks wealth whispers
I hate when people ask o whats x doing now and say o hes a farmer, builder, plumber and they respond is that all. Only for these jobs where do yourfood house etc come from. Often are the 1st to complain how hard it is to get a tradesman when they need something fixed and the slowest to pay these workmen

Aglomerado

beerguts wrote: »

I don't think you will find any nation 9n earth where there isn't classism or snobbery. Whether you are old money in new england USA or a Parisian looking down on French men from the provinces it's part and parcel of life.
I for one would never associate with the common muck in the next parish over from me as most of the farmers have Zetors and I am a Massey ferguson man.

Massey is classy but Zetor is better

Bassfish

I moved to a new development in a traditionally well off part of Cork (occupied by the haves and the have yachts) a few years ago. We bought the house before the economy really took off and prices started going mad so the house was surprisingly reasonable.
In the past few years I've gotten to know all sorts of people here. I'm on first name terms with serious 'old money' people in enormous houses with two boats, properties in several countries etc etc etc and have never once felt looked down on or condecended to. Most of these people were born rich and know nothing different so don't feel they have to prove themselves to anyone. They'd chat to a brickie in the local pub as quick as they'd chat to a bank owner.
The only snobs I've met here are the people in the same semi-detached houses as us who now feel superior to most of humanity because of their new address. These are people in very middle of the road jobs like ourselves, professionals but hardly elite; teachers, retail managers etc.
My neighbour enjoys asking how my 11 year old Focus is running while polishing his PCP Audi. Grand says I, 'bought and paid for and never gives me any trouble'. The same fella gets straight on the the WhatsApp group for the park if he sees a van driving up the road in case it's fellas 'casing places to rob'. He wouldn't know one end of a screwdriver from the other but regards tradesmen as a lower form of life.
Another neighbour was aghast that we're not even considering sending our eldest to one of the private schools in the city (an hour's bus ride every morning and evening not to mention €8k a year in fees) when there's a very good secondary school a five minute walk from our house. The same lady is a mid level administrator.
The worst snobs are those who know damn well they'll never be part of the upper echelons of society but think they'll get closer to the top by putting everyone else down.

Wanderer78

Aglomerado wrote:

Some of the worst snobs I have met are unemployed/ unemployable people. I know one who hasn't worked for years due to some sort of anxiety who still harbours a dream of writing a book and making millions on it, while sneering at my steady, 'boring ' job.

Possible autism there, elements of narcissism and grandiose delusions, some what common amongst many disorders, many experience long term unemployment

Aglomerado

Bassfish wrote: »

The worst snobs are those who know damn well they'll never be part of the upper echelons of society but think they'll get closer to the top by putting everyone else down.

Very well put! Could not agree more!

Aglomerado

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Possible autism there, elements of narcissism and grandiose delusions, some what common amongst many disorders, many experience long term unemployment

Definitely narcissism, was in a group chat with him last night and HE kept dropping off, and he blamed MY phone!

He is NEVER in the wrong, apparently.

Wanderer78

Aglomerado wrote:

Definitely narcissism, was in a group chat with him last night and HE kept dropping off, and he blamed my phone!

Sounds very narcissistic alright, tis common with many disorders, including my own, autism. many are deeply unaware of their issues, and need professional help, but due to their lack of insight, simply don't get it, and the fact, our health system is atrocious

Aglomerado

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sounds very narcissistic alright, tis common with many disorders, including my own, autism. many are deeply unaware of their issues, and need professional help, but due to their lack of insight, simply don't get it, and the fact, our health system is atrocious

It is a terrible shame for someone who is intelligent and can even be funny.

Psychologist/ psychiatric appointments can indeed be hit and miss, in any case he doesn't like being told 'what he already knows' by a professional who has studied in their field for years.

Tends to blame everyone else for his problems and probably sneers at the clinicians steady HSE jobs too.

Wanderer78

Aglomerado wrote:

Tends to blame everyone else for his problems and probably sneers at the clinicians steady jobs too.

Yea narcissistic personalities can be very difficult to deal with, even for professionals, it is an incredable shame, as such people do have talents and abilities, but due to their beliefs, nothing truly changes or occurs. they tend to grow old, unfulfilled and friendless, they're just bloody difficult to deal with, many struggle with depression and anxiety issues, addiction issues etc etc etc

McGinniesta

Never went away.

There's the old quote that's attributed to Brendan Behan and to paraphrase.

There's two things that Irish People hate and they're success and failure.

Someone people will demean you if you "make it" and the self same people will criticise (exclusively behind your back) if things are not going your way.

And it isn't just social status that people will criticise you for.

You sexual or romantic history, your medical records both physical and mental levels of educational attainment, religious bent and the list goes on.

