2021-22 UEFA Champions League

gimli2112

Thierry Henry looked crestfallen when Liverpool scored the other night he was sitting beside a very excited Carragher mind you

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119018807#Comment_119018807

Because they're playing to their primary audience which is generally lowest common denominator. I'd strongly suspect that they're coaching this into their commentators/pundits. Your man Fletch is almost the equivalent of Jim Ross in WWF from the 90s when they used to have the big evil foreign guy used to come in and insult the Americans and their women. Atletico vs Man City was the funniest of all.

SlickRic

it's easy to play the 'Pep overthinking again' line (i've done it before), but last night wasn't it.

Pep played the match pretty perfectly. in fact, the whole tie was close to perfect from him. his players let him down.

with City just a goal ahead, KDB comes off. some thought it odd, but he wasn't playing great. Zinchenko and Gundogan came on and set up Bernardo into space to help Mahrez score the City goal. Grealish plays well when he comes on. he has two chances to win it for City - one is cleared off the line, and the other is miraculously saved by Courtois.

City were cruising. Pep had got it right. the game was in their control. Madrid hadn't had a shot on target. nobody would've batted an eyelid at the subs if what happened next didn't happen. the subs actually helped change the course of the game further into City's favour.

Camavinga and Benzema then do something world class to set up Rodrygo for a tap-in.

This is where the City players absolutely lost it. Pep will have had it drilled into them to keep the ball, slow it down. sure, that's their main tactic anyway. and the players proceeded to lump the ball away from kick off, and let Madrid attack again. then they couldn't clear their lines, and City's defence did what they're prone to do when under pressure - they let in a goal when they shouldn't - a basically free header from a man shorter than both CBs, where the shorter forward isn't even doing something spectacular in terms of his run. it's simply bad execution from the players. After that, the players are still losing the head, with no control, and Madrid could easily have won it.

the players lost this. Madrid were fabulously efficient, but the City players simply bottled it.

there are ways to lose where it isn't a bottle job. i don't believe Barcelona losing 4-0 at Anfield was a bottle job. that was a slow suffocation of another team, with a dabbling of luck for the home team as Barca missed some chances. it wasn't a collapse. it wasn't a team falling apart, quickly and decisively, before our eyes.

If I was a City fan, it wouldn't even be entering my mind to question Pep on last night. i honestly don't think he did much wrong. it's the players who need to be looked at for being fragile in that elite moment when they most needed to stand up.

NIMAN

Thankfully I rarely listen to BT or Sky Sports analysts any more.

After years of doing it, I realised you don't really need so much patter after every game. It's OK for a listen after big nights like last night, or at half time in the Villarreal Liverpool game, but for standard EPL or cl group stage games, thanks but no thanks.

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119018930#Comment_119018930

Crouch is about the only decent one they have.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119018924#Comment_119018924

I agree City were a goal line clearance from going through and their poor first half performance wasnt anything got to do with shape or selection.

Was still fun watching Pep have a breakdown on the sideline

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119018930#Comment_119018930

These days I typically just wait until kick off time to tune in.

Fitz*

I put on BT after the games the last couple of evenings, just for the after game stuff. They generally have all of the complete interviews and more player reactions.

The lads on BT said that they wanted Man City to win because they wanted the all-English final as "it was good the company". Maybe there would be financial rewards with more viewers, ad revenue etc during the final.

Roy Keane a few weeks ago said that they had done "some good PR" for Harry Maguire, presumably to help him out as he was getting slaughtered at the time. Sky always pick Foden in their team of the year, best young player etc, even when other players might be more deserving.

It's clear to me that these British TV networks want to portray the 'British is better' mentality and look after their own, giving an air of superiority.

citytillidie

Tune in 5 mins before kick-off to get the teams, and turn off after the game who needs to listen to over paid people tell you what happened in a game you just watched.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119018924#Comment_119018924

With the 2 goal cushion, maybe on the 78th minute, he could have brought on Ake instead of Grealish?

He'd had enough warning in the first leg that RM are an attacking threat until the final whistle.

Can't say I saw any evidence of him reacting to close the game out.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019191#Comment_119019191

He brought on Fernandinho to help alongside Rodri.

They had complete control.

