Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Perseverance The Second

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059380#Comment_118059380

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11748/12221923/ivan-toney-explains-why-brentford-players-wont-take-a-knee-we-are-being-used-as-puppets

Ivan Toney is an example of someone who ultimately recognises that it is a meaningless corporate endorsed gesture. The likes of UEFA are very happy to allow countries with significant racist issues such as Hungary to keep participating in tournaments so long as they give eyeballs to advertisers, and put some useless gestures on banners.

Ultimately, Action always speaks louder than words.

Similar to how the Rainbow Laces mean nothing when Theocratic Monarchies that behead homosexuals are allowed to plaster advertisements across football matches.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059380#Comment_118059380

Those players don't stand on the pitch booing though do they.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059380#Comment_118059380

You're the one who brought James McClean into it, who has a fundamental issue with the explicit remembrance that the poppy is commemorating.

The optional bit of the gesture eventually becomes mandatory putting people who would like to remember in a different way in a difficult position. Or people who are on opposite sides of the fence in a difficult position. For example James McClean.

Agree or disagree with his stance, at least he can coherently explains his position based on the clear stated aim of the poppy rather than ridiculous mental gymnastics that many booers and their apologists try to explain away why they are so triggered by a peaceful anti-racism protest.

No one is saying people cant disagree with taking the knee - we're saying don't boo or heckle a peaceful anti-racism protest. James McClean fundamentally disagrees with what the poppy represents but I've never seen him boo a poppy laying ceremony.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059424#Comment_118059424

If everything had an easy fix the world would be a lot simpler. They don't.

We have plenty examples of societal views changing over time and a lot of why this happens is because in the intervening period activists of various positions of influence draw attention to the topic. Ireland voted to ban both abortion and to not allow divorce and then to allow both abortion and divorce within probably all of our lifetimes. Those changes came about because of the conversation in the intervening periods.

Players/squads deciding to stop taking the knee isn't the flex you think it is when they use the opportunity to point out the need for meaningful change. They are able to point to that need through by saying that more action is needed. This is the natural progression of the protest and it stopping in this way is much more meaningful than it fading out. In saying this, Brentford, or Zaha or whoever else is says more action is needed, they are adding to that argument which will ultimately bring about action to achieve what they say is needed.

You're, and others, dismissal of the taking the knee protest would carry a lot more weight if you were suggesting meaningful things to combat racism instead of trying to deny it's existence as Fandymo has spent the last couple of days doing or the nonsense MisterAnarchy went on with in saying that there was a disparity between the people who support taking the knee and those who never played football in their life. A message blown out of the water with the evidence of the support for the gesture from within the England camp aside from it failing to make sense on even a basic level.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059695#Comment_118059695

But as I’ve said numerous times, players and clubs COULD take action that would force social media companies (where most racial abuse comes from these days) to change. They won’t though, as they advertise on these SM platforms and are worried about losing a few quid. Ultimately they see money as more important than bringing racial abuse to an end.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062040#Comment_118062040

And like the numerous times before this point is pure whataboutery.

Sure they could do more but this is at least a first step, far more than any of the booers or their apologists are doing for the anti-racism cause.

Richard Hillman

https://twitter.com/ReutersSports/status/1452953210419884038?t=42v5xGyLNeXIpVzpWvbJNA&s=19

Cricketer was told he had to take a knee before a game. Now he is being frozen out by the association and tarred a racist by the media.

Now it has gotten to a stage where it is not voluntary. It cannot be construed as "Taking the knee" it is "bending the knee" when it is not voluntary.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078139#Comment_118078139

Same with England, they asked if they could wear anti-racism t-shirts rather than take a knee and were told no.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078139#Comment_118078139

Have you ever posted complaining about NFL players being frozen out for protesting?

(I disagree with this approach from the association - no one should be forced to protest though people are entitled to make their own assessment of those who refuse to join their team mates in a peaceful anti-racism protest)

Richard Hillman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081018#Comment_118081018

Yes. I am a keen follower of the NFL. Colin Kaepernick was offered a contract by the 49ers and turned it down, even after being dropped for poor performances. Was allegedly offered a contract at another franchise (Broncos) and turned it down. Was offered a try out at the Baltimore Ravens but his girlfriend (who has been the root of the problem btw) insulted the owner and they rescinded the offer. He was offered a designated workout by multiple NFL teams and didn't show up, he opted to have his own workout down the road.

If Colin Kaepernick had have never knelt before a game. He would have fallen out of the league a couple of years later, he has instead made a lot more money as an activist instead.

maik3n

The cricketer mentioned earlier has now apologised for his stance and will be taking the knee after all.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cricket/south-africa-cricketer-quinton-de-kock-apologises-after-refusing-to-take-the-knee-40992393.html

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085137#Comment_118085137

Its farcical that he has to backtrack and agree to a supposedly voluntary gesture.

He only agreed to do it as the Mumbai Indians were threatening to release him.

So much for understanding and freedom of rights.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078139#Comment_118078139

Same thing happened Kaepernick for not standing for the anthem.