There's also the stuff that either happens unconsciously. the racism, the judging by physical appearance, by accent, by dint of geographical background. And we all do it.

That's the thing. Some people will try to tell you that they have no biases or are not prejudiced, which I believe is not true. I have no evidence for this but my experience is that we all judge. That's just the way we're made.

VayNiice

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

You mustn't have met many Dubliners then. The place is riddled with snobbery. From what school you went to, to your feckin post code.

Same in every county in Ireland. Cork is just as bad

lisasimpson

lisasimpson wrote: »

Think some of the most recent snobbery comes from those with new money . They may have gotten lucky in the last20 yrs and are v show offy about it. As the saying goes money talks wealth whispers
I hate when people ask o whats x doing now and say o hes a farmer, builder, plumber and they respond is that all. Only for these jobs where do yourfood house etc come from. Often are the 1st to complain how hard it is to get a tradesman when they need something fixed and the slowest to pay these workmen

That’s not really snobbery and is just a question. I don’t buy that argument about country folk and working class people doing well and becoming snobs. What I see is that people from lower middle and working class backgrounds tend to stay friendly with their school friends etc.

zell12

but we are a Republic where everyone is equal..

eviltwin

I know this girl, friend of a friend, who is a complete snob. And no reason to be because like Aglomerdo's example she doesn't work and has no skill set to get a job.

Anyway, she was telling me a story about her dad going to a part of west dublin to do a job and his car broke down. His phone was dead so he had to leave the car to find a payphone to call breakdown assistance. She said he was convinced he'd come back to a burnt out car because the area was full of junkies, single mothers and feral kids. Turns out his car broke down around the corner from my house!

Cue a "oh I'm not talking about you - obviously" from her. It was funny but she does, as does her family, really think she is better than people from working class areas and that day to day life is like The Purge or something.

The first time I met her dad - who knew where I lived - the first thing he said to me was "I was expecting you to look and talk like a k**cker". Nice family :rolleyes:

I don't see her much anymore but when I do I always get a patronising "aren't you great that you have a job and went to college and aren't on the dole" spiel.

Tony EH

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

How do you tell a person's class in Ireland?

Well, you kinda don't, that's the problem with bigots though isn't it? The assumptions made are based entirely on preconceived notions that they have in their heads that are, more often than not, wrong.

But it happens with great regularity. A certain way of saying a word. A phrase. Your address, your schooling, where you were raised, what your parents did for a living, what you do for a living, etc. all lead to triggering these notions that reside in some peoples heads.

Tony EH

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

what about a working class man with an average job who thinks he is better than the unemployed guy door who has a criminal record.

would that constitute snobbery ?

or would he be damn right ?

How can he get gainful employment with a criminal record?

Tony EH

Aglomerado wrote: »

Some of the worst snobs I have met are unemployed/ unemployable people. I know one who hasn't worked for years due to some sort of anxiety who still harbours a dream of writing a book and making millions on it, while sneering at my steady, 'boring ' job.

No book is being written and life passes him by as he spends his days on an Xbox in a dingy flat. While my boring job provides me with a house, car and plenty of holidays and concerts (hopefully again soon).

Conversely I know a family who owned a large business in Dublin and are worth a few million, they are the most welcoming, non-judgemental folk I have ever met.

That's neither "classism" or "snobbery". That's just him trying to justify his own present position in life. He'll have to grow up one day.

maestroamado

Fils wrote: »

There is a lot of fur coat around also. People with their pcp suv, not a pot to p1ss in.

fur coat and no knickers....

Purple is a Fruit

Any of the fellas my dad's age where I grew up who started off as labourers or factory workers and worked their way up to wealth... are still sound, and their kids are too.

Sometimes snobbery is assumed or the idea of it is based on an individual's perception of the world.

Wanderer78

Tony EH wrote: »

That's neither "classism" or "snobbery". That's just him trying to justify his own present position in life. He'll have to grow up one day.

...if he does not get help for his narcissistic issues, and any other issues, you may forget about that occurring

Tony EH

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...if he does not get help for his narcissistic issues, and any other issues, you may forget about that occurring

In fairness, you might be making assumptions about a condition he may not have W78.

He could just be someone who's simply afraid to or cannot get out of his present "comfort" zone and will lash out at anything that may cast him in a relatively bad light. It's a common defence mechanism and a way of deflecting any kind of criticism. Even self criticism.

Wanderer78

Tony EH wrote: »

In fairness, you might be making assumptions about a condition he may not have W78.