Players failing in moments cost them. the momentum of the match didn't swing until the first goal for Madrid went in. and chaos then came.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019243#Comment_119019243

But , the point the poster made was that Pep could have done nothing else. I'm suggesting he could have.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019174#Comment_119019174

They do, certainly, but as far as they’re concerned their audience is British, so I suppose it’s natural for them to do it(although it seems to be a specific trait to not criticise English players or teams at all).

It’s the same with F1, sky always put more time and attention to the British drivers for the same reason. It’s annoying for us because we have to generally use the UK feeds as rights for these things are generally bundled as a UK and Ireland thing. I would love if I could subscribe directly to the champions league/premier league through an app to get the stock global analysis but as long as Sky & BT are around it’ll never happen.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019330#Comment_119019330

Part of my point is that I think it's all hindsight.

Pep did his job. His players didn't do theirs.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019182#Comment_119019182

I enjoyed the post match and post ET on Virgin last night. Mostly cause it was just 2 lads who love their football looking as shocked and wrecked as I did.

Also they managed to argue differing views on why City lost without it becoming a panto.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019396#Comment_119019396

Agreed, with the other losses in the CL you could see it happening beforehand by looking at the teamsheets, where everyone would simultaneously ask what he was actually playing at-but he got it pretty spot on last night. Madrid caused them very little problems till the death.

It was criminal to lose composure and give the ball straight back to Madrid after the first goal, though. And when they did fall behind, his body language wasn’t of someone who thought they had any chance of winning it.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019514#Comment_119019514

Indeed.

He knew it was done.

Going into ET, he was left on the pitch with too many players who we know he doesn't totally trust right now.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019514#Comment_119019514

Madrid had the best of the chances in the first half. No shots on goal does not mean they didn't have some excellent chances to score. "very little problems" is a good bit off the mark.

After City's goal Real looked absolutely spent and didn't seem like scoring between that point and about 85mins

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019396#Comment_119019396

Bringing on serial fouler fernandinho into the bernabau in the dying minutes of the for Mahrez who while leave foden on, who offered next to nothing of an out ball, was bad. The sub congested their midfield as players sort of got in the way, actually gave Madrid a bit more licence to roam from the back as city were packing the middle of the pitch.

That's on pep and not the players. Especially as city sort of implorlded last week with tge very same substitute.

Ake coming on might have made more sense and pushing his full backs up limiting the room real had to roam down the flanks.

Fromvert

That was all on the players, the minute between goals you can see how lost all the City players are, not one of them wanted the ball. Tip off, ball back to Ederson, nearest player is a Real player 20 yards away, the City players don't want to know, they all have their back to Ederson and he launches it back to Courtois. Why aren't doing their normal thing of spreading wide and playing it out? We all know why. Cancelo is then more interested in wrestling with Vini Jr than trying to get the ball. He could even go and head it. He loses the wrestling match and gets skinned before Rodri wins it back and gives it back to him and he floats it down the line to Foden who is surrounded by players, the ball was never on but he just didn't want it. City became the team that didn't want the ball anymore, they where terrified.

A bottle job by the players and everyone at every level has had it happen to them, under pressure and everyone goes hiding.

Weepsie

Why is it a bottle job by players when its pep but not when it's Pochetino for so many? Despite all the evidence in the latter being players continuously letting a manager down.

Yes players last night lost composure, but real were fading when some of the changes last night were made and city sort of conceded the ball and space with them. Grealish created 2 chances, but he also overplayed the ball a lot.

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019174#Comment_119019174

The clue is in your post, British networks, of course they're going to be biased! Just because we're watching from Ireland doesn't compel them to be unbiased. The vast vast vast majority of their viewership are more interested in English players and clubs than anyone or anything else.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019900#Comment_119019900

Many British networks are not biased though so it's no excuse. You can be more interested in English players and still be enough of an adult to swallow the idea that British players dive and cheat and it's not just the "sneaky" Mediterraneans.

Fromvert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019852#Comment_119019852

Pep gets criticised all the time for over thinking (bottling) big team selections. His genius idea to take his best forward passer, best creator, best midfielder and put him in a position where all of his best attributes are negated was a hilariously bad decision in last years CL final. Along with playing no DM, something he hadn't done all season. Pep must be one of the most criticised manager for the mad tinkering he does in big games and the players usually get a pass because of it. I don't remember any City players getting criticised for last years CL performance, it was all on Pep.

