Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Danzy

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's the usual suspects who are skeptical. Everyone else knows the score.

Are you in the anointed group?

MrStuffins

Danzy wrote: »

Are you in the anointed group?

Pointy birds..... oh pointy pointy. Anoint my head..... anointy nointy!

gormdubhgorm

tjhook wrote: »

If you adopt the symbology of a movement, you're exhibiting support for that movement.

Some here have said that "taking the knee" pre-dates BLM, and so it isn't an expression of support for BLM. By that logic, the swastika would be welcome on the terraces, as it has been a symbol of good fortune and peace for over a thousand years before more modern uses. It doesn't wash. A symbol represents whatever concept is most familiar to the people it's being presented to.

Black Lives Matter is controversial in its country of origin - in terms of whether it is solely about racism, or encompasses other political/societal topics. That's baggage, even if you support the anti-racism message. I think it was a mistake to import it all into football on this side of the world. If a team wants to deliver a message, it should be clear and without additional controversy beyond what its trying to communicate.

Previous anti-racism initiatives in football have not had such resistance, because they were clearly solely about racism.

And all that's before we consider how the the people of a country would feel being singled out as recipients of these symbols of social justice. Imagine if the English team was allowed to wear a poppy, but only chose to do so when coming to Ireland for a match. I'd bet we'd have some very unimpressed people here. Booing would be considered a restrained response!

Exactly, there is too much mudding of the water. Why did the footballers not invent their own gesture against racism instead of copying the BLM?

Footballers are great at inventing goal celebrations so it should be no bother to them to invent a unique gesture against racism if they really think it is necessary and they firmly believe it makes a difference.
The latter belief is misguided in my view as such gestures do not achieve anything in reality.

But if players really feel they have to do such a gesture which has nothing to do with football and is not in the matchday timetable - it is very disingenuous of them to have copied it straight from America and BLM - and pretend that it has a 'higher purpose'.

MrStuffins

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Footballers are great at inventing goal celebrations so it should be no bother to them to invent a unique gesture against racism if they really think it is necessary and they firmly believe it makes a difference.
The latter belief is misguided in my view as such gestures do not achieve anything in reality.

Do you honestly believe if they'd invented their own, like a jumping jack or a little dance, that there would have been no booing?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point.

.

But it doesn't prove your point. It does the opposite. Just because racism is hard to prove, it doesn't give you carte blanche to accuse everyone you disagree with of racism

Tell me how

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly, there is too much mudding of the water. Why did the footballers not invent their own gesture against racism instead of copying the BLM?

Footballers are great at inventing goal celebrations so it should be no bother to them to invent a unique gesture against racism if they really think it is necessary and they firmly believe it makes a difference.
The latter belief is misguided in my view as such gestures do not achieve anything in reality.

But if players really feel they have to do such a gesture which has nothing to do with football and is not in the matchday timetable - it is very disingenuous of them to have copied it straight from America and BLM - and pretend that it has a 'higher purpose'.

Are footballers the only group or are civil rights the only topic which must be completely original in every practice, method and communication which they use?

Don't tell me you don't understand how symbols and ideals have always influenced one another and are adopted and expanded upon.

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here in an effort to condemn those protesting in this way.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

Do you honestly believe if they'd invented their own, like a jumping jack or a little dance, that there would have been no booing?

Perhaps the players all shaking hands before the match under a banner of "discrimination will never be tolerated" would have been much more appropriate.

Danzy

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's the usual suspects who are skeptical. Everyone else knows the score.

Are you in the anointed group?

The activists might feel like they are not getting the respect or kudos that they feel they strongly deserve but they have to accept that a lot of people dislike them.

It's like People mocking Sloans years ago, or calling some one a D4 tosser.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

But it doesn't prove your point. It does the opposite. Just because racism is hard to prove, it doesn't give you carte blanche to accuse everyone you disagree with of racism

Good job I haven't done that then.

Danzy

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps the players all shaking hands before the match under a banner of "discrimination will never be tolerated" would have been much more appropriate.

There is a long history of other gestures and successful campaigns.

They were results focused rather than activist focused.

gormdubhgorm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Do you honestly believe if they'd invented their own, like a jumping jack or a little dance, that there would have been no booing?

It would at least distance themselves from BLM. But many people would still be annoyed with it, because it is an mainly because unnecessary pantomime that serve no useful purpose. There is already the RESPECT signs at football grounds no theatrics.

If I was BAME (as the English call it) I would boo any unnecessary gesture/cause which disrupts the normal matchday. But if I was BAME I would be forced not to Boo for fear I would be branded as a racist.

In my view by making such a gesture the players are not showing RESPECT to the game of football, and hijacking a matchday to make a point.

tonycascarino

Personally, I cannot blame anyone for booing the knee. It is completely yawn worthy at this stage and is nothing more than a ticking the box PR exercise that does absolutely nothing for actual racism. In any case, political rubbish from America should not be influencing this side of the world. We do not have the same issues as them in this country by any stretch of the imagination.

Tell me how

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It would at least distance themselves from BLM. But many people would still be annoyed with it, because it is an mainly because unnecessary pantomime that serve no useful purpose. There is already the RESPECT signs at football grounds no theatrics.

If I was BAME (as the English call it) I would boo any unnecessary gesture/cause which disrupts the normal matchday. But if I was BAME I would be forced not to Boo for fear I would be branded as a racist.

In my view by making such a gesture the players are not showing RESPECT to the game of football, and hijacking a matchday to make a point.

