Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924095#Comment_117924095

Robbie, you are the only person who mentioned "cancelling". I never mentioned it. Why are you trying to get me to back up an assertion that YOU made.

I'm saying I am uncomfortable that a divisive gesture is being used by a campaign I would usually be 100% behind. I was exceptionally clear in the last few posts.

If that is "cancelling" then fair enough. I wouldn't use that word, especially in this context (is it possible to "cancel" a gesture?), but if you want to, have at it. Is it some attempt at a "gotcha"?

You seem to take your own meanings from others statements anyway, so why stop now?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924116#Comment_117924116

You want them to stop the taking of the knee a gesture that is ongoing? Yes\No

If yes what is wrong with saying you want it cancelled. Is that not what you want. I'm really confused by your post now.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924164#Comment_117924164

He/She doesn't support it Robbie thats where it ends. Doesn't even mean he/she would boo the knee, I wouldn't bother but I wouldn't be cheering taking the knee either. Correct me if Im wrong Dunne but thats my reading.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924164#Comment_117924164

Why are you trying to make me say "I want it cancelled" when I articulated exactly what my feelings are when it comes to the topic?

I've already said that if YOU want to class what I said as "wanting it cancelled" then fine, go for it. It's not a phrase I use in normal day to day, especially when referring to a gesture.

What exactly are you trying to get at?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923998#Comment_117923998

So, why the hostility towards pale who do want to take a knee? I assume you're totally fine with an individual's right to make said gesture, should they feel to do so.

I feel the roots are more in connection with Colin Kaeperneck than BLM.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924185#Comment_117924185

I probably wouldn't boo it either, but am very opposed to the assertion that anyone who does boo is a racist or a virtue signaller.

It irks me so much because I am completely opposed to racism, but can't get behind the Say No to Racism initiative because I don't agree with the divisive gesture

You don't have to worry about misgendering me by the way. I'm a boy. :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924266#Comment_117924266

I think people are wholly entitled to take the knee, but people are also free to boo the gesture without being labelled a racist. Personally I don't think I would bother.

The roots go further back than that, but it's still going to be linked with BLM for quite some time.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923947#Comment_117923947

So now your argument shifts to you thinking that you know the reasons why Troy Deeney is taking the knee and those reasons are not a protest against the daily racism he faces but really showing his support for the BLM political organisation in the US. Even though the players have come out several times now and clarified this not to be the case you refuse to believe the words coming out of their mouths and instead deliberately misinterpret what they are protesting for.

You can draw all the associations you want with a gesture that is more than 200 years old and was used by Kaepernick in the sporting arena way before the any BLM protests but that doesnt make it true when its the players themselves know what they are protesting for. They are the ones facing daily racism meaning they are the arbiters of their own protest so frankly your opinion doesnt really matter here. They've told you what they are protesting for, you refuse to believe the words coming out of their mouths and instead try to twist their protest into something that they have explicitly stated it is not.

Like I said why dont you DM Troy Deeney and tell him that the dunne has associated his protest against the daily racism he faces with BLM in America and therefore he shouldnt do it? His DMs are open, are you afraid of expressing your opinion of the reasons for his protest or something?

Billgirlylegs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924266#Comment_117924266

Colin Kaepernick objection was to being required as part of his employment, to declare loyalty to the state that he felt discriminated against a section of the citizens. He sought out people on ways of registering his objection, without being insulting or disrespectful.

The soccer gesture is pointless, meaningless and is a matter of people jumping, 4 years too late, on that bandwagon. That odious twerp Lewis Hamilton trying to do a copycat perfectly underlines the empty pointlessness of the gesture.

There are a lot of footballers who do a lot of good work helping people in different ways.

This kneeling stuff is showboating. What is the objective, and how do these people plan to measure it or achieve it. How much improvement has it produced to date?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924299#Comment_117924299

Absolutely bonkers to me that an anti-racism gesture is somehow more divisive than actual racism.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924429#Comment_117924429

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55151065

"They've told you what they are protesting for, you refuse to believe the words coming out of their mouths "..

England captain Harry Kane says Premier League players should continue to take a knee before matches in support of the Black Lives Matter movement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924429#Comment_117924429

My argument has never shifted and yet again you are completely misrepresenting me.

I'll try one last time:

I am not telling ANYONE their reasons for taking the knee are anything except what they believe them to be. I would be dishonest to state as fact that anyone was lying.

but I AM telling people that their method is a method I, and many others, can't support, although I believe in their cause and would be behind them 100% if they used a unifying gesture rather than the knee.