Last night, the players absolutely wilted under the first bit of pressure.

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019919#Comment_119019919

When it comes to international competitions in sport?!

The BBC weren't biased towards Henman at Wimbledon?!

Clive Tyldesley could barely conceal his love for Manchester United on ITV anytime they played in the Champions League.

Channel 4 coverage of the Ashes?

What networks are you talking about and in what instances concerning international sports competitions involving English teams or players?!

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019729#Comment_119019729

that'd be fine if all the changes hadn't resulted in the City goal.

and then there was no sign of anything going wrong until the first goal. Momentum actually shifted towards a Man City charge to victory with the changes.

an absolute inability of the players to handle to pressure of the moment was the reason for the capitulation.

i'm the furthest thing from a Pep apologist. i laughed at his lack of a DM last season in the final. i've laughed at his Bayern side's annihilation at the hands of peak Ronaldo's Madrid. I've laughed at his City team going out to Lyon. he was largely at fault for a few of those.

but as i say, last night just wasn't on him. the players let him down.

awec

What's the legit way to watch highlights of the 2 matches? Is it online anywhere?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019941#Comment_119019941

Sorry I shouldn't have said networks I should have said media. But at least the likes of ITV will sometimes try get a pundit from the opposition too. BT have taken it to a ridiculous new level and it has been pointed out by many including other British media.

The BT lads who also do the Totally Football podcast are usually very disparaging of this kind of unprofessional bias for instance. Many in British print media also dont turn into children (tabloids excluded obviously)

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019396#Comment_119019396

It's never Peps fault.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019679#Comment_119019679

Even the best of the chances were only really half chances. There was one miss early in the second half that they should have scored, otherwise city didn’t look in too much trouble.

Nobody really was questioning Pep until the first goal went in, which is certainly different to previous exits.

One thing you can put on Pep though, is that it’s yet another exit where the opposition scores in quick succession - Spurs, Lyon and Madrid all scored goals quickly one after the other(I think Miguel Delaney had a stat that in ties that they went out in total they had conceded 20 goals in 92 minutes) Seems that after 6 years the squad is still unprepared for managing themselves after conceding, which is crazy. A blind spot for Pep or something that is so infrequent they don’t bother with it?

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020317#Comment_119020317

It is quite often Peps fault, last night I think it would be pretty harsh to pin the blame on him.

SuperTortoise

Pep manages every minute and every step his players takes, Arteta does the same, he does'nt trust his players to do the right thing themselves without being told to do so, last night when Real got their first goal none of the city players had a plan, they're so used to being micro-managed by someone else.

Pep ran out of ideas, and therefore his players ran out of ideas.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020351#Comment_119020351

Was just listening to Football Weekly and Sid Lowe points out that it's 88 seconds (not just in play) between goals and in that time it's basically kickoff - Ederson - hoof to Courtois - goal. That is a huge brain fart from Ederson to be acting in desperation when you are a goal up but also terrible from City not to take an age slowing down the restart. Not really Pep's fault there.

It was also pointed though that 8 of Pep' exits since he won 11 years ago were quick fire goals from winning positions. Half were 2 goals in under 10 mins and the rest 3 in 15 mins.

So something about how Pep coaches makes them very brittle or unable to adapt on the fly.

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020399#Comment_119020399

One of Peps ideas is ball retention yes? Are you telling me he suddenly forgot that idea after Madrid scored a goal with their first shot on target all game? I would imagine it wasn't his idea to lump the ball away from the kick off either and invite a Madrid with their tails up to flood forward again.

Now this ball retention gets drilled into these players heads every minute, and every step those players take to borrow your own phrasing, they have been micro-managed to keep the football right? So if instead they panic, lose the heads and **** the bed instead of carrying out what their micro-managing manager has drilled into their heads every day for years, is that really his fault?

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020429#Comment_119020429

Indeed. When the first RM goal went in in the 90th minute, a manager has to manage his players reaction. Another manager might have looked to make a substitution to halt any momentum before the restart, i.e. bring on Ake and use the stop to gather focus and calmness.

Agent Coulson

City spend 89 minutes with the total shithousery and the actual 1 minute they needed to do it and waste time and slow the game down they forgot to do it between the two Madrid goals.

