Whey and Dairy Intolerance

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

As an aside, and since Kevin Hall is highly respected in this area, from 4 months ago

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33479499/

People participating could eat ad libitum. The low fat (10%) high carb (75%) participants ate less than the low carb (10%) high fat (75%) participants.

Ok I have read. To clarify what is you point posting link to this study?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Then don't talk in absolutes. There's nothing with carbs in and of themselves.

No one talks about these things in extremes. And, as I have said, food quality and food quantity are not independent. Both matter.

there is essential amino acids, essential fatty acids but there is no essential sugar-carbohydrates.

In fact sugar links to so many modern diseases, I think due to its waste products vs fat as clean energy with great efficiency.

Professional athletes more often switching over to fat energy to increase performance.
And many studies showing using ketones as prime fuel give people prolonged and better quality life.
You have to compare two source of energy yourself. As an experiment try no carbs for 6 month.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Ok I have read. To clarify what is you point posting link to this study?

A well-conducted study that didn't support the carbohydrate-insulin model you have been championing.

And you then said "Low carb not the only way agree, whatever suit you"

Your quote is essentially my point. Low carb is not the only way. Sustainability for the individual is important.

markmoto wrote: »

there is essential amino acids, essential fatty acids but there is no essential sugar-carbohydrates.

In fact sugar links to so many modern diseases, I think due to its waste products vs fat as clean energy with great efficiency

Humans tend not to define everything by what is essential. Some people find sustainability in having a little of what may not be optimal but helps them make better choices overall.

markmoto wrote: »

Professional athletes more often switching over to fat energy to increase performance.
And many studies showing using ketones as prime fuel give people prolonged and better quality life.
You have to compare two source of energy yourself. As an experiment try no carbs for 6 month.

Sources?

Because a lot of athletes won't do better without carbs.

That's not an experiment I will be carrying out. My carbs come primarily from vegetables and ginger nut biscuits and I won't be giving up either anytime soon.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

A well-conducted study that didn't support the carbohydrate-insulin model you have been championing.

And you then said "Low carb not the only way agree, whatever suit you"

Your quote is essentially my point. Low carb is not the only way. Sustainability for the individual is important.

Sure depends on body type and ability to control food intake.
However for majority overweight people low carbs is better option to start with in my opinion.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sources?

Because a lot of athletes won't do better without carbs.

Yes and no, human body capable creating enough glucose for variety of biochemical reactions.

To use ketones as primary energy (fat adapted) takes anywhere between 1-6 month and more you stay on ketones the more improvements you get.
Certain gray areas at the moment but looks we going into right direction, I will share some so you can see what I mean and why athletes start using to their own advantage.


- More oxygen available to cells (muscle, heart, etc)
Fat has the lowest RQ, Carbohydrates have the highest RQ (Ratio of CO2 production to oxygen consumption)


- Enhance resistance to fatigue
- Improve brain functionality, memory & focus
- More steady energy supply no high spikes up/down

- From personal experience. When I was on 0 carbs for 8 month, I have noticed, amount of energy insane, I could do far more push-ups, more weight. I spent twice as much time in the gym and the only thing forced me to leave either to go to work or elsewhere.

Some sources

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5407977/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaOldxX7ws

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

However for majority overweight people low carbs is better option to start with in my opinion.

Your opinion and science are not necessarily the same.

Your sources of choice is a demonstration why you shouldn't cite papers you haven't read or don't understand.

markmoto wrote: »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243

Some key points included:

• In a recent study, following a 12-week KD, corpuscular hemoglobin and mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration decreased within endurance athletes (n = 9) /COLOR][URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243/#B63-sports-07-00040"][COLOR=black]63[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=black. Iron inefficiency and other pathological conditions may contribute to the above results, thus impairing endurance exercise capacity.
• Red blood cell status may need to be occasionally measured for athlete wellbeing. Vitamin E and iron supplementation or a high-altitude training plan that could promote erythropoietin production may help to resolve this problem (supplementation...OMG)
• As we discussed above, a KD may induce muscle loss and excess oxidative stress.
• Branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) are widely reported for their protective effects on muscle atrophy and muscle damage, and the combined use of BCAA or BCAA-like supplements and KD may be preferred to sustain muscle mass (BCAA supplements....what is the world coming to?)
• KD was reported to cause hepatic insulin resistance in several studies, which could be attributed to increased hepatic diacylglycerol content that may lead to impaired insulin signalling
• A KD has potential and limitations, and further studies are warranted to investigate the combination of KD and other supplementations, or how to apply KD as a periodic nutritional approach, in order to discover a strategy for KD application.

markmoto wrote: »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5407977/

This one is about the benefit of exogenous supplementation of ketones so I'm not entirely sure why you included it as a support of ketogenic diet

• The practical relevance for athletes seeking performance gains of metabolic responses generated from prolonged fasting is negligible, whereas benefits of ketogenic dieting for performance with a high intensity component are equivocal (Burke, 2015). This has led to the exploration of exogenous ketone ingestion as a means to achieve acute nutritional ketosis
  
  

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Your opinion and science are not necessarily the same.

Your sources of choice is a demonstration why you shouldn't cite papers you haven't read or don't understand.




