Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Fr D Maugire

Ha Long Bay wrote: »

The confusing part is why some posters here are trying to tie the action of some footballers to BLM and ignore everything else.


Do you think BLM started the gesture or in some way own it?


https://globalnews.ca/news/3769534/martin-luther-king-jr-take-a-knee-history/

You are not the first poster to come at me with this so again I will explain why that is trying to retro-fit the purpose of kneeling.

I follow the NFL and remember when Colin Kapercnik started protesting against police brutality by refusing to stand for the National Anthem, some of his military buddies pointed out that was disrespectful to the military and that kneeling was a more appropriate gesture. That is where the current symbolism of kneeling originated. Other players also started to kneel and it built steam. It was then adopted by BLM for the same purpose.

Quantum Erasure

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is the point. BLM didn't start it,

In the UK they did though, that's where it started this side of the Atlantic, BLM on players shirts, on screen graphics, massive advertising banners, enforced voluntary participation,

nolivesmatter

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is the point. BLM didn't start it, they didn't invent it, and the whole campaign is under "No Room For Racism" and isn't even associated with the BIG BAD BLM!!

But the same posters will always be trusted to take every opportunity to blame BLM in any case.

The fact is, their issue isn't BLM at all. It's a much more fundamental issue. The BLM stuff is just a tool they use.

Your join date and the contents of your posts are always quite jarring to me. I never expect these types of troll-ish comments from someone as seasoned on here as yourself.

~Rebel~

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

You are not the first poster to come at me with this so again I will explain why that is trying to retro-fit the purpose of kneeling.

I follow the NFL and remember when Colin Kapercnik started protesting against police brutality by refusing to stand for the National Anthem, some of his military buddies pointed out that was disrespectful to the military and that kneeling was a more appropriate gesture. That is where the current symbolism of kneeling originated. Other players also started to kneel and it built steam. It was then adopted by BLM for the same purpose.

I mean, even your own argument is stating that it was something adopted by BLM far later... so you seem to agree that taking the knee was fundamentally started as an anti-racism act, that only really became used by Black Lives Matters protesters during the protests - not far off the same time the NBA players, Tennis players, and Premier League players also used it.

It really really just seems like a communal broad symbol of anti-racism, that is of course also used by an anti-racism group - but it's not their symbol. It's everyones symbol.

~Rebel~

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

In the UK they did though, that's where it started this side of the Atlantic, BLM on players shirts, on screen graphics, massive advertising banners, enforced voluntary participation,

The organisation didn't do it though. It was the players that wanted that messaging, seemingly for the power and reach of the phrase itself at the time (a phrase which of course predates the organisation). I mean, I'd love to see reference to who at BLM the organisation was involved in talking to the players, if you have a link?

Potential-Monke

It's association, innit? It's not the first gesture or symbol to be taken over by something so much that it's the first thing a lot of people will think of when they see it.

Taking a knee - Associated with BLM
Anything in rainbow - Associated with LGBTQ+
Most Irish people born in the 70's to 90's call every vacuum cleaner a hoover
Red hair - no soul

If something is so much in the forefront, associations will be made and may never be broken. Obviously, yes, not everyone thinks this way, but we're talking about the general masses, the sheeple. We already know they're not the brightest bunch, but they're many in number and this is what they do, like it or hate it. So I agree that even though the intent behind taking the knee was to highlight racism, it's so deeply engrained into people now that it's a BLM gesture that doing it is really not doing yourself or the proper cause any justice. They should have come up with their own version, or even special jerseys for that nights game with something on them. Instead of highlighting soccer players taking a collective stance against racism, it's split the public and the proper intent is lost behind reams of people arguing over it.

I don't think either gesture though would have any impact in this "fight". Gestures won't get this anywhere, and indeed seems to be going the opposite way. I can't see what more we can do that we're not already doing.

Ha Long Bay

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

You are not the first poster to come at me with this so again I will explain why that is trying to retro-fit the purpose of kneeling.

I follow the NFL and remember when Colin Kapercnik started protesting against police brutality by refusing to stand for the National Anthem, some of his military buddies pointed out that was disrespectful to the military and that kneeling was a more appropriate gesture. That is where the current symbolism of kneeling originated. Other players also started to kneel and it built steam. It was then adopted by BLM for the same purpose.

