Republic of Ireland Team 2023/24 [old thread]

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972848#Comment_121972848

ah I’m not. Hopefully duff is a good manager who can go all the way to the elite level of the game.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972714#Comment_121972714

I characterised the FAI not appointing someone over the course of 6 months embarrassing. You wanted a name and I gave you one, you’ve latched onto it and got hung up on duff. There are plenty of other managers they could have appointed.

You argue in bad faith.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972975#Comment_121972975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972979#Comment_121972979

Mod: Folks can you move on from this discussion now please, the back and forth over Duff specifically is derailing the thread. If you still need to discuss it do via PM. Thanks.

Zico !

The FAI are a joke they cannot do anything properly always make a balls of everything. Hill and co are a laughing stock.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973465#Comment_121973465

it’s important to say and that is why I am saying that expecting a football association to support the domestic league financially, underage national teams financially, the infrastructure and facilities needs across the country and servicing the associations massive debt, all from the proceeds of the income earned from the men’s and to an extent the women’s national team is not a reliable financial model.

The Delaney fiasco brought about better corporate governance in the new fai, but the financial model is that same.

Other European countries do not follow this financial model. Ireland does and naturally money is incredibly tight.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971906#Comment_121971906

The average attendance during Kennys time was 43k. If you take out Netherlands and France, the average attendance is 42k. In Kennys time, season ticket sales reached 23,000. The lowest attended match was 31k with only one other in the 30's. All other games were 40k or higher. (I've excluded any games played under the COVID restrictions where capacity was limited to 25k).

To compare that with the previous time under Mick, his average attendance was 32k. The lowest attended match was 18k.

Despite absolutely dire results under Kenny, he still sold tickets to games. What exactly was debunked? I would expect MoN's time to be around Kennys level in terms of attendance but we were qualifying for tournaments then.

Did you smash it

and all this while hoping to install a serious academy structure that for now amounts to something you’d expect to find in Malawi or somewhere.

it’s all kind of laughable

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972657#Comment_121972657

The Delaney era was shameful, but the new era is failing quite comprehensively imo.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973864#Comment_121973864

The Delaney era was shameful, but anyone thinking that a new board were gonna come in and suddenly everything was going to change overnight is deluded.

You can’t change everything all at once, it going to take years, and those implementing it are going to face dogs abuse as they slowly make these changes. It’s not as simple as new board, new FAI, new beginning. There’ll be legacy issues that take years to fix.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973924#Comment_121973924

Nobody is expecting change overnight but people do expect transparency:

• The redacted emails at the Public Accounts Committee was incredibly embarrassing.
• Jonathan Hill receiving €11,500 in lieu of holidays is incredibly embarrassing
• Having a CEO who doesn't live on the island doesn't make sense
• Not being able to appoint a manager after 6 months of searching is a joke
• Not having a sponsor on the jersey for several years is embarrassing

The old FAI were crooked. The new FAI are incompetent. Simply saying that the current FAI shouldn't be criticised because they have a difficult job to do is deluded. They have made big **** ups and should be held to account for them.

Jonathan Hill should go and so should Marc Canaham.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973924#Comment_121973924

Sorry, it's been four years.

There is a person specifically appointed with responsibility to get a manager, they have had 7 months since the tactical collapse to Netherlands at home (and arguably a time period before that following the Greece game where options should have been considered).

And then there are the issues with the CEO's expenses, diversity on the board and the general stakeholder awareness and political management. We've also quickly forgotten the shambles around the Women's World Cup lead in.

Can't keep hiding behind the Delaney legacy. These people are long bedded into their roles, they should be expected to deliver.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974025#Comment_121974025

Hadn't seen this post before I typed mine - perfect summary and fully agreed.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974306#Comment_121974306

The Delaney legacy is €60 million debt. And that debt that will hamper and real action the new FAI want to take, because they will have to spend years servicing it. It’s not as simple as saying Delaney is gone, no excuses anymore. He left behind him a shambles of an organisation, one that in any other situation would have been wound up and sold off long ago.

The new FAI are absolutely underperforming and have issues to sort. But some of these issues like getting a manager in would be an easier proposition if they didn’t have a mountain of debt to service.

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973569#Comment_121973569

Cos Kenny had Portugal, France and the Netherlands. Hell, even Serbia and Greece.

Mick had Denmark, Switzerland and Georgia.

I just don't see the link you are making? Are you arguing there was something special about Kenny that was filling seats?

tigger123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974379#Comment_121974379

If Delany didn't saddle the FAI with so much debt, we wouldn't be scratching around trying to find the chosen one who'll accept 500k per year to lead us out of the desert.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974379#Comment_121974379

Are they servicing a debt? I thought the government bailed them out with the condition that they’re watching everything that they’re doing.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975090#Comment_121975090

FAI and UEFA put together a rescue package to stave off liquidation but there’s still significant debt with the plan to be debt free by 2031

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974902#Comment_121974902

They didn’t pay the managers when they had big name ones like MON and Trap either. Their salaries were paid by Denis O’Brien or heavily subsidised anyway.