That is not telling people what to do, or attributing my own interpretation of their reasoning.

I'm certainly not afraid of voicing my opinion to anyone. I don't see a reason to DM anyone to tell them as I am sure they are well aware of the controversy around taking the knee and are choosing to ignore it (which is their right)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924455#Comment_117924455

Thats a good thing.

We are all in agreement that racism is bad. But people aren't in agreement that the gesture is the right way to combat it.

That's much better than the other way around.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924461#Comment_117924461

Whats your point? The Queen of England also said she supports the movement, are you claiming that then means she supports a political party called BLM in the US? Can you show us some links where the Queen said that? (or the players for that matter?). They've all been clear with numerous statements as to why they are taking the knee so why are you trying to connect them to a political organisation in the US when at no point they have said they support their objectives?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924854#Comment_117924854

I know they have said that is for a completely different reason, but you can't honestly say that it wouldn't have been a better idea and more unifying to use a different gesture instead of using the EXACT same gesture that they used SPECIFICALLY for BLM, while their jerseys and armbands were emblazoned with Black Lives Matter, their advertising boards promoted Black Lives Matter.

Again, I don't think people are saying anyone that takes the knee is supporting BLM, but rather that they are using a divisive gesture that isn't helping the Say no to racism campaign.

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872774#Comment_117872774

The England captain got it wrong. Two months before that interview the Premier League dropped all mention of BLM and replaced it with "No Room For Racism" and BLM hasn't been seen around Premier League matches since.

Meanwhile, we're 5 matches into the new season. They are still kneeling and there has been hardly any booing. I've watch all the Liverpool matches so far and the gesture has been enthusiastically applauded at those matches, as I fully expected it to be. There was a tiny bit of booing at Elland road, but it was tiny.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924918#Comment_117924918

And what others are saying is that this argument is actively looking for a way to demean the argument of those calling for action on racism.

As said before, it doesn't mean a person making this argument is racist, but racists are glad to see someone making this argument.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924918#Comment_117924918

What is divisive isnt the players taking the knee to protest against the racism and discrimination they face on a daily basis themselves. No political organisation has ownership of taking the knee, there is no copyright or patent on it. The same goes for the black power salute, again nobody has ownership of it. If you want to solely associate taking the knee with the George Floyd protests but simulartaneously not associate it with Martin Luther King and Colin Kaepernick who also took then knee then thats up to you. But it is a fact that it is associated with them long before any of us had heard of BLM. You just choose to selectively associate the gesture with one group but not the others.

What is divisive isnt players taking the knee, it is racism itself. And as we now know racists like to boo players taking the knee becasue they hate black people. Racism is the very idea that we divide society on lines of the colour of someones skin and thats what is divisive and thats what these players have said time and time again. If you dont want to believe the words out of their mouth as to why they take the knee then thats your problem, not theirs.

Tell me how

Anyone else getting tired of this 'holier than thou' attitude expressed by many of a conservative nature whether they are in the US, Ireland the UK or beyond as they lament the damage done at some (the minority) of BLM protests implying the damage they do to society, communities, businesses etc when many of these people support governments who do significantly more damage to society and particular communities through their policies.

Gavin Williamson, as UK Education Secretary, cautioned against calls to have more black history focused education in schools which he suggested might be indoctrination. He also pulled funding of school meals programs during the pandemic until Marcus Rashford forced the government to backdown. But Rashford, when he kneels calling for action against racists, is accused of being divisive, and as a consequence problematic while the actions of those who do things such as Williamson (or the wider UK government who are right now in the process cutting funding to every UK family by 1K per year) get a pass.

Or you can look at conservative policies restricting access to healthcare in the US who then lament the harm BLM protests do on communities as another case of hypocrisy. You either are worried about poor black communities or you aren't. But if the only time you stand up for them is when accusing others in the community of doing harm to them or their cause, I for one amn't buying it.

Foxtrol

I can't believe there are still claims in this thread that another form of anti-racism protest would be more acceptable to those who are currently feigning outrage about things they've made up in their head about taking the knee.

Taking the knee for Kaepernick came from a US soldier who advised him it was more respectful than his initial sitting for the anthem - he was still booed and chased out of the league by those that hated his protest. Then other players took a knee before the anthem - they were still booed. Then players agreed to take a moment of silence and they were still booed.

Over and over again, history has shown that portion of society will find an issue with whatever type of anti-racism or equality protests are being undertaken. You can call that group whatever you want but I wouldn't want to be associated with them.

Lol.

Actively and purposely missing the point in order to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with them as racist.