So they should shut up and not disturb the proceedings in a way which makes anyone uncomfortable and should trust that the same practices which have attempted to weed out racism, and which haven't worked before, will actually work going forward?

Is that your position?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Good job I haven't done that then.

It was a general "you". Cheerfully I will clarify that it wasn't specific to you.

I meant that your point wasn't proven, and it doesn't give society in general the right to accuse people of horrific things without proof just because they believe it to be true.

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps the players all shaking hands before the match under a banner of "discrimination will never be tolerated" would have been much more appropriate.

Sure. By those amongst us so obsessed by BLM that they haunt every waking moment of their lives.

But that's not the question I asked

gormdubhgorm

Tell me how wrote: »

Are footballers the only group or are civil rights the only topic which must be completely original in every practice, method and communication which they use?

Don't tell me you don't understand how symbols and ideals have always influenced one another and are adopted and expanded upon.

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here in an effort to condemn those protesting in this way.

How is it scraping the barrel? I am just stating the obvious why do some footballers persist with this knee craic and have to claim that it is not for BLM

I am sure you followed the genesis of this

1. USA>
2. BLM>
3. Colin Kaepernick>
4. George Floyd's death at hands of an American policeman>
5. EPL players with BLM tshirts taking the knee>
6. still taking the knee over a year later>
7. qualifying the 'knee' as saying it does not represent BLM>
8. Gareth Southgate thinking himself and his players are making a 'difference'

--

It is utter madness the more I think about it and it shows how twisted, insincere, and bandwagonish the world has become in the internet age of the millenial. America issues and crazes suddenly become the worlds?

MrStuffins

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But many people would still be annoyed with it, because it is an mainly because unnecessary pantomime

So this is why there were boos.

Everyone just thought it was a pantomime.

There were no racial motivations?

Why are you trying to pretend that there were no racists booing?

Yakov P. Golyadkin

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

Feel free to, speaking for myself I'd treat any such accusation with the same seriousness it deserves. I certainly wouldn't be tying myself in knots claiming otherwise.

Yup, because those accusations don't deserve any serious consideration because the people making the accusations are passing judgment on vague assertions, unwilling or unable to provide evidence to support themselves.

To me, they're little different from trolls, seeking to trigger others enough that they get banned.

Enough said on this. It's going nowhere.

Danzy

MrStuffins wrote: »

So this is why there were boos.

Everyone just thought it was a pantomime.

There were no racial motivations?

Why are you trying to pretend that there were no racists booing?

That's really stretching it.

MrStuffins

Danzy wrote: »

That's really stretching it.

Agreed. It's a massive stretch to try to claim that the boos were because it was a pantomime and to flatly refuse to acknowledge that there were any racial motivations.

It's very telling when someone is trying to pretend there were no racists booing.

Quantum Erasure

Danzy wrote: »

That's really stretching it.

Oh no it isn't....

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair play to them. If that's what they want to do.

Doesn't mean I agree with them or think that people shouldn't boo them I'd they felt opposed to their gesture.

So how come 20% don’t take the knee?? Peer pressure from FAs, other players and sponsors.

Bobblehats

MrStuffins wrote: »

So this is why there were boos.

Everyone just thought it was a pantomime.

There were no racial motivations?

Why are you trying to pretend that there were no racists booing?

Of course there were racists there’s racists in every society; quite possibly the majority point is it wasn’t racially motivated.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

Sure. By those amongst us so obsessed by BLM that they haunt every waking moment of their lives.

But that's not the question I asked

They don't haunt every waking moment of my life, but they sure as hell have made my life exceptionally harder since the death of George Floyd.

I oppose BLM, I oppose racism. Yet by doing the first, idiots believe I can't do the second.

MrStuffins

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Oh no it isn't....

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

So how come 20% don’t take the knee?? Peer pressure from FAs, other players and sponsors.

Because they don't want to?

Tell me how

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How is it scraping the barrel? I am just stating the obvious why do some footballers persist with this knee craic and have to claim that it is not for BLM

I am sure you followed the genesis of this

1. USA>
2. BLM>
3. Colin Kaepernick>
4. George Floyd>
5. EPL players with BLM tshirts taking the knee (because they know the experience of being targeted because of the colour of their skin)>
6. still taking the knee over a year later>
7. qualifying the 'knee' as saying it does not represent BLM>

--

Have added the bit in bold which I think is key.

And the reason they continue is that over the last several months, Ian Wright, Marcus Rashford, Raheem Sterling are just some of the prominent football people who have been in the news because of the abuse the receive.

Their protests started at the time of BLM as black people and how they were treated and people in other countries took this on both as an act of solidarity and because they could empathise based on their own experience.

How difficult is it to comprehend that it is the continuation of the protests are now motivated by their own experiences given how publicized events in which they have been targeted have been?

MrStuffins

Bobblehats wrote: »

Of course there were racists there’s racists in every society; quite possibly the majority point is it wasn’t racially motivated.

So the racists who were booing the anti-racist gesture weren't racially motivated............

Bobblehats

MrStuffins wrote: »

So the racists who were booing the anti-racist gesture weren't racially motivated............

They are booing a flaunting of the rules.

Danzy

MrStuffins wrote: »

Agreed. It's a massive stretch to try to claim that the boos were because it was a pantomime and to flatly refuse to acknowledge that there were any racial motivations.

It's very telling when someone is trying to pretend there were no racists booing.

🙂