Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929485#Comment_117929485

Hahaha Its like a Conversation Black Hole.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929498#Comment_117929498

Because of the gravity of the conversation?

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929765#Comment_117929765

Non, mon ami. ha

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930551#Comment_117930551

Unsurprising extreme hypocrisy here.

You are upset and claim the poster is doing the exact thing that you have stated that you 'understand' the booers doing - refusing to accept the 'actual words' of the players and instead making a 'bizarre interpretation' about what the protest is about.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930593#Comment_117930593

Selective reading on your part

I have literally said that Im willing to believe that the players aren't kneeling in support of BLM. My issue is that the gesture is unfortunately linked to BLM.

In much the same way I wouldn't support an anti cancer initiative if they garnered publicity by doing Nazi salutes, that doesn't mean I am pro cancer or do I think everyone doing what they think is a good thing is a Nazi.

But you know, check me out being a complete hypocrite because I don't think people having an issue with the gesture are all racists.

Fuck sake lads, try harder. Or actually, don't bother.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930962#Comment_117930962

I said I wouldn't be able to get behind a cause which explicitly used a gesture associated with a group I disagreed with.

Highly controversial stuff.

The equivalence was between a gesture being associated with a movement, and not an equivalence between the movements.

But you know this.

And on we go.....

*Edit* an accusation of bullying too? Lol

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930693#Comment_117930693

As always, it is obvious when someone has completely lost the discussion when they make wild Nazi comparisons.

'People who have ideas I don't agree with are comparable to a group the committed genocide, killing millions'... Utter nonsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934232#Comment_117934232

And once again, you've completely misinterpreted what I said. Nobody is comparing BLM to Nazis. The simple point is that a gesture can be associated with a movement or an ideal despite protestations to the contrary.

But instead of recognising you go off on a tangent and attempt to paint me as saying that people taking the knees are Nazis.

Bad faith, poor form and wholly transparent way of arguing.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935129#Comment_117935129

I didn't misinterpret anything - you literally used the line 'In much the same way'... how can you possibly use that sentence and not be in some way comparing the thing that follows?

If someone posted they disliked your opinion on how to deal with racism 'in much the same way' they dislike the opinions of Hitler then I suspect you'd be understandably upset.

It just shows how wildly you have to swing because your claims of 'understanding' of the made up excuses of those booing a peaceful anti-racism protest is so incredibly weak.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935343#Comment_117935343

If you read the rest of that exact sentence, you will see that I explicitly said I didn't equate anyone to Nazis. I was equating gestures being intrinsically linked to movements/beliefs.

"In much the same way I wouldn't support an anti cancer initiative if they garnered publicity by doing Nazi salutes, that doesn't mean I am pro cancer or do I think everyone doing what they think is a good thing is a Nazi"

It's abundantly clear.

Why? Why would you try to say I am calling anyone a Nazi? The sentence you claim proves that I was comparing anyone to Nazis ends with "doesn't mean I'm pro cancer or do I think everyone doing what they think is a good thing is a Nazi"

Yet my argument is weak? Your argument falls apart if you read the rest of the sentence.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935926#Comment_117935926

I never said you equated them, I said you compared them - look the two words up, they mean different things.

Your whole point hinges on trying to compare and imply there is some sort of similarity ('in much the same way') to disagreeing with the ideas of BLM and disagreeing with with one of the vilest groups in history that committed genocide on millions.

There is nothing noble or understandable about booing a peaceful anti-racism protest for any reason, especially made up reasons scum have concocted in the heads as justification. For example, taking a knee is in no way as intrinsically linked to BLM as that salute was to the Nazi's - it is a completely manufactured excuse that you are tying yourself in knots to justify, now lowering yourself to Godwin's Law.

Ah I see. You are continuing the line of taking the knee isn't intrinsically linked to BLM.

I disagree. It definitely is.

I haven't tied myself in knots. It's funny that you think I have. I've been consistent in my opinion and belief and haven't pivoted.

I didn't compare Nazis to BLM, apart from mentioning that I wouldn't support a group which I believed used a gesture associated with either of them. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939030#Comment_117939030

It still is an interesting take to be siding with people booing anti-racism gestures just because of some elements within an anti-racism movement who behave ina unacceptable manner.

Be kinda like siding with people who think women shouldn't call for more convictions in sex assault cases because there are some women who have made false accusations against some men. It's selectively dismissing the clear and obvious argument because of a tiny minority of participants. Which seems odd, to me anyway at least.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939257#Comment_117939257

Its actually no way similar.

Let's go back to what I actually said.

I would prefer that an anti racism initiative didn't use the same gesture that was used by BLM because I can't get behind an initiative that uses a gesture that, intentionally or not, many people associate with BLM.

I do understand and have no issue with people voicing their displeasure at that gesture being used.

But tell me again how that makes me like a sexual assault apologist....

Man, it's getting more and more obscure.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939569#Comment_117939569

You are ignoring two experiences of racism being experienced by people (black people at the hands of police and footballers) and rather than supporting their call for change, you are lending your voice to those who say they shouldn't be protesting in a particular way.

You are not just abstaining from supporting the calls for action on racism, you are being active in denigrating those calling for that action.

'Sexual assault apologist' are your words, not mine, but interesting you took that from the analogy while thinking your position is entirely correct with respect to the booing of those taking the knee. You have been adamant that you are not a racist because you don't have an issue with some booing an anti-racism gesture, but you think that doing similar in the example outlined above would indicate someone is a sexual assault apologist.

