Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Shebean

tailorspy wrote: »

Of course not. But when you make EVERYTHING about race then everything becomes about race.

Taking the knee is fine as a gesture but gestures don't achieve much. Real action against racism in the stands should be the primary response. with real consequences for those caught racially abusing players.

It shows empathy, raises attention and engenders discussion. That's the point.

Arghus

seamus wrote: »

Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are.

Quite an ignorant opinion there also, to be fair.

Fr D Maugire

Tell me how wrote: »

First point in bold, you're literally taking part in one.

Second point in bold, Yes, because it is recognized more and more that it is unacceptable.
No one is saying that racism is worse than ever in football given there were times when teams were proud of not having black players, but that that which exists is unacceptable. It is true to say that with social media, the ability to directly be racist to someone or about someone effectively in public, has increased exponentially than what existed in the past.

Just how do you think this could possibly be counter productive? Are you suggesting that people are more likely to exhibit their racism as a response to such an initiative? If so, then that isn't a bad thing, let them show who they are, it is down to the appropriate authorities to act once they do so.

Conversations about racism didn't suddenly start with kneeling, there were numerous threads about this very conversation long before BLM, taking the knee etc. I don't know what age you are, but racism has been considered unacceptable for 30/40 years in UK/Ireland. Still happens though as like anything, it will never be fully stamped out. Do you think bullying in general will ever be eradicated?

How can it be counter productive? Casual racism is a form of bullying, the more the bully see they are getting a response from it, the more they will see it as an effective weapon. As you say, social media has only given them a bigger megaphone. If you stop giving the bully the response they seek, they will eventually get bored. May require a thick skin, but as an Irish person who had plenty of stupid things said to them living in different countries, you just learn to recognise assholes as being assholes.

is_that_so

MrStuffins wrote: »

Sends an anti-racism message - Check

Keeps the topic of racism in the news - Check

Keeps those on social media platforms, including forums like this one, talking about it - Check

You're partaking in exactly what it's aimed to achieve.

So basically, absolutely nothing quantifiable. Clubs in time will stop doing it and the problem will remain.

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

Just because you find fault with the methodology of dealing with a problem does not mean you don't believe the problem exists.

C'mon, you think that those people are booing because they disagree with exactly how the anti-racism message is being put across?

Sure! And when they're on away days smashing up bars, they're actually only redecorating! :rolleyes:

is_that_so

seamus wrote: »

Racism is a gigantic issue within soccer specifically, to be fair. It's not like they've latched onto some random issue that's not really related, like homelessness or cancer.

Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are.

The fact that players making a statement about racism gets boos from fans at a match, tells you that there's a problem. If it wasn't a problem, they'd get a clap and then everyone would be bored with it and they'd stop doing it.

Sure, but it needs to move beyond mere gestures and clubs very actively addressing it by all means possible. It is fast becoming that thing they do before the start of a match, which some people now boo.

I see sheep

I see sheep wrote: »

So the best way to deal with a problem is to pretend it doesn't exist?

Do you feel the same way about poverty as you do with racism?

I've found a group that might be right up your street -

https://www.conservatives.com/join

Poverty is an objective thing. There are metrics for poverty. It's something that is measured and can be agreed by all parties. Very different to a subjective thing like racism. As I said, I defer to Morgan Freeman. He is someone who has lived a long life as a black man in America. I think he knows better than most, having no doubt witnessed genuine racism in his youth.

MrStuffins

is_that_so wrote: »

So basically, absolutely nothing quantifiable.

Not yet, but the ongoing discussion is fostering progress in other areas, like how social media platforms deal with racism and how they will do so going forward. These will have major real-world consequences. That's just one example.

Clubs will stop doing it and the problem will remain.

So there yo have it. A very good reason for them to keep doing it.

is_that_so

MrStuffins wrote: »

Not yet, but the ongoing discussion is fostering progress in other areas, like how social media platforms deal with racism and how they will do so going forward. These will have major real-world consequences. That's just one example.



So there yo have it. A very good reason for them to keep doing it.

A few clubs have already chosen to stop, one or two individual players too, suggesting that they may perceive it to have limited value.

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

I'm neither a fan of soccer or a fan of soccer fans. And yes soccer fans as a whole have a pretty bad rep in terms of how they behave. But making an assumption that they are ALL inherently racist well that's a bit bigoted is it not?

Nobody said they were all racist. I'm a soccer fan and i'm not racist.

Again, are you genuinely saying that those who were booing and continue to boo are just in disagreement with HOW the anti-racism message is out across? There's no way you actually believe that.