I won't be the last when I ask a question like this and get this reply:


Me "Do you think BLM started the gesture or in some way own it?"


You "I follow the NFL and remember when Colin Kapercnik"

~Rebel~

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's association, innit? It's not the first gesture or symbol to be taken over by something so much that it's the first thing a lot of people will think of when they see it.

Taking a knee - Associated with BLM
Anything in rainbow - Associated with LGBTQ+
Most Irish people born in the 70's to 90's call every vacuum cleaner a hoover
Red hair - no soul

If something is so much in the forefront, associations will be made and may never be broken. Obviously, yes, not everyone thinks this way, but we're talking about the general masses, the sheeple. We already know they're not the brightest bunch, but they're many in number and this is what they do, like it or hate it. So I agree that even though the intent behind taking the knee was to highlight racism, it's so deeply engrained into people now that it's a BLM gesture that doing it is really not doing yourself or the proper cause any justice. They should have come up with their own version, or even special jerseys for that nights game with something on them. Instead of highlighting soccer players taking a collective stance against racism, it's split the public and the proper intent is lost behind reams of people arguing over it.

I don't think either gesture though would have any impact in this "fight". Gestures won't get this anywhere, and indeed seems to be going the opposite way. I can't see what more we can do that we're not already doing.

Honestly though the people who are most adamant about the connection really just seem to be the people opposed to the organisation. I think for most people it's an anti-racist symbol, with one clear meaning - which is anti-racism.

The first association I think of for it isn't BLM, it's Colin Kaepernick - and that's, like, by a long way. He is by a million miles the thing that stands out as its strongest connection.

Ahwell

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

In the UK they did though, that's where it started this side of the Atlantic, BLM on players shirts, on screen graphics, massive advertising banners, enforced voluntary participation,

In the beginning yes, but all references to BLM stopped at the start of the 2020-21 season and was replaced with "No Room For Racism".

MrStuffins

Ahwell wrote: »

In the beginning yes, but all references to BLM stopped at the start of the 2020-21 season and was replaced with "No Room For Racism".

This point has been laid out over a dozen times. But there's no explaining to the BLM obsessed crowd. They just ignore it, go on about terrorists (I'm sure some of them check under their cars for pipe-bombs each morning) and the wheel goes round and round.

Quantum Erasure

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The organisation didn't do it though. It was the players that wanted that messaging, seemingly for the power and reach of the phrase itself at the time (a phrase which of course predates the organisation). I mean, I'd love to see reference to who at BLM the organisation was involved in talking to the players, if you have a link?

The players that wanted it, I'd love to see a reference for that.

Thatd be my problem with it, apart from the whole 'BLM organisation' itself, it's the enforced participation, oh of course its voluntary, but youd be a brave man not to kneel, Itd take more balls than Colin Kapercnik to stand up to it...

MrStuffins

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The players that wanted it, I'd love to see a reference for that.

Thatd be my problem with it, apart from the whole 'BLM organisation' itself, it's the enforced participation, oh of course its voluntary, but youd be a brave man not to kneel, Itd take more balls than Colin Kapercnik to stand up to it...

There are many examples of players and whole teams who haven't knelt, as highlighted in this thread earlier.

The fact that they're not in the forefront of your mind when you posted this tells you everything you need to know.

extra gravy

MrStuffins wrote: »

This point has been laid out over a dozen times. But there's no explaining to the BLM obsessed crowd. They just ignore it, go on about terrorists (I'm sure some of them check under their cars for pipe-bombs each morning) and the wheel goes round and round.

https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/news-and-ideas/black-lives-matter-protesters-were-overwhelmingly-peaceful-our-research-finds

"The Black Lives Matter uprisings were remarkably nonviolent. When there was violence, very often police or counterprotesters were reportedly directing it at the protesters."

Tell me how

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The players that wanted it, I'd love to see a reference for that.

Thatd be my problem with it, apart from the whole 'BLM organisation' itself, it's the enforced participation, oh of course its voluntary, but youd be a brave man not to kneel, Itd take more balls than Colin Kapercnik to stand up to it...

Tucker Carlson would give you a writers position with this ability to spin a narrative. Not sure if he replaced his main one who had to resign last year.

Ahwell

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The players that wanted it, I'd love to see a reference for that.

