Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

~Rebel~

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

well, no, you saying that black peoples lives don't matter to you, in the post above, is what makes you a racist.

It's also nuts that so many people only see the message of 'Black lives matter' as being a confrontational "Us Vs Them" statement, like it's solely the Black community's message to the white community. It's not. It's a broad statement to all communities, including the Black community.

Black Lives Matter is just as important a statement in relation to black-on-black crime as it is in relation to police brutality, or common prejudice or racism.

Rothko

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Sure, Jan

kildare lad

kildare lad wrote: »

I said if it doesn't matter to them , why should it matter to me . Which given the example I gave seems logical .

It was crystal clear you were referring to the movement.

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

logical to a racist maybe.

This level of discourse adds nothing to the discussion which is a shame. The irony being that the dilution of the word racist is doing nothing but exacerbate the problem and inevitably will lead to actual racism being ignored.

jakiah

Deleted User wrote: »

I was responding to Billy mays.

There's no point in talking to you about these issues.

Have you taken the Boccer Bailey fallacy into account there

Salvation Tambourine

I'm a little fed up with the kneeling but it doesn't really bother me, I'd prefer if they didn't but don't care that they do. I'd never boo it, just like I'd never boo a minutes silence even if it was for someone I very much disliked.

Can I ask those who are very pro kneeling. Ignoring the booing as that is a recent thing (Millwall game a few months ago aside). How would you feel if they stopped kneeling at the start of next season? How would that affect you?

JimmyVik

I dont see the harm in someone kneeling down before a game if they want.
But what does bending the knee achieve politically?
Nothing.
Its just virtue signalling. More the fear of drawing the wrath of virtue signalers actually.
Sad to see that now the virtuous attack people who dont do something they want them to do.
Where does it end. Are player going to be expected to be puppets for some other cause, once this one is forgotten about.

paw patrol

JimmyVik wrote: »

I dont see the harm in someone kneeling down before a game if they want.
But what does bending the knee achieve politically?
Nothing.
Its just virtue signalling.
Sad to see that now the virtuous attack people who dont do something they want them to do.
Where does it end. Are player going to be expected to be puppets for some other cause, once this one is forgotten about.

should we not mock virtue signaling?

JimmyVik

paw patrol wrote: »

should we not mock virtue signaling?

Id like to see a player these days try that

I see sheep

JimmyVik wrote: »

I dont see the harm in someone kneeling down before a game if they want.
But what does bending the knee achieve politically?
Nothing.
Its just virtue signalling. More the fear of drawing the wrath of virtue signalers actually.
Sad to see that now the virtuous attack people who dont do something they want them to do.
Where does it end. Are player going to be expected to be puppets for some other cause, once this one is forgotten about.

What do you mean by the bit in bold?

Tell me how

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

But as pointed out several times now, there was already a anti-racism programme in football called Kick-it-out that nobody seemed to have any issue with, yet the kneeling thing now seems to be the only form of acceptable anti-racism narrative. Why? What was wrong with kick-it-out? Loads of players doing ads saying no to racism. You may argue they had little impact but taking a knee will have little impact either and if anything seems to be having the opposite effect.

Whilst I in no-way condone what happened to Ian Wright, it is also hard to look past Ian Wright making fun of Roy keane's Irish accent on live television. I cannot recall ever seeing anyone on television doing that before. Then again, it would re-enforce the type of Double-Standards I experienced living in the UK.

Because those things had become something that people could tune out from, or switch the channel to.

For me, the kneeling is something which has brought about the conversation more publicly again and this is what it was intended to do. An act to draw attention to something which does not make people discuss that thing more is a wasted exercise.

I've lived in England, currently living in America in a large multi-national house. There is a massive difference between imitating accents between friends and actually being racist towards one another. Trying to conflate the 2 is close to absolving people from the latter imo.

Ash.J.Williams

i've a great idea

"win to defeat racisim" in which the irish team win instead of other gestures

TomTomTim

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It's also nuts that so many people only see the message of 'Black lives matter' as being a confrontational "Us Vs Them" statement, like it's solely the Black community's message to the white community. It's not. It's a broad statement to all communities, including the Black community.

