Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

Sunny Disposition

I dunno is this moderated, but arguments about GAAGo and pay for play are for another thread.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578223#Comment_120578223

Good call..

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577752#Comment_120577752

What do you mean? The GAA don't own the stadiums apart from maybe Croker but it hasn't stopped the womens hurlers or footballers from playing there.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579135#Comment_120579135

This is interesting. Who owns the average so-called County ground then if the GAA doesn't?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579220#Comment_120579220

Generally the County Boards

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579135#Comment_120579135

You said hurling so I took it you meant all hurling not just the county teams..

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579326#Comment_120579326

And what is the distinction between the County Boards and the GAA?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579975#Comment_120579975

County Boards are separate entities - Whilst they get funding from the GAA, if a County Board turned around tomorrow and said they are pulling a team out of a championship, then that team is out of the championship. Nothing to do with GAA

If a county board wants to build a centre of excellence (ie the very shítty setup in Caherlohan, Clare), that’s the county that paid for it via loans, fund raising etc

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580128#Comment_120580128

Fair enough. I always assumed that County boards were a subset if the GAA as they always seemed to report to them, attend congress etc. I didn't realise they were independent of the GAA

carq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548679#Comment_120548679

This lad was laughed out of the room in 2021 spouting the same rubbish.

Now back again in 2023 looking for new bites.

I warned him that could would get a ‘natural hiding ‘ off limerick in the final. Must be plucky now cork have 3 points and back again 😅

Bass Reeves

Right we will split the GAAGO money amongst the players. The fee is 80/ year. We will assume that they get 100k subscriptions or 8 million. Technically RTE has 50% and there is running costs, but we will assume that the GAA have 4 million out of it.

There is 32 counties and add in NY and London. Now it will have to be split between footballers, hurlers, camogie and lady footballers.

60+ teams with panels of 30+ it's a bit with 1k/player. Lads like John Mullane need to take a lesson in mathematics

realdanbreen

Don't hear much histrionics about gaago after the fare served up in Thurles yesterday evening. I figured the poor old pensioners living up the mountain with no broadband and no money and unable to figure out how to work the smart TV would need a more committed group of advocates than last weeks mob!

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120595955#Comment_120595955

You're hardly expecting the same reaction every week are you?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120593631#Comment_120593631

Ad revenue etc too. Sponsorships etc.

One-off match purchases rather than full subs.

Likely wouldn’t be split evenly - Would probably be a split on who’s shown most -> least.

If you’re not shown/are barely shown you don’t get a cut. Same as most sports

Mantis Toboggan

That money that went into Dublin football to make them so dominant is what's needed for the likes of Kildare, Meath, Antrim etc. Question is are the GAA serious about developing hurling, I don't think they are.

Bass Reeves

Pat Spillane gives a different view to Donal Og's

Mantis Toboggan

Each County board should be brought up in an oirechtas style committee and questioned about what they're doing to promote hurling within their county and what their 3 and 5 year plans are. Again GAA ran by football people so doubt anything will ever change.

Davys Fits

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/21/new-hurling-handpass-rule-to-be-trialled-in-next-years-third-level-freshers-competitions/

This is good and well overdue

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626645#Comment_120626645

A degree of separation is already required!

evolvingtipperary101

The hurling handpass trial set for HE Freshers next season will not allow release and strike from same hand unless the ball is tapped on the hurley first.

Alternatively, pass can only be delivered with other hand

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626788#Comment_120626788

I'm not sure that this is the answer. What will happen is the person in possession will be surrounded and will just have to drop the ball leading to more rucks. I actually agree with Bonnar Maher being penalised yesterday as there was not a clear separation between hand and ball and there was no distinct striking action. OK, you could see on replay that there was separation and striking but neither were clear in real time. I also think that Limerick could have been penalised at least 20 times. The problem is that referees will look at Maher being penalised and be more reluctant to give frees.But if players are being widely penalised for dubious handpasses, they will quickly adapt so that there is absolutely no doubt a pass is legitimate

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626851#Comment_120626851

Does anyone know for sure what the outcome will be but I would argue there will less rucks after an initial teething period. The rusks develop because the reward is the throw out pass more often. That will not be the case with the new rule and I think movement of the ball on the ground will probably get rid of rucks. Its the possession at all costs mentality that is driving rucks and the current handpass is facilitating that. All sorts of secondary issues like spare hand tackles and bringing the ball into contact might also be reduced with this rule.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626851#Comment_120626851

It's gas that you actually acknowledge that Maher's pass was legitimate but still agree with it being pulled. What hope is there for the rules if this is the thinking?! A decision is either right or it's wrong. "Real time" doesn't come into it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626918#Comment_120626918

Possession at all costs is a mentality because it works. The new rule might lead to quicker release but a lot of people want these changes to return hurling to going long or pulling on the ground and I think they will be disappointed.