I thought maybe one of those tax exile billionaires would stump up like O’Brien used to do and JP McManus is still doing for the GAA. I wonder what sort of benefactor type donations does the IRFU get and does it all need to be declared? What revenue does the FAI have, just gate receipts for a few internationals every year and a few sponsorship deals. I know that regional soccer FA’s are cash rich from what they take in from all the grassroots clubs and the growth of the game at underage levels boys and girls.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974766#Comment_121974766

Take out Portugal, France and Netherlands the average attendance for Kennys reign is 41k. Serbia is already excluded because it was during the COVID restrictions and subject to a 25k cap. That removes every competitive glamour tie and just leaves Kenny with regular opponents on a similar level to Mick. Take out the Greece game (which you stated didn't appear to be attended well) and the average attendance remains unchanged as its down at 41k.

Micks second last game was New Zealand in a friendly, 18,000 attendance. Kennys final game was New Zealand in a friendly, 41,000 was the attendance. Thats a 23k increase in an equivalent game. Mick had the benefit that if we beat Denmark we still could have qualified for the Euros in the game after.

When you compare attendances under Mick and Kenny, its very clear that attendance rates were much higher under Kenny even when the glamour ties are removed. There's nothing to debunk in that. The average attendance rate for each manager is clear.

All I said was that: "One thing Kenny did was sell seats" - what exactly was debunked about that? An average attendance of 43k is excellent or if you remove the glamour ties 41k its still excellent. I never said there was something special about Kenny selling seats, I literally just said "one thing Kenny did was sell seats". You then jumped on saying that was debunked. It seems clear to me that there was a big jump in attendance from Mick→Kenny and despite the awful results under Kenny, attendances never actually dropped. I don't see whats controversial about that. Its embedded in the stats.

YTM

26,517 was the attendance for Kenny's final game against New Zealand not 41k. That many tickets were sold because you had to buy it as part of a package deal with the Greece game.

Did you smash it

I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, I think it’s important to examine as best you can what’s going on and not just accept the prevailing winds of opinion…

New FAI far from off to the races despite improved corporate governance

Can I shock you? There is no money in Irish football.

The Irish bred champion racehorse Galileo was valued at its peak at 200 million euros. The largest transfer fee paid for a footballer of an Irish club team is thought to be 500,000 euros (fees are not officially released) for James Abankwah. So if Coolmore stud decided to cash in on Galileo, they could buy 400 James Abankwah’s. Or they could buy Irish domestic football lock, stock and barrel; All the clubs, all the players and all the grounds (the ones that are actually owned by the clubs).

So when discussing Irish football, the FAI and the league of Ireland, it’s important to keep in mind that compared to a horse it is small time. Compared to the greater narrative of the global corporatization of football it is very small time.

Within this context of small timers, it’s perhaps fitting that the latest scandal in Irish football involves the CEO getting paid 11,500 euro (subject to tax) in lieu of untaken holidays. The purpose of this blog is not to speak much about this issue. In my opinion, the public accounts committee of Dáil Éireann have done that already to an over zealous degree that achieved little other than sneery grandstanding. You’re free to disagree with that assertion.

The purpose of this blog is to look at the financial model of Irish football, examine what has changed in the new FAI compared to the old FAI and gauge the public and political reaction.

The new FAI was born out of the old FAI becoming insolvent after an initial story about Delaney having to write a personal cheque to make up a temporary shortfall in the FAI’s liquidity was followed by a series of lurid media stories about the CEO John Delaney’s largesse to himself and allies. The new FAI went through an interim period were Niall Quinn was the CEO and a number of reports were commissioned to look at how the FAI were doing their business and make recommendations to improve. The upshot of these reports was a focus on the lack of corporate governance of the old FAI. The new CEO Jonathan Hill among others such as Roy Barrett (independent chairperson of the FAI who has since departed) had the responsibility of effectively changing the environment of the organisation so that all corporate governance recommendations were met. This process has had a few wrinkles but is generally on course.

What I feel wasn’t reflected upon enough during that frantic period between the transition between the old FAI and the new FAI is what else would be beneficial to look at in Irish football’s previous failures other than just improving corporate governance. This was the perfect time for a reset of the entire football model in Ireland and a mass discussion of where Irish football needed to go. To me this opportunity was lost but it is still timely to have it now.

Corporate governance is always of benefit to any organisation but the most important thing for an organisation’s survival is that it has adequate financial resources to corporately govern. The FAI’s actual financial model between the old and new FAI hasn’t changed and nothing I’ve read in media has explicitly acknowledged this.