MontgomeryClift

MrStuffins wrote: »

Nobody said they were all racist. I'm a soccer fan and i'm not racist.

Uh, oh! This is how it starts....

MrStuffins

is_that_so wrote: »

A few clubs have already chosen to stop, one or two individual players too, suggesting that they may perceive it to have limited value.

Your logic actually dictates that it's of enormous value then if you take into consideration those players and clubs who are still partaking

is_that_so

MrStuffins wrote: »

Your logic actually dictates that it's of enormous value then if you take into consideration those players and clubs who are still partaking

Well if I had stated that it would be true but this is your assumptive leap into the beyond and making unverifiable claims about why they continue to do it. Clubs get no bad press from doing it but are they doing anything more in other areas?

Arghus

I'm sure when Shane Duffy was taking the knee last night he was envisioning the revolutionary Marxist socialist utopia that he wants to bring about.

An awful lot of "Internet brain" on display in this thread. This all feels very boards.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Poverty is an objective thing. There are metrics for poverty. It's something that is measured and can be agreed by all parties. Very different to a subjective thing like racism. As I said, I defer to Morgan Freeman. He is someone who has lived a long life as a black man in America. I think he knows better than most, having no doubt witnessed genuine racism in his youth.

I don't agree that racism is subjective.

Taking one thing Morgan Freeman said about race and making this the cornerstone of your philosophy on it is daft.

He also said about the Republican 'Tea Party' loons when they were criticising Obama -

"What underlines that? Screw the country. We're going to do whatever we do to get this black man outta here."

MrStuffins

is_that_so wrote: »

Well if I had stated that it would be true but this is your leap into the beyond and making unverifiable claims about why they continue to do it. Clubs get no bad press from it but are they doing anything more in other areas?

Why bother asking questions if anything anyone answers with is going to be a "leap"?

Don't be afraid to put forward your own ideas on the subject

MrStuffins

Arghus wrote: »

I'm sure when Shane Duffy was taking the knee last night he was envisioning the revolutionary Marxist socialist utopia that he wants to bring about.

Er......

An awful lot of "Internet brain" on display in this thread. This all feels very boards.

Indeed!

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

I think, and you may disagree, that some British football fans are reacting against a type of protest that has been imported from the US and to the politicisation of sport.

There is absolutely no way you believe this!

Arghus

MrStuffins wrote: »

Er......



Indeed!

Whoosh.

I see sheep

I see sheep wrote: »

I don't agree that racism is subjective.

Taking one thing Morgan Freeman said about race and making this the cornerstone of your philosophy on it is daft.

He also said about the Republican 'Tea Party' loons when they were criticising Obama -

"What underlines that? Screw the country. We're going to do whatever we do to get this black man outta here."

I think his philosophy is the most realistic way of getting rid of society. Unfortunately the real tiny amount of racists are not going to look at bending the knee and think "oh, you know what, maybe I will change my behaviour and attitudes". But if everyone treats each other equally and ignores our skin colours, the world will be much better place.

is_that_so

MrStuffins wrote: »

Why bother asking questions if anything anyone answers with is going to be a "leap"?

Don't be afraid to put forward your own ideas on the subject

Well, you did manage to reword what I was saying as a "logical progression" to whatever you were on about. But anyway some ideas.

More messaging in more ways, harsh treatment of offending fans, wherever they make comments. Options for some re-education on the theme should also be part of that strategy.

Outreach by clubs to much younger people needs to be a huge part of it, directly and through schools. You may not get all the recidivist adults to comply but you can try to persuade a newer generation to understand and behave better.

Here's what Bournemouth said when they stopped.


https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12223075/bournemouth-players-to-stop-taking-a-knee-before-matches

seamus

WTF has Marxism got to do with this.

It's an anti-racism statement.

And no, nobody is saying all football fans are racist, but it's more acceptable amongst them.

When's the last time you heard of fans of tennis, rugby, golf, cricket, etc shouting racist abuse at players from the side of the field?

I'm sure it happens, but it's far rarer. There's an ingrained acceptance of "laddism" in football supporters that allows all sorts of bigotry to go uncorrected.

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

How are you so sure what somebody else believes? What is so unbelievable about it?

C'mon man! You don't believe this. It's rubbish!

If I am to extrapolate your belief, from what you have said and please correct me if I'm wrong -

it is your belief that every one of the fans...........

I'll have to stop you there!

bewareofthedog

seamus wrote: »

WTF has Marxism got to do with this.

It's not very hard, try using your big boy brain.

