Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

jakiah

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Hey it's better than listening to vuvuzelas

Ironically, if this was a grassroots movement started on the terraces by actual football fans it would be a lot more palatable.

Tacitus Kilgore

jakiah wrote: »

Ironically, if this was a grassroots movement started on the terraces by actual football fans it would be a lot more palatable.

Yeah, but the vuvuzela stuff was started off by Big Vuvuzela, they made an absolute killing off it. The football fans just blew hot air as usual tbh.

TheValeyard

Booing the knee is stupid and bit thuggish.


Still taking the knee a year later seems seems like some sort of political tokenism.

When are we going to have a minute to take a knee, bow, raised fist for Palestine, Hong Kong, Myanmar or Uyghurs?

Tacitus Kilgore

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Ah here they all are, all the lads, outing themselves as usual.. Sometimes it seems like there are loads of them on boards, in fact there's only about 49-50 of them


none of em are racists though, of course not.

It would serve you better to directly accuse people of racism instead of throwing out vague accusations.

Is not supporting people taking the knee racist?

Is opposing the BLM organisation/movement racist?

At least have the courage of your convictions to tackle racists head on rather than making snide generalisations.

jakiah

TheValeyard wrote: »

Booing the knee is stupid and bit thuggish.


Still taking the knee a year later seems seems like some sort of political tokenism.

When are we going to have a minute to take a knee, bow, raised fist for Palestine, Hong Kong, Myanmar or Uyghurs?

Protests to support Hong Kong or the Uighirs will never be sanctioned lest it affect Chinese money coming into the game. Approved messages only.

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

I am using slavery, colonialism together.

Why? They're entirely different concepts.

So it wasn't slavery if it wasn't been done in Europe....
At least you can admit European colonialism is abhorrent.

All colonialism was abhorrent. You do realise that other civilisations engaged in colonialism? It was just that the Europeans were the most successful in doing so.

You are also very purposefully segmenting west Europe from the rest for a reason I would suggest..

Nope. It's obvious enough. The perception of Europe has shifted due to those countries later invited into the EU. Western Europe has been pursuing a stance against racism for decades. Eastern Europe, on the other hand, hasn't. (Southern Europe [Mediterranean countries, like Italy/Spain] tend to be far more inclined to tolerate racism). I prefer to deal with realities.

There are massive divides along racial lines in a lot of places in Europe, Paris is one of the worst examples.

Of course there is... In any nation where there is one racial group that exists predominately over others, there will be degrees of racism. That's basic human nature. We are a species that is essentially still tribal.

Why is Paris one of the worst examples? Have you considered the behavior of African/Algerians in France, and how that affected the views of French people? Oh, sure, I agree, that many French people have racist views coming from their colonial past, and the violence that came with Algeria. However, there are also the problems with drugs/crime from African groups, and other issues...

The problem with your view is that there is no responsibility extended beyond white people. You don't want to consider the behavior of racial groups in the host nation, and how that will affect the overall perception of the native population.

Just because (west) Europe isn't perceived as being as racist as the US in general now....it's a fairly low bar.

Europe, is by far, the fairest area in the world. the US is and has always been a mess. Africa is extremely racist towards anyone not of a particular tribal background, and also racist towards Asians. Asia is also extremely racist, as is Russia.

Where is this nation or continent that you consider Europe should be taking advice from? Where is this wonderful place where racism does not exist, or has been handled better than in Western European nations?

jmayo

AdrianG08 wrote: »

It's all a PR exercise at this stage. John Barnes articulates it best. Sky had him on a while back and applauded sky for their gesture but then proceeded to fillet them about how it was lip service.

Philanthropy and social justice causes are the new form of marketing pretty much, the likes of Sky pleading with people to 'kick it out' and 'we're all in' just smacks of token gestures.

Actually think it's better to let these racist morons be heard in public, better to hear them express themselves as fools then to have them contain it in silence as be presumed to be respectable.