He could just be someone who's simply afraid to or cannot get out of his present "comfort" zone and will lash out at anything that may cast him in a relatively bad light. It's a common defence mechanism and a way of deflecting any kind of criticism. Even self criticism.

very true, but their behavior does resemble such behavioral issues, it is common amongst does that have disorders such as mine, and we continually just ignore it, its actually not good for the individuals, or for society at large, its highly dysfunctional, and requires appropriate help

Tony EH

Wanderer78 wrote: »

very true, but their behavior does resemble such behavioral issues, it is common amongst does that have disorders such as mine, and we continually just ignore it, its actually not good for the individuals, or for society at large, its highly dysfunctional, and requires appropriate help

Agreed. But we are living in a time when disorders like autism are becoming normalised and therefore they can tend to get ignored, or at least not mentioned, by society at large. This is not a good development.

zell12

zell12 wrote: »

but we are a Republic where everyone is equal..

That’s not the definition of any republic. Except communist ones, and they are lying.

Wanderer78

Tony EH wrote: »

Agreed. But we are living in a time when disorders like autism are becoming normalised and therefore they can tend to get ignored, or at least not mentioned, by society at large. This is not a good development.

no its not, theres many different types of complex disorders out there, so complex, we dont truly fully understand them, including my own, but we have a tendency to default to an out of sight approach, which simply doesnt work. it leaves such individuals in a very precarious position, they become deeply unfulfilled, deeply frustrated, and more and more dysfunctional over time. this isnt good for these individuals, or for society as a whole, as people still need to interact with these individuals, and they tend to be very difficult to do so.

tonycascarino

lisasimpson wrote: »

Think some of the most recent snobbery comes from those with new money . They may have gotten lucky in the last20 yrs and are v show offy about it. As the saying goes money talks wealth whispers

For most of the so-called ''new money'' people the ''new money'' in the majority of cases is borrowed money. The area around me is no different than living in Beverly Hills with the amount of mansions newly built over the last number of years. However, the houses in most cases certainly don't match the job titles of the people living inside them. There is something very wrong in this country where a person in a seemingly low paying job can build the same house as a doctor for instance. I guess it is living the dream temporarily and pushing their luck as far as they can before the banks come knocking on the door.

Wanderer78

tonycascarino wrote: »

For most of the ''new money'' people the ''new money'' in most cases is borrowed money. The area around me is no different than living in Beverly Hills with the amount of mansions newly built over the last number of years. However, the houses in most cases certainly don't match the job titles of the people living inside them. I guess it is living the dream temporarily before the banks come knocking on the door.

yup, tis all based on debt, unlocking the banks hasnt been good in many ways

Antares35

Fur coat and no knickers as my nan used to say. Anyone who's used to it doesn't feel the need to go on like that.

tonycascarino

tonycascarino wrote: »

For most of the ''new money'' people the ''new money'' in most cases is borrowed money. The area around me is no different than living in Beverly Hills with the amount of mansions newly built over the last number of years. However, the houses in most cases certainly don't match the job titles of the people living inside them. There is something very wrong in this country where a person in a seemingly low paying job can build the same house as a doctor for instance. I guess it is living the dream temporarily before the banks come knocking on the door.

Is this 2008? Where I live nobody would be able to buy an ex council house even if they were a doctor. I have a place because I bought 10 years ago.

Wanderer78

fvp4 wrote: »

Is this 2008? Where I live nobody would be able to buy an ex council house even if they were a doctor. I have a place because I bought 10 years ago.

...oh we ve gone well beyond the dysfunctions of that era now, tis only monopolies nowadays

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I remember years ago when my folks moved house and we’d this horrendous neighbour call in.

She was all utterly “charming” (in Hyacinth Bucket way) and then said “oh! I couldn’t live with this kitchen! You couldn’t swing a cat in it” (it was actually a pretty decent size kitchen.)

My dad just said “hmm… you’re fond of cooking cats then, are you? Where have we moved to?!”

I don’t think she ever called in again.

I'll fully admit to being a snob. I have no time for those happy in ignorance or think spending hours of a day in the bookies, or happy being supported by SW. I have no time for them. I do look down on them, shoot me. I also accept they could be the happiest people in the world. Good for them, now stay over there.

I've huge admiration for those that came from disadvantaged backgrounds and ignored the reverse snobbery 'who do you think you are?' He's a professional and one of my closest friends (no, really).

Only a fool would look down at a trades person, I've found them very smart, quick witted and a good laugh.

Outed. Phew, I feel better now that's out in the open.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll fully admit to being a snob. I have no time for those happy in ignorance or think spending hours of a day in the bookies, or happy being supported by SW. I have no time for them. I do look down on them, shoot me. I also accept they could be the happiest people in the world. Good for them, now stay over there.

I've huge admiration for those that came from disadvantaged backgrounds and ignored the reverse snobbery 'who do you think you are?' He's a professional and one of my closest friends (no, really).

Only a fool would look down at a trades person, I've found them very smart, quick witted and a good laugh.

Outed. Phew, I feel better now that's out in the open.