The FAI exists on a financial model that the Irish senior international men’s team essentially is the only breadwinner for the entire association. There are some other parts of the business that would generate profit such as the senior women’s team or the coaching courses the FAI run but the large majority of income is traced back to the MNT. That resource therefore is expected to support all the financial burdens on the FAI such as the men’s and women’s national league, the underage teams for boys and girls, servicing the association’s massive debt and supporting the grassroots around the country.

….

That’s most of it, You can read the rest of it here if you want
https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2024/02/25/improved-corporate-governance-not-sufficient-as-the-only-hill-new-fai-should-die-on/

TheCitizen

Did you write that blog?

Don’t the clubs pay the FAI for administration of the league. That’s the way it works regionally at grassroots. The clubs get fees from membership and they pay their regional FA to be allowed to take part in competitions.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975376#Comment_121975376

Yeah, only one I didn't pull from Sky Sports. Doesn't change the averages or the point made. Pulled the 41k incorrectly from a newspaper article I didn't read.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975469#Comment_121975469

Yes I wrote it. The league pays registration fees to the association alright but it’s not likely to be enough to surpass the amounts the FAI has to pay out in prize money, to referees, promotion, end of seasons awards nights and probably other stuff I’m not aware of. If the fai were creaming money off the league it’s likely the league would properly explore breaking away and being like the premier league. Instead an independent breakaway is not an option despite many clubs hating the FAI.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975562#Comment_121975562

At grassroots level the clubs pay the refs and the regional associations make money out of all the clubs and all their teams that they enter into competitions. There isn’t prize money involved as its grassroots amateur leagues bar the price of cups and medals. The League of Ireland winners get feck all anyway don’t they? I don’t get why it isn’t that way at senior level between the League of Ireland and the FAI, that the FAI just administrate but the clubs pay for everything through their membership and revenue.

What is the reason for the debt exactly? It’s not to do with the above is it? I thought it was to do with Delaney making an arse of the Aviva costs. He tried to set up long term deals for fans to pay for international games to pay for it but there were no takers while he ran the whole show into the ground in other ways.

The money that was took in from tax exile Denis O’Brien to pay the MON and Trap managers salary for a few years did actually pay for itself with qualification IIRC?

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975637#Comment_121975637

clubs paying refs wouldn’t be done at elite level for obvious reasons. I can’t speak to regional associations being rich from amateur clubs. I can only say you are the only person I’ve heard that from. The prize money is awful but it’s still about 250k of a prize fund.

The debt is on the the Aviva I think mainly yes.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975674#Comment_121975674

The clubs wouldn’t be paying the refs directly, this isn’t Serie A in the 1970’s lol. It would just be a cost that they would all pay. At grassroots the home team pays the ref’s match fee. And the regional FA organisations are making money. I don’t know if you’d use the word rich but they’re taking in more and more from a growing number of clubs and growing numbers of teams from all those clubs.

Soccer is a hugely popular game in Ireland I think the FAI could make money if they got themselves organised. If attendances in League of Ireland continues the league should be looking after itself.

Niall_76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976047#Comment_121976047

The clubs were paying officials long after 1970s. I’m not sure if they still do but I assume there’s a good chance.

Niall_76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973549#Comment_121973549

What financial model do other countries follow? I would’ve thought the income for the national team is key for all countries?

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976508#Comment_121976508

the leagues would not be a dependant, the national association would earn substantial money from licensing their national league. The government help would be far larger, its at a pitiful level in Ireland which has been acknowledged by Sport Ireland and TDs.

The FAI and the IRFU had to pay for the majority of the Aviva development. In contrast Polands national stadium Stadion Narodowy was entirely financed by the state.

should we expect national sports associations to be able to finance the building of huge infrastructure projects? I mean Delaney fcuked up the 10 year ticket pricing structure (vantage club) but really, should we expect national sport bodies to be building developers? It’s a question that just never comes up in Ireland.

In Europe it’s more on the state to be responsible for provide municipal facilities.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976765#Comment_121976765

They can’t even provide housing at a reasonable rate and cost for a growing population or build a national children’s hospital without making a big deal out of it. They’ll offer to cut your taxes though so you’ll have an extra 5er in your pocket at the end of the week. We need a general election. I’m having a bit of a cod here because I know we’re in the wrong forum for this kind of chat, but in reality all of these things are connected.

PTH2009

The good looking French manager told us 'nah I'm OK thanks'

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976942#Comment_121976942

Fianna Fáil tried to build the Bertie bowl as a national stadium. I don’t exactly know in fairness if it was political opposition, irfu or the fai that sunk that project. I think all three but in what proportion I don’t know.