Black Lives Matter is just as important a statement in relation to black-on-black crime as it is in relation to police brutality, or common prejudice or racism.

The movement has made it so. You're taking some sanitized version of it and pretending that it represents the whole, when it doesn't. If you asked some of these activists what the root of the problem was, they'd say white racism first, brutality second. Everything and anything is being called "white supremacy" in America at the minute, by the very types who support BLM. They've made it an Us v Them situation, not those who react to it.

The second part is also disingenuous, your adding your own qualities to a movement that don't exist. The leadership don't talk about the problem of black on black crime, they care little about it. Focusing on it, only serves to devalue the narrative that it's all the white mans fault.

Taking the knee emphasises the divisions among people. I would prefer that we focus on things that unify people.

Football, without this nonsense, is the best leveller. 11 players pulling in the same direction, cheered on by fans who don't care about their race. Is there anything more "anti-racist" than that? I don't think so.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking the knee emphasises the divisions among people. I would prefer that we focus on things that unify people.

Football, without this nonsense, is the best leveller. 11 players pulling in the same direction, cheered on by fans who don't care about their race. Is there anything more "anti-racist" than that? I don't think so.

Yeah that all sounds wonderful but it ignores the reality of people in the stands making monkey noises at some players and people online doing the same and much worse because the team lost.

Taking the knee has lost its gleam with the unwashed.


Time for the hokey pokey.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It's also nuts that so many people only see the message of 'Black lives matter' as being a confrontational "Us Vs Them" statement, like it's solely the Black community's message to the white community. It's not. It's a broad statement to all communities, including the Black community.

Black Lives Matter is just as important a statement in relation to black-on-black crime as it is in relation to police brutality, or common prejudice or racism.

Except that it isn't. The protests and rhetoric that came out of the US reinforced the impression of an "Us vs Them" attitude, where activists (regardless of their own racial types) themselves implemented segregation, and reinforced racial stereotyping. The Autonomous zones showed that very well, where Black people themselves pushed many white people including activists, to the outside. Just as you could see from the militant Black Pride groups, who were associated with BLM, who often expressed racist ideas towards white people.

And then, there's the aspect of other racial groups, and racism. Racism by Black people against Asians is an big issue throughout the US, and apparently has made it's way into Europe too (if you're going to follow the claims of racism being widespread in Europe, you should acknowledge Black led racism too). And yet, the BLM activists haven't sought to highlight racism directed at other racist groups, because it is about Black people... not racism in general.

As for Black on Black crime, there's been little attempt to deal with the internal aspects of Black culture, instead, it's constantly passed off to external sources, ie. White people and systematic racism. Oh, sure, a very few people have spoken about Black on Black crime, but the vast majority of rhetoric coming from BLM and other activists, dodges that whole area.

Sadler Peak

They got gob****es and corporations to give them millions of dollar then go out and buy a couple of million dollar homes. I have to respect the balls on them to do that.

Fools and their money ............

Shebean

English soccer fans have a reputation all over the world. It's not a good one.
If the players want to show support for something it should be respected even if some disagree with it.
Can we boo players who wear the poppy? We shouldn't.

Ahwell

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking the knee emphasises the divisions among people. I would prefer that we focus on things that unify people.

The English squad is unified in the decision to take the knee.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking the knee emphasises the divisions among people. I would prefer that we focus on things that unify people.

Football, without this nonsense, is the best leveller. 11 players pulling in the same direction, cheered on by fans who don't care about their race. Is there anything more "anti-racist" than that? I don't think so.

So pretend everything is fine and crack on as usual?

Wow, visionary solution here.

I see sheep

I see sheep wrote: »

So pretend everything is fine and crack on as usual?

Wow, visionary solution here.

It's the Morgan Freeman approach. The best way to tackle racism is to stop talking about it all the time.

Fighting Tao

Jaysus. If people that are watching on the tele are offended by what others do for 30 seconds before a match, go off and make a nice calming cup of camomile tea. If you are at a match and are as likely to be offended, go to the toilet because there is nothing worse than missing a goal while running to the jacks.