You then must either understand why people have an issue with your position, or don't actually think the implication is someone is a sexual assault apologist for behaving as I outlined.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939893#Comment_117939893

I'm ignoring nothing.

Racism is real and racism is a problem.

I am actively calling for action against racism. I'm simply stating that the current method is divisive and counter productive.

And I was being trite in using the words "sexual assault apologist" by holding you to the same standard of accusations that were levelled at me previously as a racist apologist. I thought that was clear and obvious but I gladly retract it if you thought there was any sincerity in my accusation.

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940139#Comment_117940139

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940139#Comment_117940139

How divisive is it really? it was an issue for two friendly matches, it faded pretty quickly during the euros. There has been no reported problems so far in the Premier League. All the teams whose supporters have booed taking the knee have a racist element in their fanbase. The English supporters definitely have pervious, as have Millwall, Poland and Hungary - who has just been handed a stadium ban for racism.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930994#Comment_117930994

BLM adopted the stance, not the other way around.

It's a bit like being against the sanskit symbol for prosperity because it was used by the Nazis.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940795#Comment_117940795

That's kinda my point.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940820#Comment_117940820

You come across as being against the stance though when you're actually against the organisation that appropriated it.

I get the impression you wouldn't care one way or the other if BLM had never gotten involved.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939030#Comment_117939030

You are obviously struggling hard with the English language if you still can't understand what the word 'compare' means so we might as well park that there.

It isn't intrinsically linked at all, given your comments it is clear that I've been at many more anti-racism BLM movement related protests than you and the only time I ever saw taking the knee was immediately after the murder of George Floyd and it was to kneel for the amount of time that murderer knelt on the neck of Floyd - it wasn't kneeing itself being a sign of protest (like it had been in sport for several years beforehand and continues to be). It is nothing like an 'intrinsic' link like a Nazi salute or whatever other nonsense example you've concocted in your head as an excuse.

With your approach there is no way to ever have an anti-racism protest that you didn't understand someone 'booing' - the protests lead by MLK or even the bus protest related to Rosa Parks would not have taken place because they were deemed as extremely 'divisive' at the time, with very similar types of excuses being made as you are now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117942516#Comment_117942516

I'm not struggling with anything. But I agree, let's park that there.

I know for a fact that many people intrinsically link the kneeling with the BLM protests of last year due to the media coverage and the intentionally provocative imagery linking the two.

It's exceptionally more linked due to the players taking the knee explicitly for that movement and then pivoting the meaning to not encompass BLM although it being visually identical.

It's a nonsense to say that people wouldn't immediately link the two.

You are right though, I've never been to a BLM related protest. I wouldn't ever go. If what you are saying is true and taking the knee wasn't a focal point, then you'd have to question why the media portrayed it otherwise.

You can disagree if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that by simply using a different gesture, it would have been so much more unifying.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117942613#Comment_117942613

You once again ignore the point that I've made again and again - history has shown us over and over that people will always find a reason to find anti-racism protests 'divisive'. From civil rights protests to the recent protests in the NFL - there is never a 'right' way. You're naïve or delusional to think that this time would be different.

Do you similarly 'understand' those who booed and counterprotested the protests MLK led?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117942844#Comment_117942844

I don't think anyone would have an issue with the anti-racism, pointing to the Respect badge thing that Lewandowski and Alonso have done.

TomSweeney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939569#Comment_117939569

Exactly, it's funny how all these "racists" that are against the BLM gesture aren't against "Kick it out", or the players embracing for a minute's silence, funny the way they don't boo that ...

or the lads that stood whilst pointing to their RESPECT badges during Euro 2020 ... no one booed them ...

edit @Fandymo beat me to it ...

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944491#Comment_117944491

There's been gestures, such as the respect badge in football for years. And they've largely gotten little attention and are easily ignored.

But as soon as there was a gesture which this could not happen with, the booing started. That for me is the significant thing, I personally don't buy the narrative that a lot of people support the calls for anti-racism but have an issue solely with the BLM movement because that in itself has arisen out of a communities continued experience of being treated differently because of their race.

If people truly supported anti-racism intent, they wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the entire BLM movement.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944966#Comment_117944966

Last season in the NFL fans booed a moment of silence to highlight anti-racism before a game. They also booed players taking a knee before the anthem, after originally whining that their issue was taking a knee during the anthem and the disrespect they claimed it showed.

As Tell Me How pointed out already, they're fine with gestures when they can be easily ignored, like a badge, but when they are in a form that is in their face they can never handle it and always find an excuse why it is 'wrong'. It is amazing how many of these same people are so quick to dismiss the experiences of discrimination felt by minority groups and that they should 'get on with it' that 'things aren't as bad as they were' yet cant stop whining about being inconvenienced by a few seconds of a peaceful protest.

Again, there are so many posters here who are supporting or 'understand' the booers who also claimed they'd have no problem with the anti racism protests last summer if they were 100% peaceful - suddenly there is a form of 100% peaceful protest now and they've found another excuse to be against it. It is obvious to all what their real issue is.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945698#Comment_117945698

How is pointing to a badge "easier to ignore" than taking a knee. They both take the same amount of time before a game. Ref blows his whistle, players currently point or kneel, blows it again, game is ready to start.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945997#Comment_117945997

The respect badge has nothing to do with the broader issues of racism and inequality that the players have repeatedly clearly articulated they are protesting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945933#Comment_117945933

We get it chief, everyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist.

Cool.