Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

MrStuffins

bewareofthedog wrote: »

As of the last week of PL games those massive banners were still in the stadiums. They can "address" it all they want, they're too cowardly to dismiss the politics involved.

You were talking about Sky Sports though. They changed it.

Let's be honest here, the drum-banging about BLM and Marxism is an extremely thin veil. You don't need a big-boy brain to see that.

seamus

bewareofthedog wrote: »

So what does Marxism have to do with any of this? Quite a lot actually.

Ah I see, it's all a big conspiracy.

"Nothing to see here, just a bunch of commies".

Handy that you can handwave away genuine problems by claiming that it's actually all a subtext for something else.

I'm sure all those millionaires bending down on one knee were thinking, "Yeah, this'll show those capitalists!".

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

Cool. So your approach is to tell someone else what they do or don't believe, and that they cannot believe something that you have decided is "rubbish" and then refuse to state clearly your own belief.

I'm not telling you you don't believe it.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because it's pretty silly.

Are you genuinely saying that the prevailing feeling behind the boos is that the fans don't like the Americanised way of protesting? Again, I have a hard time accepting that anyone would actually believe this.

Tell me how

bewareofthedog wrote: »

It's not very hard, try using your big boy brain.

In conjunction with taking a knee, sky sports displayed this logo for months over televised PL league games



Stadiums and the PL instilled huge banners with the slogan.



Are you going to say taking the knee has no correlation with BLM whatsoever?

BLM a group who among other things support

1) The abolishment for the prison system and any holding facilities
2) The abolishment of the police force
3) The abolishment for the capitalist system

These are goals the main goals they've posted on their official channels, whether it's for crowd sourcing ( where does the money go? ) or on their official social media channels.

So what does Marxism have to do with any of this? Quite a lot actually.

You're deliberately conflating the views of some who are members of official groups versus the vast majority of people who recognize the value and origin of the sentiment.

The phrase and cause came first and was adopted by groups of people rather than groups of people building from small numbers to a groundswell of support.

Two very different paths to where we are but one allows some to dismiss the sentiment from which the original phrase originated and as a consequence to not want to see action to reduce forms of racism.

MrStuffins

Tell me how wrote: »

The phrase and cause came first and was adopted by groups of people rather than groups of people building from small numbers to a groundswell of support.

Two very different paths to where we are but one allows some to dismiss the sentiment from which the original phrase originated and as a consequence to not want to see action to reduce forms of racism.

And thus is created a very thin veil for some to oppose certain ideas but hide their actual motivations.

Strumms

seamus wrote: »

Racism is a gigantic issue within soccer specifically, to be fair. It's not like they've latched onto some random issue that's not really related, like homelessness or cancer.

Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are.

The generalization of the century..

“Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are. ”.

I’d say that statement is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve ever read on boards...

Racism isn’t a gigantic issue in soccer... it’s an issue in and of society, some within society... racism doesn’t stop and begin when somebody puts on a xx football shirt or goes to a stadium... they are racist 100% ....

I’ve gone to hundreds of matches is Dalymount Park, Tolka, Aviva Stadium, , Stade De France, Stadium Of Light, St James Park... the list goes on.. and I don’t recall one racist incident or comment...

Put 60,000 people in a stadium, will some be racist ? I’m sure...yes, there will be criminals, racists, rapists in that significant cross section of society....put 180 people on an Aer Lingus plane to X destination, will there be a racist or two ? possibly ...do we take the knee before we fly ?

The only racist thing I ever experienced and one that I was on the receiving end of was courtesy of an Asian man in a shop in London who thought he’d get cute in the wake of an IRA terrorist attack the night before..on hearing my accent. Can’t remember the comments exactly but it was along the lines of ..“ great job in Canary Wharf Irish , you have a banging weekend now !” Is there a problem of racism amongst the Asian / London community ?

Tell me how

Strumms wrote: »

The generalization of the century..

“Soccer fans as a group are about the most ignorant there are. ”.

I’d say that statement is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve ever read on boards...

Racism isn’t a gigantic issue in soccer... it’s an issue in and of society, some within society... racism doesn’t stop and begin when somebody puts on a xx football shirt or goes to a stadium... they are racist 100% ....

I’ve gone to hundreds of matches is Dalymount Park, Tolka, Aviva Stadium, , Stade De France, Stadium Of Light, St James Park... the list goes on.. and I don’t recall one racist incident or comment...