In conjunction with taking a knee, sky sports displayed this logo for months over televised PL league games



Stadiums and the PL instilled huge banners with the slogan.



Are you going to say taking the knee has no correlation with BLM whatsoever?

BLM a group who among other things support

1) The abolishment for the prison system and any holding facilities
2) The abolishment of the police force
3) The abolishment for the capitalist system

These are goals the main goals they've posted on their official channels, whether it's for crowd sourcing ( where does the money go? ) or on their official social media channels.

So what does Marxism have to do with any of this? Quite a lot actually.

Larbre34

Arghus wrote: »

I'm sure when Shane Duffy was taking the knee last night he was envisioning the revolutionary Marxist socialist utopia that he wants to bring about.

An awful lot of "Internet brain" on display in this thread. This all feels very boards.

Its worse than that, he's doing it like a sheep.

Eamon Dunphy wore a black armband at Millwall in 1971 after Derry Bloody Sunday and phoned around other Irish players in England and the time and asked for support. 'Sorry Eamon, not worth the hassle' was the Universal reply.

James McClean won't wear a poppy during remembrance season for very legitimate reasons having being raised in the Creggan and all that entails. He asked other Irish players about it and the response he got was the same as Dunphy.

I'm not singling out Duffy, but all players playing in England are sheep to this. Its a response to a hashtag, a response to bedwetting PR depts in weakly led British Clubs.

This morning, the 6 Premier League Clubs who backed the Super League, only to feel their testicles retract within 24 hours, were fined 20 million pounds between them. If only the FA / Prem League could act so quickly and punitively against abuse, racism, fascism, gang violence connected to football and social media.

Imagine they had as quickly backed the FCs who opened food banks in their Cities during the pandemic with 20 million pounds, it could have fed every person in need for months!

The whole thing stinks. Its weak, its tokenistic, its a fad, its box ticking.

MrStuffins

bewareofthedog wrote: »

It's not very hard, try using your big boy brain.

Didn't they address all the anti-BLM folks by changing it to "No Room for Racism"?

bewareofthedog

MrStuffins wrote: »

Didn't they address all the anti-BLM folks by changing it to "No Room for Racism"?

As of the last week of PL games those massive banners were still in the stadiums. They can "address" it all they want, they're too cowardly to dismiss the politics involved.

Sadler Peak

Arghus wrote: »

I'm sure when Shane Duffy was taking the knee last night he was envisioning the revolutionary Marxist socialist utopia that he wants to bring about.

An awful lot of "Internet brain" on display in this thread. This all feels very boards.

I'd say he wasn't thinking about racism either. More than likely it was let's just get on with the game.

suicide_circus

seamus wrote: »

WTF has Marxism got to do with this.

It's an anti-racism statement.

And no, nobody is saying all football fans are racist, but it's more acceptable amongst them.

When's the last time you heard of fans of tennis, rugby, golf, cricket, etc shouting racist abuse at players from the side of the field?

I'm sure it happens, but it's far rarer. There's an ingrained acceptance of "laddism" in football supporters that allows all sorts of bigotry to go uncorrected.

Toxic masculinity alert!

Tell me how

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its worse than that, he's doing it like a sheep.

Eamon Dunphy wore a black armband at Millwall in 1971 after Derry Bloody Sunday and phoned around other Irish players in England and the time and asked for support. 'Sorry Eamon, not worth the hassle' was the Universal reply.

James McClean won't wear a poppy during remembrance season for very legitimate reasons having being raised in the Creggan and all that entails. He asked other Irish players about it and the response he got was the same as Dunphy.

I'm not singling out Duffy, but all players playing in England are sheep to this. Its a response to a hashtag, a response to bedwetting PR depts in weakly led British Clubs.

This morning, the 6 Premier League Clubs who backed the Super League, only to feel their testicles retract within 24 hours, were fined 20 million pounds between them. If only the FA / Prem League could act so quickly and punitively against abuse, racism, fascism, gang violence connected to football and social media.

Imagine they had as quickly backed the FCs who opened food banks in their Cities during the pandemic with 20 million pounds, it could have fed every person in need for months!

The whole thing stinks. Its weak, its tokenistic, its a fad, its box ticking.

Your post is an over reaction.
You're suggesting that no topic should be advocated for unless all topics are advocated for in the same way?

We all know that football authorities could stamp out something if they truly wanted to. That is wayyy more likely to happen as an outcome of this particular action and reaction than it would by not kneeling and expecting them to step up.

The current England Manager wrote a public letter in which he very strongly supported the initiative. He wouldn't have done so if this was weak, tokenistic and a fad.