Social media is a cesspit too, players want to be in a bubble of positivity. No excuse for racially abusing someone online, it's vile but these players want to flog their wares on it in peace that's the issue.

We are hearing non racial stuff, players crying over their mental health suffering because some lads in their bedrooms criticised their performance over zealously, good Lord. Get off social media if you cannot hack it. But they won't do that as they prefer to get paid 25k per Twitter post, and ideally would prefer to do it without the hassle.

Look at Tubridy, quit Twitter because of dogs abuse he gets. Until people agree to 'be kind to each other' in other words, blow smoke up his hole, he won't be back. That's the thin skin age we live in.

This is it in spades.
A lot of players, clubs, the FAs, the sponsors are doing it for corporate reasons and some probably couldn't give a flying fook about racism.
It is a sop, it is optics to make it look like they care.

The likes of FAs, FIFA and UEFA love this because they can say look what we are doing allowing all the lads take a knee.
Aren't we great.
While at the same time FIFA give the world cups to the likes of Qatar, Russia or UEFA give major finals to likes of countries where they have huge issues with fans hugely abusing non white players.

Nah that would hit the bottom line too much.

It is similar with clubs, the super league idea shows how much the big guys care about the fans and go back a few decades and you can see how much they really care about players.
And that is not just the big guys, but all of them.

Zaha is right it is meaningless almost box ticking exercise when nothing is being done behind the scenes to really sort out issues.

Yeah it raises awareness for a while and then what ?

And the other thing that has always got my goat about famous people in the public eye is their use of publicity and now laterally social media.
They readily use it to push their profiles, to flog themselves and whatever book/movie/product they are selling, but then start complaining when it doesn't suit them and people bitch about them.

Yes it is not fair or nice that people say nasty things about you on social media, but get off the fooking thing.

I have much less concern about them than some poor kids or their families who are not in the public eye and are getting dogs abuse on social media from scumbags.

Tacitus Kilgore

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Yeah, but the vuvuzela stuff was started off by Big Vuvuzela, they made an absolute killing off it. The football fans just blew hot air as usual tbh.

Ah yes, the Vuvuzela Industrial Complex. Eisenhower tried to warn the world about it.

Christy42

jakiah wrote: »

I disagree with your contention that anyone who opposes x political message being inserted into football automatically opposes the message.

We are going to have to listen to a month of this horse**** now with the Euros, where matchgoing fans who object to the politicisation of football are all branded racists by idiots who have never been anywhere near a football ground.

It will be interesting to see the reaction to the Ukraine team who have a political message put into their jersey. I would also argue any national anthem sung by Scotland/Northern Ireland and Wales should be considered political given the independence movements in each country.

It is some men kneeling down. They still play the match afterwards which seems to be a point lost on many. Any match I have been at I haven't even paid attention to the players during a national anthem.

It is pretty clear that if people and their friends were not subjected to racist abuse then there would be less kneeling so if you want to blame someone blame them. Kneeling is unlikely to stop people from being racist but likewise booing isn't going to stop people from kneeling so there are lot of pointless gestures going on. Someone mentioned thin skin which does seem to describe those who take particular issue at men kneeling down.

Tacitus Kilgore

Deleted User wrote: »

It would serve you better to directly accuse people of racism instead of throwing out vague accusations.

Is not supporting people taking the knee racist?

Is opposing the BLM organisation/movement racist?

At least have the courage of your convictions to tackle racists head on rather than making snide generalisations.

No point, not going to change the minds of racists - I can't directly point out who is one as I'd get banned, plus - it's more fun to let them out themselves by responding to posts that weren't directed at them

Boulevardier

Taking the knee was a good way of making a point about racism, but it is over a year now since the death of George Floyd, and I doubt if there was ever any intention of making the gesture permanent. At this stage, taking the knee is causing needless annoyance to ordinary non-racist supporters and I think it is time to drop it.

extra gravy

jakiah wrote: »

I disagree with your contention that anyone who opposes x political message being inserted into football automatically opposes the message.