I'll park my side of the argument with an absolute statement of my opinion that even Robbie couldn't misrepresent:

Racism and racists are terrible and shouldn't be condoned.

Taking the knee is a terrible gesture to be at the forefront of any anti-racism campaign due to BLM using the exact same gesture to be a the forefront of their movement. It's hard to believe that the decision to use the same gesture wasn't intentionally provocative/an attempt to piggyback the BLM publicity.

People opposing that gesture are not racist. People opposing the intent of the campaign are racist.

None of this is faux outrage. It's giving an opinion and giving a reason why I have formed the opinion.

A lot of people here seem to be of the opinion that because racist people also do not like taking the knee, but for a different reason, opposing the knee makes me tacitly supportive of them...

If you actually thought that, then surely by that rationale then because BLM support taking the knee, but for a different reason, supporting it is being tacitly supportive of BLM.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924443#Comment_117924443

Colin Kaepernick was employed by the San Francisco 49ers, who never seemed to be all that bothered about it. They never took any action and allowed his team mates and head coach to credit him with his stance. He olny left when a new coach was brought in didn't play him for football reasons.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923357#Comment_117923357

Every footballer will get some abuse online thats the nature of football, its a tribal sport that often brings out the worst in people.

Its up to the social media companies to police this and filter/delete messages at source before they are delivered.

Its very simple to do.

Why is the media trying to hammer people over the head with this racism/diversity virtue signalling ?

I turned on Sky Sports News last night and the first topic up was Marcus Alonso saying that he wont be taking the knee anymore.

Then Troy Deeney was on and after that some chap from some anti racism board was on.

Why is this even in the news, there is very little racism in football grounds nowadays in the UK and Ireland, its almost been stamped out and rightly so.

Most of the online abuse, which is tiny in the larger scheme of things comes from abroad.

After the Euros final the media were up in arms about the online racism players received.

The Centre for Countering Digital Hate, meanwhile, found 105 Instagram accounts had directed abuse towards England players after the final. 

BBC Newsnight’s investigation revealed the locations of 64 of those accounts, of which only 5 came from the UK.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925219#Comment_117925219

Again, your opinion completely ignores all evidence that no matter what way people throughout history, including sport, have chosen to protest racism the same opponents find ways to complain about it. We see here in boards, the exact same who claimed 'I'd support the street protests if they were only 100% peaceful' last year are the same people who are now finding a new excuse to not support this form of peaceful protest. These people will always, always twist themselves in knots to find an excuse for it why the latest approach to protest racism is not to be 'the right way'.

MLK wrote that he was coming close to the conclusion that the people who say 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods' are more a stumbling block to the progress to his goals than the KKK.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924318#Comment_117924318

Fair enough. I'd argue you can show disagreement without booing. I don't agree with the concept of national anthems for the same reasons, but I'd never boo one.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925219#Comment_117925219

Yes I support BLM.

I support the ideals that Black people, as a community have experienced, and continue to experience judgmental and disproportionate actions at the hands of many of societies institutes.

But because I think this, that doesn't automatically mean I agree with the words of every individual within the BLM movement, whether they identify themselves as an organiser, founder or just someone attending. I've repeatedly said on here that anyone committing acts of violence or robbery should be prosecuted. We saw last year that the vast amount of BLM protests, speakers, attendees were entirely peaceful. There has been an effort to ignore that so as to denigrate the entirety of their call for fair treatment. I really wonder about anyone who looks at a group who have been treated unfairly, and views them as being the dangerous party for having the audacity to call for change.

US sports make a big deal of military occasion and attendees (not to mention the cost of Air Force Fly overs while the anthem is being played) and UK football teams make a big deal of the poppy. Neither of those have been condemned in the same way BLM has been.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925219#Comment_117925219

What's with the dragging my name into posts for no reason and making up little pet names for me.

It's s very weird behaviour unless your are trying to woo me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925432#Comment_117925432

That's a very good point.

And I agree. I'm not saying that every supporter of BLM advocates for **** actions of people who claim to represent BLM.

I'm just saying it's a divisive gesture. And my personal opinion is that BLM caused more racial division than repaired it

I'm not happy to see people boo an anti racist initiative. Not even a bit. But I understand why they would.

I think that despite our different political opinions, we are completely in sync with our belief that racism is abhorrent. I just think we differ on the most effective way of getting people behind such an initiative.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926052#Comment_117926052

You are not racist but you support the racists right to be racist. I think I understand now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928934#Comment_117928934

You don't.

That's not what I said at all.