Put 60,000 people in a stadium, will some be racist ? I’m sure...yes, there will be criminals, racists, rapists in that significant cross section of society....put 180 people on an Aer Lingus plane to X destination, will there be a racist or two ? possibly ...do we take the knee before we fly ?

The only racist thing I ever experienced and one that I was on the receiving end of was courtesy of an Asian man in a shop in London who thought he’d get cute in the wake of an IRA terrorist attack the night before..on hearing my accent. Can’t remember the comments exactly but it was along the lines of ..“ great job in Canary Wharf Irish , you have a banging weekend now !” Is there a problem of racism amongst the Asian / London community ?

The 'I don't recall' is interesting phrasing.

bewareofthedog

MrStuffins wrote: »

And thus is created a very thin veil for some to oppose certain ideas but hide their actual motivations.

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

MrStuffins

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

Kick It Out defaced a statue of Churchill? What?

Tell me how

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

Yes. Because those football fans don't understand or accept why it might be that some people are venerated when they implemented quite racist practices.

There's no doubt that the attacking of statues like Churchill or Colston occurred because of the conversation that came out of celebrating people with questionable backgrounds in the US. But does that mean that these conversations should not happen?

The reason there isn't criticism about 'Kick it Out' etc is because those initiatives can be easily ignored but this most recent phase of protesting to highlight issues is proving to have real world impacts and so this is why people want to stop it.

bewareofthedog

MrStuffins wrote: »

Kick It Out defaced a statue of Churchill? What?

And thus, the argument was won. :rolleyes:

Christy42

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

Wasn't a Churchill also defaced by random Chelsea fans at one point recently to little publicity?

Let us not kid ourselves that people cared too much about the statue.

I mean kick it out does not seem to have generated the same conversation so the happiness with that is that it was barely noticed which is not ideal for a campaign.

MrStuffins

bewareofthedog wrote: »

And thus, the argument was won. :rolleyes:

When did Kick It Out deface a statue of Churchill?

Arghus

seamus wrote: »

WTF has Marxism got to do with this.

It's an anti-racism statement.

And no, nobody is saying all football fans are racist, but it's more acceptable amongst them.

When's the last time you heard of fans of tennis, rugby, golf, cricket, etc shouting racist abuse at players from the side of the field?

I'm sure it happens, but it's far rarer. There's an ingrained acceptance of "laddism" in football supporters that allows all sorts of bigotry to go uncorrected.

The Marxism stuff is whataboutery that gets bandied around as a defence of booing.

I think comparing levels of racism and problems with racism across different sports is very difficult. Mainly because football dwarfs all the other sports in popularity and general interest.

That's not to say that football doesn't have problems with racism, of course, it clearly does.

But I think the comparison made between football and other comparatively niche sports - tennis for example - ignores the huge disparity in the numbers and demographics involved in fandom and participation between differing sports and it supports a reductionist argument that football culture is inherently racist in a way that other sports aren't.

I'm not condoning the booing of players taking the knee - it's moronic and despicable - and neither denying that there are aspects of football culture that do thrive on "laddism" and general toxicity, but football is a very, very, broad church and it can't be just easily surmised as ignorant on the whole. Football culture contains multitudes in a way that other sports simply don't and as a result it has to grapple and confront with problems of wider society, whereas other sports operate in a comparatively narrower and, oftentimes, more privelleged strata of society.

Particularly in the UK. It's interesting that for all of its issues with racism - which do exist - football is a sport where the majority of those who rise to the top are working class and often from ethnic minorities. Can the same be said generally of rugby, cricket, tennis etc? Footballs racism can be very obvious, but there is undoubtedly discrimination and lack of opportunity in other sports as well.

bewareofthedog

Christy42 wrote: »

Let us not kid ourselves that people cared too much about the statue.

Yeah, OK. Here's one video with 7.5m views based on the incident.

TomTomTim

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. Because those football fans don't understand or accept why it might be that some people are venerated when they implemented quite racist practices.

There's no doubt that the attacking of statues like Churchill or Colston occurred because of the conversation that came out of celebrating people with questionable backgrounds in the US. But does that mean that these conversations should not happen?

The reason there isn't criticism about 'Kick it Out' etc is because those initiatives can be easily ignored but this most recent phase of protesting to highlight issues is proving to have real world impacts and so this is why people want to stop it.

Are you talking about all of the BLM martyrs?

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

C'mon, you think that those people are booing because they disagree with exactly how the anti-racism message is being put across?