Troy Deeney and his girlfriend designed the BLM badge that were on the shirts for the 12 matches.

~Rebel~

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The players that wanted it, I'd love to see a reference for that.

Thatd be my problem with it, apart from the whole 'BLM organisation' itself, it's the enforced participation, oh of course its voluntary, but youd be a brave man not to kneel, Itd take more balls than Colin Kapercnik to stand up to it...

I'm pretty surprised you weren't aware of that, it wasn't exactly a small story at the time when the Premier League captains got together representing their teams and insisted upon it. They were pretty active throughout that period as a group, also getting together to provide funding for the NHS. I mean, the Premier league haaates shit like this, there's no way they were gonna go along with it without the players really pushing for it.

Anyway, here's your link;
"The decision to take the knee before matches was initially made by Premier League captains during Project Restart, to show solidarity with Black people facing discrimination globally. This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position. It is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue."

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12165892/pfa-survey-shows-players-wish-to-continue-taking-a-knee-despite-some-fans-booing-the-anti-racism-gesture

As that also goes into, according to the PFA, 80% of the players are still fully in support of the continued use of taking the knee. Jordan Henderson (one of the main captains) said as much a day or two ago too.

~Rebel~

Since I guess maybe it wasn't as common knowledge as I expected, here's a few more tidbits from the captains chat;

It was De Bruyne who suggested replacing the players’ names with Black Lives Matter. Henderson suggested a badge. Deeney volunteered his wife’s design services.

In hindsight, the most significant suggestion came from David McGoldrick, the Sheffield United captain. He wondered if the players should borrow the symbolism of Colin Kaepernick and a host of players in American sports and take a knee before games.

So I guess lads have our very own Irish hero Didzy to blame for the knee.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/sports/soccer/premier-league-kneeling-protest.html

Quantum Erasure

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Anyway, here's your link;
"The decision to take the knee before matches was initially made by Premier League captains during Project Restart, to show solidarity with Black people facing discrimination globally. This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position. It is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue."

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12165892/pfa-survey-shows-players-wish-to-continue-taking-a-knee-despite-some-fans-booing-the-anti-racism-gesture
.

That's an after the fact statement, made 6 months later, but thanks

~Rebel~

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

That's an after the fact statement, made 6 months later, but thanks

My other link above does seem to back it up though, with our very own Didzy being the one to suggest taking the knee based on its symbolism in sports, particularly Kaepernick. Which of course makes sense... what cue do we expect pro athletes to take, only from other pro athletes. It was an easy read across sports from NFL, to NBA, Tennis, and then because of these lads, Football.

<edit>
And just to go another step further, here's David McGoldrick himself - the man who came up with it, and was the first to do it with the first match back - saying it wasn't political.

"This wasn't about politics,' said McGoldrick. 'It wasn't about anything other than showing the players were together. All races, all backgrounds, all nationalities, all religions, all coming together to say no to racism. That was the main concept behind it."

''Some of them think it's about politics, but it is not political. It is a stance to say we're united about saying no to racism."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9091321/David-McGoldrick-speaks-Sportsmail-taking-knee-football.html

Quantum Erasure

MrStuffins wrote: »

There are many examples of players and whole teams who haven't knelt, as highlighted in this thread earlier.

The fact that they're not in the forefront of your mind when you posted this tells you everything you need to know.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56126928

Some leading footballers to stop taking a knee
20 Feb 2021

That was after 9 game weeks to finish off the season, and half the next season.... youd think if they weren't feeling some pressure to comply, someone would have stood up sooner

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

The real problem with taking the knee is that is having no effect whatsoever.

Black footballers still receive racist abuse online no matter how many times they take the knee before kick off.

The issue is dealing with the online abuse, and going forward the few morons in grounds who racially abuse players. The responsibility for that doesn't rest with players and as a number of black footballers have realised taking the knee isn't effective and have stopped engaging in the practice.

Ultimately the platforms that host this behaviour have to take responsibility for what is posted by their users, they're not short of money let them sort their own houses out at long last.

While a noble goal, it's an impossible task to eliminate all abuse online. Websites have report functions. If people use them then it shouldn't be an issue.

I just wish there would be more training for people in how to ignore online trolls. Idiots can't be changed. So maybe we instead focus on developing thick skins in the online world, on the assumption that there will always be morons out there.