That is on Pep he should have been on the sidelines telling his players to clam down after the first goal instead of sinking into his seat just when his players needed him.

They dont need him screaming and waving his hands at them when they are 4 up against a team that minute after the first Madrid goal is when they needed him.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020607#Comment_119020607

Surely the players should know this themselves. They should have shthoused but acted like they were chasing a goal. But obviously there is something in what Pep does that keeps causing these collapses.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020681#Comment_119020681

If those stats about his teams collapses are correct, then there must be something in it. Can't be just coincidence that a certain coaches teams keep throwing games away?

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119017488#Comment_119017488

Pep doesn't fundamentally believe in 'defenders' especially fullbacks. Zinchenko is a poor defender, more of a winger or midfielder, and it always seems Pep wants them to contribute as underlapping midfielders than fullbacks. Thay do their defending with the ball, often killing the game with passive possession and relying on the opposition not actually getting much of the ball. It's why they can struggle against good teams who attack them and are able to keep the ball.

The main reason they bought Grealish was because they could, it meant that he couldn't go to another team like United. Its as much to weaken the opposition as making themselves stronger.

SuperTortoise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020527#Comment_119020527

Ball retention is an overall philosophy, micro-managing is flapping his hands about telling a player he needs to move 1 yard closer to the touchline, undermining/correcting a players positioning constantly (in this example) can't do much for a players confidence, and as pointed out, the one time in the game he should have been giving direction to his players he was sat on the bench with his head in his hands.

BTW, i not pinning it all on Pep, despite the rivalry i'm a fan of his, one or two stronger characters/leaders on the pitch last night and they probably would seen it out, they were the better team over the two legs.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020926#Comment_119020926

Never mind defenders. What initially annoyed me about Pep is he doesn't believe in goalkeepers. Valdez was a midfielder who wore gloves.

NIMAN

Gareth Bale wasn't at the Madrid game at the weekend when they won the league, and wasn't at the celebrations afterwards either AFAIK.

And there was no sign of him around the bench v City, and celebrating on the pitch afterwards, so I'm guessing either he has officially quit attending games, or else he has been told he ain't welcome at then by the club?

If his Madrid career has ended like this, its a shame. He has scored over 100 goals for them, including in 2 CL finals. And who could ever forget 2018?

But as a club, they would be foolish not to have him on the bench for the final. He can change a game.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021676#Comment_119021676

Must have had another 'back spasm'.

https://twitter.com/GarethBale11/status/1520476795174277120

Quazzie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020926#Comment_119020926

It's the modern game. Liverpool are the very same. TAA is a woeful defender and Robertson being only slightly better defensively. In fact the latter plays as a winger for internationally.

theoneeyedman

I wouldn't have said the very same, the structure of the teams is a little different. It's often the positions the fullbacks start from that make them vulnerable rather than any lacking in defensive qualities, Robertson can defend, as can Trent, but it's not their prime requirement,or their strongest attribute, especially Trent that's true.

eigrod

Some achievement to have conceded just 22 goals in th PL, won the league cup, be in the CL & FA Cup Finals with a “woeful” defender and one only slightly better than that. Lol.

Fitz*

Isn't it any wonder with these terrible defenders that Liverpool managed to get to the final of the CL at all (no semi finalists conceded less goals than Liverpool) and have 10 clean sheets in their last 12 league games too (most overall in the league with 20 clean sheets in 34 games).

Must be that terrible high line I guess.

lawred2

Saw someone the other night saying that Real's victory was a win for football in the face of the growing problem of state involvement in football..

lol

lawred2

I think TAA can get turned inside out when someone runs at him.. in the grand scheme of things that's not much of a problem for him really.

Woeful .. haha

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119022297#Comment_119022297

I disagree slightly. I think he is decent enough with a standard winger facing him up I think. Obviously the top level winger is going to get around him, but the top level winger is going to get around every full back. Fast wingers get at James, Walker, Cancelo etc too and get around them fairly handy but doesn't get said as much.

Trent is brilliant at interceptions in defence and cutting out passes down the inside channel. He gets a bad rep because there is space left behind him which can be exploited by fast wingers. But that is a system problem, not a player problem. The team is set up this way, players get in behind Robbo too but he is quicker so can sometimes get back on the cover. The positives of having both full backs high up the pitch far outweigh the negatives.