Sure! And when they're on away days smashing up bars, they're actually only redecorating! :rolleyes:

And do you think BLM only want to spread the message that black lives are important and there is no racist undertone to it?

Sure, and when they are protesting and looting a beating up people they are only spreading equality. :rolleyes:

Bobblehats

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

Well closer to home it coincided with a spate of violent racist attacks against the indigenous people of Ireland

Really felt like we were under siege to me; from invaders just because they’re not documenting it anymore doesn’t mean it doesn’t continue. Call me a bit primitive myself but I question the masculinity of any male who doesn’t feel the urge to protect their people from this type of marauder, the baggage they carry and the societal strife that ensues.

MrStuffins

tailorspy wrote: »

Silly is fine as a criticism. I don't have a problem with that but you haven't really explained what your belief is. Why do you think fans are booing the players who take the knee? I'm genuinely interested.

I think the booing was by a small minority of people in the stadium, but unfortunately the majority of those people were booing due to xenophobic and, sometimes, racist motivations.

I've attended many many games of football in the UK. I've seen and heard what goes on and I can tell you first hand that there are regular xenophobic and racist things shouted regularly.

In fact, I know some of these people personally. I can't say i'd call them friends but I wouldn't have friends like that. But I know them personally and I know what their feelings are. And I know that they have boo'd at games within the last 6 weeks or so.

If the people I have witnessed do and say these things have suddenly changed their tune, but are coincidentally now annoyed by the Americanisation of the protests, i'd be very surprised.

Danzy

Ahwell wrote: »

The English squad is unified in the decision to take the knee.

They have to think about things like corporate sponsorship and the fact that if they don't go along that the mob will preach brimstone and fire in them.

Fr D Maugire

Christy42 wrote: »

Wasn't a Churchill also defaced by random Chelsea fans at one point recently to little publicity?

Let us not kid ourselves that people cared too much about the statue.

I mean kick it out does not seem to have generated the same conversation so the happiness with that is that it was barely noticed which is not ideal for a campaign.

Well, maybe a campaign that seems to be leading to the same sort of divisiveness that exists in the US is not ideal either.

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

And do you think BLM.......

I'm not talking about BLM. So i'm not sure why you are bringing them up here to me.

Actually, i'm very sure. But that's another topic of conversation.

Tchaikovsky

Imagine, you wait nearly a year and a half to finally get into a football stadium and support your team and you boo your own players for kneeling for 10 seconds in support of racial justice. Incredible.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm not talking about BLM. So i'm not sure why you are bringing them up here to me.

Actually, i'm very sure. But that's another topic of conversation.

Another thinly veiled "you're a racist" post.

It's beyond parody at this stage.

Tchaikovsky

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Imagine, you wait nearly a year and a half to finally get into a football stadium and support your team and you boo your own players for kneeling for 10 seconds in support of racial justice. Incredible.

Imagine booing them when they do something you disagree with and then getting on with supporting them?

Seems reasonable.

MrStuffins

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Imagine, you wait nearly a year and a half to finally get into a football stadium and support your team and you boo your own players for kneeling for 10 seconds in support of racial justice. Incredible.

TO be fair, these are supporters of the England National Team.

They wait for 2 years, every 2 years, for a major tournament only to try their very best to sabotage their own team before the kick off by undermining the manager, the players, the kit man and anyone they can get a word in against!

They're the only nation who pick out their scapegoat months in advance!

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

Another thinly veiled "you're a racist" post.

It's beyond parody at this stage.

Strange that you'd take that from what I said.............

Danzy

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm not talking about BLM. So i'm not sure why you are bringing them up here to me.

Actually, i'm very sure. But that's another topic of conversation.

Where did that happen?

MrStuffins

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Quick, check under the bed!

Do you ever ask yourself why the same criticism doesn't exist against long standing anti racism campaigns in football like kick it out?

When they started defacing statues like Churchill it's not very hard to understand why segments of football fans in the UK started turning against the slogan and the politics it represents.

MrStuffins wrote: »

When did Kick It Out deface a statue of Churchill?

Still no answer to this.

I'll ask you a different question:

If the players were protesting pre-game under the banner of Kick It Out or a different organisation/slogan, would you be ok with that?

Billy Mays

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Well, maybe a campaign that seems to be leading to the same sort of divisiveness that exists in the US is not ideal either.

Let's not campaign against racism cos it only leads to divisiveness