Fr D Maugire

Tell me how wrote: »

Because those things had become something that people could tune out from, or switch the channel to.

For me, the kneeling is something which has brought about the conversation more publicly again and this is what it was intended to do. An act to draw attention to something which does not make people discuss that thing more is a wasted exercise.

I've lived in England, currently living in America in a large multi-national house. There is a massive difference between imitating accents between friends and actually being racist towards one another. Trying to conflate the 2 is close to absolving people from the latter imo.

Well that depends on how people perceive things, I have had friends get pissy about innocent comments with no underlying agenda, whilst having no problem with throwing out far more blatant derogatory comments towards me. Unless of course they were playing the victim card?

Do you think Roy Keane would have got away with a comment that could be viewed as even mildly racially offensive on the basis that he was friends with Ian Wright? Slagging between friends in private, maybe....on National television, not a hope.

I really don't see what conversations the kneeling has started or increased. This conversation has been going on for the last 30-40 years. When I went to college in the UK some 25 years ago, coming from the sticks I knew racism was wrong. Anyone who remembers the abuse John Barnes received in his career knows all about racism and it was talked about in magazines, newspapers, shows etc. I would say the conversation around racism has only got louder since then, yet apparently racism is worse than ever in football. So the question is whether the process is counter productive.

is_that_so

I see sheep wrote: »

So pretend everything is fine and crack on as usual?

Wow, visionary solution here.

What is it that the continued gesture is expected to achieve? Some players have questioned its merit and a few clubs have stopped doing it. Does football have any other initiatives?

indioblack

Shebean wrote: »

....... it should be respected even if some disagree with it.
Can we boo players who wear the poppy? We shouldn't.

Good.
Maybe now we'll see an end to those annual threads on Boards.

seamus

is_that_so wrote: »

What is it that the continued gesture is expected to achieve? Some players have questioned its merit and a few clubs have stopped doing it. Does football have any other initiatives?

Racism is a gigantic issue within soccer specifically, to be fair. It's not like they've latched onto some random issue that's not really related, like homelessness or cancer.

Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are.

The fact that players making a statement about racism gets boos from fans at a match, tells you that there's a problem. If it wasn't a problem, they'd get a clap and then everyone would be bored with it and they'd stop doing it.

Tell me how

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I really don't see what conversations the kneeling has started or increased. This conversation has been going on for the last 30-40 years. When I went to college in the UK some 25 years ago, coming from the sticks I knew racism was wrong. Anyone who remembers the abuse John Barnes received in his career knows all about racism and it was talked about in magazines, newspapers, shows etc. I would say the conversation around racism has only got louder since then, yet apparently racism is worse than ever in football. So the question is whether the process is counter productive.

First point in bold, you're literally taking part in one.

Second point in bold, Yes, because it is recognized more and more that it is unacceptable.
No one is saying that racism is worse than ever in football given there were times when teams were proud of not having black players, but that that which exists is unacceptable. It is true to say that with social media, the ability to directly be racist to someone or about someone effectively in public, has increased exponentially than what existed in the past.

Just how do you think this could possibly be counter productive? Are you suggesting that people are more likely to exhibit their racism as a response to such an initiative? If so, then that isn't a bad thing, let them show who they are, it is down to the appropriate authorities to act once they do so.

MrStuffins

is_that_so wrote: »

What is it that the continued gesture is expected to achieve?

Sends an anti-racism message - Check

Keeps the topic of racism in the news - Check

Keeps those on social media platforms, including forums like this one, talking about it - Check

You're partaking in exactly what it's aimed to achieve.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the Morgan Freeman approach. The best way to tackle racism is to stop talking about it all the time.

So the best way to deal with a problem is to pretend it doesn't exist?

Do you feel the same way about poverty as you do with racism?

I've found a group that might be right up your street -

https://www.conservatives.com/join

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the Morgan Freeman approach. The best way to tackle racism is to stop talking about it all the time.

Just as well you're not a doctor

"You have cancer"

- "Uh-oh! What are we going to do about it?"

"We just won't mention it again and it should go away. That'll be €85 please"