...are such people actually happy and fulfilled, or are they acting out their unhappiness?

is out of sight, truly working?

our educational and training systems are academically biased, but society actually requires a multitude of differently trained, in order to function

Aglomerado

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I remember years ago when my folks moved house and we’d this horrendous neighbour call in.

She was all utterly “charming” (in Hyacinth Bucket way) and then said “oh! I couldn’t live with this kitchen! You couldn’t swing a cat in it” (it was actually a pretty decent size kitchen.)

My dad just said “hmm… you’re fond of cooking cats then, are you? Where have we moved to?!”

I don’t think she ever called in again.

The Scottish sitcom Two Doors Down has a character 'Cathy' just like that, I would urge everyone on this thread to watch it, so well written and so true to life. And extremely funny!

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...are such people actually happy and fulfilled, or are they acting out their unhappiness?

is out of sight, truly working?

our educational and training systems are academically biased, but society actually requires a multitude of differently trained, in order to function

Possibly acting out their unhappiness, and it may not even be their fault.


However, DEIS schools get more financial assistance than other schools, free meals, SNA's and books etc.


However, it is very hard to break out, it's locally institutionalised, and 'inherited'.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

Possibly acting out their unhappiness, and it may not even be their fault.

So what do we need to do about this?

Deleted User wrote:

However, DEIS schools get more financial assistance than other schools, free meals, SNA's and books etc.

True, but does it resolve these issues? I've heard some truly horrifying stories from some of these schools, some clearly don't have a clue about such complexities, some even exasperate situations.

Again, our whole system is deeply flawed, we clearly need a multitude of differently trained individuals, not all academically so, our educational system largely ignores these alternatives, trades etc, particularly at the earlier stages, secondary. This helps to create animosity between different groups in society, there's nothing superior about those of us academically trained and educated, but we re made to feel so, we re all equally required.

Deleted User wrote:

However, it is very hard to break out, it's locally institutionalised, and 'inherited'.

Localised problems certainly seem to be very problematic, and stubborn to change

whisky_galore

zell12 wrote: »

but we are a Republic where everyone is equal..

Maybe a few socialist dreamers and poets in the GPO in 1916 believed that. In reality....lol.

Tilden Katz

eviltwin wrote: »

I know this girl, friend of a friend, who is a complete snob. And no reason to be because like Aglomerdo's example she doesn't work and has no skill set to get a job.

Anyway, she was telling me a story about her dad going to a part of west dublin to do a job and his car broke down. His phone was dead so he had to leave the car to find a payphone to call breakdown assistance. She said he was convinced he'd come back to a burnt out car because the area was full of junkies, single mothers and feral kids. Turns out his car broke down around the corner from my house!

Cue a "oh I'm not talking about you - obviously" from her. It was funny but she does, as does her family, really think she is better than people from working class areas and that day to day life is like The Purge or something.

The first time I met her dad - who knew where I lived - the first thing he said to me was "I was expecting you to look and talk like a k**cker". Nice family :rolleyes:

I don't see her much anymore but when I do I always get a patronising "aren't you great that you have a job and went to college and aren't on the dole" spiel.

Can’t think why. She sounds lovely. :pac:

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So what do we need to do about this?



True, but does it resolve these issues? I've heard some truly horrifying stories from some of these schools, some clearly don't have a clue about such complexities, some even exasperate situations.

Again, our whole system is deeply flawed, we clearly need a multitude of differently trained individuals, not all academically so, our educational system largely ignores these alternatives, trades etc, particularly at the earlier stages, secondary. This helps to create animosity between different groups in society, there's nothing superior about those of us academically trained and educated, but we re made to feel so, we re all equally required.




Localised problems certainly seem to be very problematic, and stubborn to change

You've answered it yourself we need all kinds of workers, by necessity we get them. There will always be, for the want of a better word, the social welfare class.


Re your anecdotes re schools. What some teachers have to put up with is horrendous.


You're saying our system of education is deeply flawed yet we are a nation that has produced many trades people. Where do we fall on the scale that warrants deeply flawed, above or below Noth Korea? Are there 20 countries in the world that do it better than us?


Why do you think our PLC/apprenticeship model isn't working? Drive along the M50 / other motorways you'll drive alongside plenty of trades people. How many more do you need?

Wanderer2010

There is a lot of snobbery in the GAA world, typically the lads who come from farming and business families who push them up the ranks of the hurling clubs and I always laugh when I hear some of them boast of their "great" jobs. Most GAA players are teachers in their old schools or bank officials- very mediocre, generic and not exactly well paid jobs. You could rake in 3 times much money in IT or Engineering.
But a lot of them seem to think they are sh!t hot because they work in a bank or a school. The days of those jobs being seen as impressive or somehow representative of your "status" are dead and buried!