Some key points included:

• In a recent study, following a 12-week KD, corpuscular hemoglobin and mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration decreased within endurance athletes (n = 9) /COLOR][URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410243/#B63-sports-07-00040"][COLOR=black]63[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=black. Iron inefficiency and other pathological conditions may contribute to the above results, thus impairing endurance exercise capacity.
• Red blood cell status may need to be occasionally measured for athlete wellbeing. Vitamin E and iron supplementation or a high-altitude training plan that could promote erythropoietin production may help to resolve this problem (supplementation...OMG)
• As we discussed above, a KD may induce muscle loss and excess oxidative stress.
• Branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) are widely reported for their protective effects on muscle atrophy and muscle damage, and the combined use of BCAA or BCAA-like supplements and KD may be preferred to sustain muscle mass (BCAA supplements....what is the world coming to?)
• KD was reported to cause hepatic insulin resistance in several studies, which could be attributed to increased hepatic diacylglycerol content that may lead to impaired insulin signalling
• A KD has potential and limitations, and further studies are warranted to investigate the combination of KD and other supplementations, or how to apply KD as a periodic nutritional approach, in order to discover a strategy for KD application.

This one is about the benefit of exogenous supplementation of ketones so I'm not entirely sure why you included it as a support of ketogenic diet

• The practical relevance for athletes seeking performance gains of metabolic responses generated from prolonged fasting is negligible, whereas benefits of ketogenic dieting for performance with a high intensity component are equivocal (Burke, 2015). This has led to the exploration of exogenous ketone ingestion as a means to achieve acute nutritional ketosis
  
  

Apparently you have no opinion except ripping few words of the paper I kindly shared , you misrepresent in the post. As I said there is some gray areas at the moment but overall the keto/ketones products already used in athletes endurance.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Apparently you have no opinion except ripping few words of the paper I kindly shared , you misrepresent in the post. As I said there is some gray areas at the moment but overall the keto/ketones products already used in athletes endurance.

So...if you post studies to support a point and they don't support it, I should just ignore that and say thank you for linking some irrelevant papers?

The ketones are exogenous. That's irrelevant to a ketogenic diet, which the paper alludes to.


If you don't like someone questioning how a paper supports your point of view, don't post it. I didn't have a hissy fit when you questioned the language in the study I posted.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

So...if you post studies to support a point and they don't support it, I should just ignore that and say thank you for linking some irrelevant papers?

The ketones are exogenous. That's irrelevant to a ketogenic diet, which the paper alludes to.


If you don't like someone questioning how a paper supports your point of view, don't post it. I didn't have a hissy fit when you questioned the language in the study I posted.

Your conclusion incorrect, you did not read enough of that materials.
I provide you links so you can get some more information, and if you be able to rip something off and misrepresent as longer its sound against, no problems.

To me it makes no difference, I thought it might help you to see better picture, but if you don't want to see who cares right ? : )

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Your conclusion incorrect, you did not read enough of that materials.
I provide you links so you can get some more information, and if you be able to rip something off and misrepresent as longer its sound against, no problems.

To me it makes no difference, I thought it might help you to see better picture, but if you don't want to see who cares right ? : )

You're the one misrepresenting what the paper says. I just picked out relevant elements of them that suggest otherwise but feel free to correct me with a scientific defence of the paper and those points I highlighted, that's fine. I just highlighted it wasn't all it seemed.

But you've ready agreed with me anyway: low carb is not the only way. That was the only point I had made.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You're the one misrepresenting what the paper says. I just picked out relevant elements of them that suggest otherwise but feel free to correct me with a scientific defence of the paper and those points I highlighted, that's fine. I just highlighted it wasn't all it seemed.

But you've ready agreed with me anyway: low carb is not the only way. That was the only point I had made.

You just show me inability to read or admit regardless.
In other hand how do you know what is better or worst?
Do you like black or red, do you like vanilla or chocolate powder ?

Everything works on comparison, try a few things and then make up your mind. So if you never experienced ketogenic diet then you can't really say what works or whats better simply you have no clue.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

You just show me inability to read or admit regardless.
In other hand how do you know what is better or worst?
Do you like black or red, do you like vanilla or chocolate powder ?

Everything works on comparison, try a few things and then make up your mind. So if you never experienced ketogenic diet then you can't really say what works or whats better simply you have no clue.

You're the one who's been pointing out that a ethnic is the best diet because of carbohydrates and insulin. I gave evidence of a study that disagreed with that.

Then you linked to papers that apparently meant that a diet without carbs would be better for athletes and I pointed out some fairly obvious flaws in the studies, one being completely irrelevant.

I have zero issue with you thinking it's the best lifestyle choice for you or that it may be for others. But it also won't be the best lifestyle choice for other people. There aren't absolutes.

I'm long enough on the planet to have tried plenty of different approaches. You think I should give up vegetables to be lower carb? How would I replace the benefits such as the variety of micronutrients I get from veg? I have no weight issues. I have no health issues. I don't see the net benefit in giving up veg - a healthy option I enjoy - to go low carb because low carb.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm long enough on the planet to have tried plenty of different approaches. You think I should give up vegetables to be lower carb? How would I replace the benefits such as the variety of micronutrients I get from veg? I have no weight issues. I have no health issues. I don't see the net benefit in giving up veg - a healthy option I enjoy - to go low carb because low carb.

You didn't even bother to check what is ketogenic diet.
Vegetables is part of ketogenic diet. But since you are on low carbs probably already using ketones as energy source.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

You didn't even bother to check what is ketogenic diet.
Vegetables is part of ketogenic diet. But since you are on low carbs probably already using ketones as energy source.

I said to be lower carb. Not on KD. Please read what I said before commenting on it.

But thanks for telling me about my diet. I'd never have known otherwise.

Just had 4 ginger nuts with a coffee though. About 30g of carbs. Oops.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Just had 4 ginger nuts with a coffee though. About 30g of carbs. Oops.

Get few more because I said no

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Get few more because I said no

No, 4 was plenty this morning. 30g of delicious, caffeine-soaked carbs.