SlowBlowin

Alex Belfield, who is rapidly gaining a following in the UK, is quite vocal on the subject:

BringBackMick

archfi wrote: »

I would hope most readers of this thread can see what the coming of the critical theory age has done to discourse.
It's bloody shocking.

HAs anyone read or heard the FAI and Kenny's justification for not bending their collective knees on behalf of Ireland in Andorra?

The silence on that has been deafening.

Anybody could think the decision to take the knee against Hungary was purely based on a dislike for the conservative populist government in place in Hungary.

Are we going to go around taking the knee in countries dependent on the type of government and politics in each country?

This wasn't a political decision was it FAI?

Somebody please ask the question of the FAI and find out what happened.

It stinks

BringBackMick

Some delusional guy on Radio 1 there, saying Kenny should have taken players off pitch and going completely over the top on this!!!

Going to ask as question in EU Parliment.

If it isn't clear already this is a political move by FAI etc, then it is clear as day now.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

What's confusing things a bit is the claim that taking the knee is a show of support for BLM activists in the US.

I would argue that it isn't : certainly in the case of the England and Ireland teams this week, it seems to have been purely meant as a gesture against racism in football.

The confusing part is that they decided to continue to use a gesture that is synonymous with BLM, after months of doing the same gesture under the banner of BLM, wearing jerseys emblazoned with Black Lives Matter, with the television station having BLM logos on the screen and people are now seemingly incapable of understanding how it is seen as a BLM friendly (at best) gesture.

archfi

BringBackMick wrote: »

The silence on that has been deafening.

Anybody could think the decision to take the knee against Hungary was purely based on a dislike for the conservative populist government in place in Hungary.

Are we going to go around taking the knee in countries dependent on the type of government and politics in each country?

This wasn't a political decision was it FAI?

Somebody please ask the question of the FAI and find out what happened.

It stinks

I caught an interview on Morning Ireland in the last half hour with some guy (I think Ken McHugh was his name, I've searched his name but nothing came up, who is some functionary/liason on educating about racism with the FAI I think) and he is calling on the FAI to lodge a formal complaint about Orban's comments in order to get Hungary cancelled as a host!
The full gamut of Franco and Mussolini came out of his mouth hole - the RTE presenter not once questioned him on that nor asked about Andorra and the clearly political targetting being employed by that dope Kenny & the FAI.

EDIT: just saw you heard that radio piece as well.
I haven't cringed as much in a long while.

Maybe the spirit of the last disastrous FAI head is still hanging about like a bad smell and pathetic FAI Ireland is hoping to replace Hungary at the Euros - absolutely nothing would surprise me about the little functionaries in this country!

Fandymo

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is the point. BLM didn't start it, they didn't invent it, and the whole campaign is under "No Room For Racism" and isn't even associated with the BIG BAD BLM!!

But the same posters will always be trusted to take every opportunity to blame BLM in any case.

The fact is, their issue isn't BLM at all. It's a much more fundamental issue. The BLM stuff is just a tool they use.

I might get a swastika tattoo. The Nazis didn’t start it, they didn’t invent it and it was around for hundreds of years before they started using it. But some posters will take every opportunity to blame me for getting a swastika and not being able to get a job in any case.

Omackeral

I wouldn’t boo the knee nor would I want to take the knee. A middle ground, imagine that.. What I would do is just continue on as I do in my daily life treating any team-mates, colleagues, friends, customers, members of the public the exact same as each other, regardless of skin colour. Probably makes me stupid or racist according to some in here.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

I wouldn’t boo the knee nor would I want to take the knee. A middle ground, imagine that.. What I would do is just continue on as I do in my daily life treating any team-mates, colleagues, friends, customers, members of the public the exact same as each other, regardless of skin colour. Probably makes me stupid or racist according to some in here.

My opinion too.

If they did a handshake in the tunnel with sky putting a banner saying "end discrimination" it would be much more widely accepted and acknowledged than using a gesture which is associated with a highly contentious group of thugs/activists

MrStuffins

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56126928

Some leading footballers to stop taking a knee
20 Feb 2021

That was after 9 game weeks to finish off the season, and half the next season.... youd think if they weren't feeling some pressure to comply, someone would have stood up sooner

Strange that you weren't aware of this until you had to Google it though eh?

Must have been a world-stopping scandal!