The acting President of the US at the time demanded he be fired and sent the Vice President on a PR exercise to demonstrate the subservience expected to a piece of cloth.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085223#Comment_118085223

Yeah? How do you know? Did he text you and tell you? Have you a link?

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085302#Comment_118085302

That doesn't make what is happening here ok. CK was treated disgracefully, and what a big test for the American rightwing media to see if they practiced what they preached, a test they failed big time. I don't recall anyone who'd be considered on the right their and well known coming out against what happened.

All this current case is shows that taking the knee isn't really voluntary for many, and many are doing it as they know the backlash will be immense if they don't.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085315#Comment_118085315

Ah now....

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085649#Comment_118085649

Sorry, is it against the rules to ask for evidence to support a post suggesting definitive reasons why someone did something?

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085223#Comment_118085223

Maybe he thought about it and realized that a white South African, especially one with an Afrikaans surname, refusing to take part in a simple anti-racism gesture probably wasn't a good idea. Would bring back a lot of nasty memories and a lot of people would jump to an obvious conclusion. Not saying they'd be right but it would be a very understandable leap.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085759#Comment_118085759

Not even a little bit.

I just thought that the story spoke for itself and it was quite obvious.

But sure knock yourself out.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085816#Comment_118085816

I just thought that the story spoke for itself and it was quite obvious.

I knew that without you telling me.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081018#Comment_118081018

NFL isn't something I follow, bar the Superbowl, so I've no idea what or how that organisation works or who was frozen out.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085873#Comment_118085873

FFS.

Incredible to be such a vocal participant in a conversation about taking the knee and booing it in sporting environments and to have such ignorance on the central advocates of this whole movement and conversation.

And actually admitting to this fact. You literally just told us you don't know what you are talking about.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085910#Comment_118085910

This thread was started around the time of the Euros and was about FOOTBALLERS taking the knee.

THE OP: I'm not really sure if this belongs more in the Soccer forum or elsewhere but as this has been happening recently as fans have returned to stadiums I'll place it here. It happened at the England game last week and at the Ireland game tonight. Listening to commentary it's generally describing this as outright racism from soccer supporters, but is it that simple? Others have been kinder to them describing it as push back against BLM and the like

Football has had long problems with racism but did genuinely seem to be getting on top of it up until maybe two three years ago. Where do they go from here do you think? Football will have to castigate its own supporters or drop the knee protest. I suspect that it's the latter that will happen.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082189#Comment_118082189

Does yes mean you posted that you were against the treatment of Kaepernick, like you did about this cricketer? Your post doesn't seem that way given that it has a very anti-Kaepernick slant in making excuses for his treatment and several elements are just wrong.

Broncos were in for a trade for Kaepernick in the 2016 offseason before he began his protest. To complete that move they wanted him to take a $7 million dollar pay cut - there is barely anyone in the world that would have taken that cut. John Elway was never bringing him in after he began protesting, he wrote and released a letter endorsing a conservative supreme court nominee on Broncos letterhead (keep politics out of sport my arse).

The offseason after the protest began Kaepernick was still under contract with the 49ers but they had break clause and they told him they were going to exercise it - they did the opposite of offering him a new deal.

Finally that workout was an obvious PR play by the NFL - they had ridiculous waiver language that could impact any cases he could potentially bring against the NFL in the future and they refused for him to have his own videographers or any independent media attend.

As a keen follower of the NFL, I am very surprised you believe Kaepernick wasn't a better player than the absolute dregs that have and still play or backup the QB position in the league since he has been locked out. He might not have been a starter but a Kaepernick without the protest baggage would be still in the league today.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085424#Comment_118085424

Who is saying what is happening here is ok? The only hypocritical ones are those who vilified those who were locked out because of protesting or forced not to protest in the past and are now treating these people who are refusing to protest as some kind of martyrs who have been wronged.

There are minimal if any posters (I don't remember any) who have demanded that everyone should be forced to protest. Claiming such is going down the strawman route, as it is an easier argument to make than the discussion that the is the core of the thread - that people should show respect for the peaceful anti-racism protest even if they disagree with it or the form it takes.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085424#Comment_118085424

It's clear, even from this thread there are opposing views on the topic and its implementation and that is also evident across society as we see every time there is a large protest. So, is it really likely that absolutely all sports people would be on the same page? No one suggested that they were.

Aside from that, any significant societal development that we identify as such happened as a consequence of advocacy. If everyone had been on the same page, there wouldn't have been a need for such advocacy as there would have been no resistance to things working as everyone wanted.

But whether it was women getting the right to vote, the desegregation of schools, the right for people of the same sex to marry each other or any other significant cause you care to mention, it came about because some people stood up and raised their voice against others who wanted things to stay as they are.

If having everyone on exactly the same page before any significant act or governance was to be implemented was and always had been a requirement, the world would look like a very different place.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085928#Comment_118085928

It is ignorance to not understand the history of a peaceful anti-racism protest that people are choosing to boo or choosing to defend the booers.

It is willful ignorance to stick your hands over your ears or eyes when people point out that history.

Many here on the side of the booers went from the former to the latter a long time ago.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118086175#Comment_118086175

Cool.