I think this rule will just lead to more rucks and more unpunished fouling. Defenders will wrap players up and also just foul the hurley or carrying hand.

The new rule on equipment is a no brainer and very welcome.

puzl

“Rule 4.2 specifies two technical fouls as being (a) to throw the ball; (b) to handpass the ball without it being released and struck with a definite striking action of the hand.”

So the free against bonnar would be justified by the lack of a definite striking action. I'd say 90% of handpasses yesterday didn't have the definite striking action. It's awfully frustrating for fans and players to see the rule implemented so inconsistently

I tend to agree with people who think one season of very strict implementation will result in a seachange in the approach to habdpassing. I'd say the little fake throw/hand pass is coached at this stage. Minimal delay, minimal signaling of the pass and you get away with it 99% of the time.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627412#Comment_120627412

So you would rather to see a rule being broken continuously and diluting the skills of the game rather then a few ground strokes? Im not trying to bring back ground hurling or is anyone else really, just trying to have a set of rules that work best for players and referees. Whats really old fashioned and archaic is allowing a game to evolve with gaping rule violations.

puzl

"Let it flow" is just another way of saying our rules are shite and our refs are being asked to do an impossible job. Advantage is how you let it flow. Letting lads wear their hurlers off each other is not letting it flow, it's ignoring the rules.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627601#Comment_120627601

I have definitely seen people who want to bring back ground hurling. On this very thread in fact.

Firstly I don't think this rule will bring more ground hurling just more rucks.

Secondly I don't think it will lead to a reduction in unchecked rule breaking. I think we will just be back here talking about a different set of fouls going unpunished.

Lastly I don't believe that hand passing (if executed correctly) dilutes the skills of the game.

At least it's being trialed now so we will either find it improves the game or it puts this idea to bed.

fuinneamh

I'm curious and not trying to have a go at anyone here. I'm just trying to understand where the people on this group stand with hurling. For the people who contribute their grievances with the modern game here, have ye enjoyed this years championship? Or can you not even watch the games because of excessive hand passing, tactics and scoring from distance or other legitimate complaints above?

So far this year IMO we've had some of the most competitive and full blooded games ever in Munster round robin as well as Wexford losing to Westmeath. I've absolutely loved it despite being a Waterford supporter. Just seeing the amount of evenly matched teams going full throttle at each other for 70 odd minutes is a joy to behold. The skill, intensity, drama and controversy is great. Limerick being a bit vulnerable is also great for the championship.

dohboy

Hurling is on death's door one week and better than ever the next. Such is the hot-take world we live in.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627846#Comment_120627846

It's a bit like the crowd that were moaning about gaago a few weeks back and now the same crowd are moaning that the tipp Waterford game is NOT on gaago!

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627846#Comment_120627846

To try and answer your question I think the quality of entertainment is irrelevant when it comes to rules. It would be a short sighted to suggest we ignore the rules because the games are entertaining and exciting at the moment. And the handpass rule as it stands is not fit for purpose.

zetecescort

think I've said it before but its like the rules of the road, we don't need more rules, just proper enforcement of the rules we have and then go from there. Let the "let it flow" types bring changes to congress if they want rules changed

megadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627846#Comment_120627846

From reading this thread from its inception, it appears there are a number of things the whingers want -

Less scores

Less teamwork

Less skill

Less composure

Less speed

Less preparation

Less drama

And somehow these things will make the game better??????????

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629511#Comment_120629511

Nah

Just more excitement would do.

fuinneamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628851#Comment_120628851

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629070#Comment_120629070

So the main gripe is why have rules if your not going to enforce them? Which I 100% agree with by the way but subjective refereeing does lead to controversy and controversy is the lifeblood of your narrative on the media and also of the shitetalk down the pub.