What political message? Anti-racism is about equality not politics. The usual suspects here can pretend all they like that they oppose it due to their weird fixation with BLM/Marxism/whatever else they get outraged about. If you oppose an anti-racism message, what does that make you? Let's call a spade a spade.

jakiah

Christy42 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see the reaction to the Ukraine team who have a political message put into their jersey.

Its madness, all of this stuff was explictly banned by UEFA just a few short years ago. Now we have specific policital messaging being given carte blanche. Its a disaster for football.

Larbre34

Ukraine have a flag of their country, its not a political message.

Christy42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Ukraine have a flag of their country, its not a political message.

The borders of their country are currently in dispute by some within their country and another country. It is a political statement. I agree with it but it is as political as don't be racist

jakiah

extra gravy wrote: »

What political message? Anti-racism is about equality not politics. The usual suspects here can pretend all they like that they oppose it due to their weird fixation with BLM/Marxism/whatever else they get outraged about. If you oppose an anti-racism message, what does that make you? Let's call a spade a spade.

BLM is a politcal movement. Is kneeling in support of BLM or not? They literally had 'Black Lives Matter' on shirts, banners in stadiums and on TV screens last year, but now we are to believe its nothing to do with the Black Lives Matter political movement, its a generic 'racism bad' protest. Altough we already had this at every football game already.

I think its a bit late to be pretending this is non-political.

Larbre34

Boulevardier wrote: »

Taking the knee was a good way of making a point about racism, but it is over a year now since the death of George Floyd, and I doubt if there was ever any intention of making the gesture permanent. At this stage, taking the knee is causing needless annoyance to ordinary non-racist supporters and I think it is time to drop it.

100% this.

It was always a mealy mouthed gesture from a load of well paid professionals who would be far better off doing something practical and impactful with their financial resources rather engaging in the tokenism we see so much of. It is massively embarrassing to everyone at this stage.

LuckyLloyd

The more they boo the more you’re highlighting the very issue. Keep kneeling.

Danzy

extra gravy wrote: »

What political message? Anti-racism is about equality not politics. The usual suspects here can pretend all they like that they oppose it due to their weird fixation with BLM/Marxism/whatever else they get outraged about. If you oppose an anti-racism message, what does that make you? Let's call a spade a spade.

Off topic or wrong thread.

I believe there are parallels with the poppy movement, where footballers are vilified if they don't willingly participate. There is an element of coercion involved, latching on to an American cause has more than an element of self-congratulation to the neutral observer. If this trite ritual becomes a permanent part of discourse then fans are going to switch off in droves.

Larbre34

Christy42 wrote: »

The borders of their country are currently in dispute by some within their country and another country. It is a political statement. I agree with it but it is as political as don't be racist

Not for Ukranians. Its just their Country, a bit of it annexed by a powerful foreign aggressor, because the West is too weak to help them do anything about it. Its not a disputed border, Crimea isn't even contiguous with Russia ffs, its just illegal foreign occupation.

One tends to sympathise.

VertBlue

It's not even about George Floyd at this stage, it has gone beyond that. These players are receiving racial abuse on a daily basis, never mind the continued racial injustices we see almost daily in society also. They should take the knee for as long as they see necessary

jakiah

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not for Ukranians. Its just their Country, a bit of it annexed by a powerful foreign aggressor, because the West is too weak to help them do anything about it. Its not a disputed border, Crimea isn't even contiguous with Russia ffs, its just illegal foreign occupation.

One tends to sympathise.

Some people will sympathise, others wont, and major aggro will be caused all round. For what? Why is football to be used as a political propaganda platform all of a sudden? How is this good for football?

extra gravy

extra gravy wrote: »

What political message? Anti-racism is about equality not politics. The usual suspects here can pretend all they like that they oppose it due to their weird fixation with BLM/Marxism/whatever else they get outraged about. If you oppose an anti-racism message, what does that make you? Let's call a spade a spade.