The irfu like their own place and the fai seemed to want their 40 year lease as tenants. So I have to concede it’s also a financial model that the fai have found themselves in that they, to an extent only, have being comfortable with

Niall_76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976765#Comment_121976765

Definitely need more state involvement but was the current state a model that was chosen by the FAI?

Maybe more lobbying could be done but I suppose the problem is that the government money on infrastructure has gone in one direction.

PokeHerKing

I've said it before on here that I'd happily pay a football tax if it meant we improved.

If the reason we are the dregs of European football is a lack of state involvement than tax away.

I mean waste/mismanagement/cronyism wexist across every area regardless but its no reason to not invest in services/infrastructure.

Zico !

The FAI are a complete joke and inept.

If you think they are bad at senior level you wanna see what they be doing at amateur and junior levels throughout the country.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978010#Comment_121978010

A football tax. Goodluck. I'm not paying money to the FAI so their CEO can't get cash for not taking his holidays. It's bad enough having to pay for the lifestyles of the rich and famous in RTE.

The FAI over the decades have done nothing but show disdain towards the Irish public with how they've used our taxes. The last thing they should do is be given even more.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978823#Comment_121978823

there’s no chance of a football tax.

But your comment about the fai using or misusing taxes is utterly false. Any government money that went towards football projects were applied to their intended purpose by the FAI as far as we know. There is no evidence of any misuse of funds.

it’s not like the government gives money to the fai and says do what you want with that . It doesn’t work like that….at all.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978823#Comment_121978823

Look I'm not disagreeing but at the end of the day tax payers money is wasted en masse but we still need to pay tax to have any sort of services/infrastructure.

By all means increase the visibility/governance etc of it all. But if we're behind the 8ball in European football because of lack of state funding then I'm happy to fund it.

Even if that means accepting 50% of it will be squandered/mismanaged.

Still leaves Irish football 50% more competitive.

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978866#Comment_121978866

Yea, it's the money from sponsorship, members, tournament tickets, gate receipts etc that has been squandered and misspent, not the capital money from the exchecquer, so everything is rosy 😁

Personally, I wouldn't by a 2 euro raffle ticket from the FAI. Pi55, up brewery, etc.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979056#Comment_121979056

the guys point was they shouldn’t get anymore government money because they misused what they got.

That is completely false. I think it’s good there are people on forums like me that can correct people when they spread misinformation. Unfortunately the modern world seems to embrace misinformation if it suits a preferred narrative

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979107#Comment_121979107

That reminds me of something else that demonstrates the incompetence of this FAI:

• At an EGM in November, they did not receive enough votes to expand the Board to 14 to allow 2 women onto the board. This put €4.35 million at risk owing to the Governments policy.

Any competent CEO locks that vote up long in advance of the meeting. I've never walked into a board meeting and into a vote where the outcome wasn't already decided. It's not hard. Instead, it was front page news.

It took another EGM to get it over the line with a modification to the wording. It was a complete embarrassment.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979455#Comment_121979455

did it really make much difference? Bottom line it was accepted.

any ceo of the fai who’s trying to make changes in the association is going to be on a shaky ground with regional delegates who are protecting their own patch and resistant to change. Sacking Hill won’t solve that issue in my view. Maybe there’s a ceo out there that unite the regions in a common sense of purpose . Maybe Delaney did that.

I also noted with interest the governments demand to have a gender quota on the FAI’s board while making no such demands of themselves with regard to their ministerial cabinets

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979516#Comment_121979516

It made a difference, it was front page news. It was embarrassing for them. At that time we still didn't have a sponsor. Press like that doesn't help. They were asking the Government for €517 million at the time, if they can't meet such a simple policy, why would the Government even listen to them? Optics are important and Hills FAI have been a disaster at that. Ironic considering his background.

A competent CEO gets it right the first time. It really isn't difficult, don't call the EGM until the vote is locked up. Speak to your delegates first.

I've never seen someone defend the FAI to the hilt. They've done a terrible job since taking. Hill should go along with many others.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979576#Comment_121979576

if getting rid of Hill solved the problems with Irish football I’d be the first to want him gone.

But I doubt anyone good would want to be the ceo of a football association in a country with as dysfunctional a football scene as Ireland. The competency or otherwise of the fai is a sideshow to what’s really going on; Irish football depending on a financial model that will never work.

There’s a lot more easy money out there for football administrators in places with an actual functioning football economy

ShamoBuc

Mod Note

A few posts deleted.

@bren2001 @Did you smash it Both of ye are now Threadbanned for 1 month.

breffni bogballer

Back to the ROI football teams,the women really up against it tonight,3-0 or less will be a decent result, total defense for 90 mins ,1-0 already

mjsc1970

Still only 0-1.

PTH2009

That sexy French bastard might feel inspired to take the Irish job now

el Fenomeno

Imagine taking the shot here instead of squaring it. Unforgivable.