The only thing I'd say on the rules is that I've played too many clubgames that have turned out to be free taking contests that are just no craic for either team playing the game, never mind supporters. As Zetescort said, I could definitely see value in a review of the tackle rules to simplify them and allow there to be more consistency from ref to ref.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629511#Comment_120629511

They want the game to be exactly like when they were young.

Everyone seems to think the version of hurling they grew up with was "real hurling".

Limericks dominance is also a big factor. Look at the amount of "change football" threads we had because of the Dubs. Now the same people are complaining about the mark forgetting it was their whinging got it installed in the first place.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629511#Comment_120629511

Less scores- yes. Unmarked players or freetakers scoring from 110 yards, I could do without.

Less teamwork- I love to see accurate stick passes

Less skill- if you call throwing the ball or taking 10 steps skills, then yes. I would love to see more catching of contested balls which I see as a skill

Less composure - can't remember anyone looking for this

Less speed- again I can't remember anyone asking for slower players or a slower game. More ball in play time maybe

Less preparation- I don't think that this is an issue

Less drama- I don't remember anyone asking for this

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629511#Comment_120629511

Did you read any of the thread.? Lazy comment and way off the mark.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630354#Comment_120630354

Yes there has been a multitude of threads on changing Gaelic football and despite all the changes people stiil want more. The only real change Ive seen in hurling over the last 10 years was the round robin format. And this was a knee jerk reaction to the introduction of the super 8's in football. Many top pundits and players criticised its introduction at the time (leave it alone its fine, merchants) and now its the best thong ever happened. Hurling is not and should not be immune to changes as good and all as it is and especially blatant rule violations.

randd1

I don't see how being critical of some aspects of hurling is being seen by some as a dislike for the game. You can still marvel at the brilliance of the game while wanting the stuff that adds nothing to it to be tackled.

For far too long, us hurling people have been a bit precious about the sport, unwilling to listen to criticism. And it's got to a point now where teams can't play the game without repeatedly breaking the rules on steps, barging throwing, pulling and dragging. We're seeing a growth in the diving, feigning injury, abusing officials.

Should we not be critical of these things? I don't think they add much to the game personally.

And I think changing the hand pass rule will help combat that, or at least get the ball rolling. At the beginning, it might lead to more rucks, but eventually teams will get the point that being bottled up isn't worth it, so teams will likely plan to have the ball released quicker. This will likely see less barging along with likely less breaking of the steps rule from taking the ball into contact. And with players releasing the ball from the hurl/opposite hand, it allows tacklers to get in a tackle with the hurl as opposed to trying to drag/pull because players are holding onto the ball for the pass. Teams will eventually adapt to the reality to running into bodies just won't be worth it.

evolvingtipperary101

Stephen Long - Connacht Communications manager - came up with this

Brendan Bendar

Jeeez….. I’m dizzy…

Brendan Bendar

Will the points total from both Provincial finals today exceed 100?

Thats the burning question

Vinnie222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701141#Comment_120701141

With today's conditions it should be

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701141#Comment_120701141

Pints of cider maybe..

Brendan Bendar

The game itself was poor enough, and the ending epitomized some of the major problems of the game.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553864#Comment_120553864

To back myself up here. I knew the guy completely over reacted from a tiny sample size.

Munster Senior Hurling Championship 2023 - 2.91 goals per game (just shy of the 3.00 in 2022 which is the highest since the round robins in 2018 began again - excluding covid years where it was straight ko)

Leinster Senior Hurling Championship 2023 - 3.75 goals per game (highest of the round robin iterations since 2018 excluding the covid seasons where it was straight KO)

Basically, there’s more goals than ever really.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722240#Comment_120722240

Not saying you are right or wrong in your conclusions but you are using 4 years yourself which is also a tiny sample size.

In the Leinster hurling final since 2000, 16 teams have failed to score a goal.

In the previous 100 years this figure is 6.

That's taking one game - the same game - which leaves out turkey shoots, dead rubbers, etc. I think it deserves some explaining.

Averages are attractive as they are so easily calculated and have developed a disproportionate plausibility as a result. But they hide a multitude of variables, which of course is what they are designed to do.

callaway92

Was using 4 years because of the Round Robin format