The anti racists here have a very specific view on racism. It’s something done by all the whites to all the blacks. Particularly American blacks. Racism experienced by Irish players doesn’t exist because white privilege.

This is fad and fashion not morality. The worst thing about the US isn’t it’s internal politics but it’s external politics, same with the U.K. look at Yemen. Look at the slave trade restarting in Libya caused by British involvement in that country. Protest that and you are toast. The architects of these wars are sitting pretty.

If your concern is with black Americans ( and nobody would bat an eyelid if a black person was killed by white Brazilian police) and not the victims of British and American bombs then this is merely American supremacism. American lives matter.

If the players want to protest then let them protest whatever they want, but that is not within the rules of the FA, FIFA, or UEFA. Or the IOC.

Larbre34

VertBlue wrote: »

It's not even about George Floyd at this stage, it has gone beyond that. These players are receiving racial abuse on a daily basis, never mind the continued racial injustices we see almost daily in society also. They should take the knee for as long as they see necessary

It'll be forever then, won't it? And lets be honest, every day that passes it looks a weaker and more empty gesture, doesn't it?

Strumms

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Should it be brought into to other forms entertainment as well? Before watching a film in the cinema or before the 6 o'clock news?

Absolutly... golfers before they tee off at the first..... ?

We go to the cinema, they turn up the lights and prompt us before the film to take the knee... ? Its ridculous.

In a free society people should have the freedom to do as they wish and express themselves suitably within the boundaries of the LAW... not at the whims and behest of political / social or other groups who seek to control the very mashinations of life for society.... at sporting or social events... whatever... have your cause, champion it, shout about it from the rooftops but dont put a gun to anybodys head expecting buy in and obediance...

Its a democracy as some would do quite well to remember and acknowledge

TefalBrain

It's this picking and choosing of what's acceptable to protest also that is ridiculous. Where are the football stars taking a stand against the treatment of the Uighur Muslims? Why is LeBron James worked up about taking the knee but supporting a regime that is practicing enforced sterilisation, torture and indeed genocide.

Retr0gamer

TomTomTim wrote: »

It's not a reach at all. The leaders of the movement in America are self-admitted Marxists.

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’

Self proclaimed leader of a Marxist organisation that took the name of the blm movement to further her Marxist beliefs. She is charlatan taking the name of a movement against racism to further her own Marxist agenda which has never had any Marxist elements to is. The blm movement isn't an organization.

Can we now stop the Marxist nonsense. It's must american right wing scare tactics dating back to the cold war. The same hypocrites complaining about an Americanized movement are the ones spouting American far right propaganda about Marxism.

Christy42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not for Ukranians. Its just their Country, a bit of it annexed by a powerful foreign aggressor, because the West is too weak to help them do anything about it. Its not a disputed border, Crimea isn't even contiguous with Russia ffs, its just illegal foreign occupation.

One tends to sympathise.

Most borders change due to a powerful foreign aggressor. It is now a disputed border.

I mean I agree Russia is at fault here but I also think racists are at fault and that is apparently a political statement so here we are.

As for George Floyd, it was never just about him. That event was so brazen that it ended up being a matchstick for what went after. People just getting tired of racist abuse being a constant.

VertBlue

VertBlue wrote: »

It's not even about George Floyd at this stage, it has gone beyond that. These players are receiving racial abuse on a daily basis, never mind the continued racial injustices we see almost daily in society also. They should take the knee for as long as they see necessary

Realistically, what do you see changing due to the raising of awareness about racism? (Although I suspect most were already aware of it happening)

Let's see some specifics, as to what will improve? Do you believe that those who are racist will be affected by the taking of the knee? Or is this directed at those who aren't racist?