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Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

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    #1442
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Really?



    Sounds like a neutral position to me.

    Now, unless you're his lawyer, i'm not sure why you keep talking for him. Give it up.


    If you are not opposed to it, why would you have a problem with kneeling?


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    #1443
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's that kind of take which says it all really.

    Treating people as equal is not enough for you.

    Do you encounter much racism in your daily life?

    What sort of take is that the dunne?

    The poster referenced his team mates while saying he wouldn't take the knee, am I not allowed to have an opinion or dose it become a 'take' when I want to query it?

    What do you mean by encounter much racism? Racism targeted at me? Racism which is targeted at people connected to me? Racism I observe? Is there a threshold before we can empathise with people who do experience it? How about you?


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    #1444
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Nawwww.. bless.

    My whole point was that you guys were saying that BLM were mostly peaceful and shouldn't be tarred as a bad thing.

    The insurrection was equally peaceful and has been lauded as one of the worst things to happen in America.

    My opinion is both the insurrection and BLM were horrible movements full of thugs and violence (BLM even more so)

    Do you agree?

    Absolutely not.


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    #1445
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    How's the proof-finding going? Find anything yet?

    Sorry, proof that Les Ferdinand or zaha was called a racist? No. I have none. I never said it though.

    And there is a post just a couple up that I quoted saying that being neutral is stupid or selfish.

    If you are going to request proof from me, please try to keep it to stuff I said. I was interested in knowing what you were demanding proof of, but it seems to be innocuous stuff.


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    #1446
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Absolutely not.

    I thought so.

    Mostly peaceful is not a good metric.

    I agree


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    #1447
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I thought so.

    Mostly peaceful is not a good metric.

    I agree

    100% of the insurrection was violent.
    Greater than 93% of BLM protests were peaceful.

    Still think they were equal?


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    #1448
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Yes. Middle East, Asia, America.

    Genuine question, why do you ask?

    Because if I explained to my friends, that I thought taking a knee was a pointless and empty gesture. None of them would think I was not supportive of them which is what you are suggesting. They would expect support on a personal level, but I don't think they expect public gestures to prove my worthiness to the world.

    Maybe it is a generational thing.


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    #1449
    tjhook
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭tjhook


    I'm confident that a significant number of the players "taking the knee" are doing so with noble intentions. And that the rest don't have nefarious intentions - they probably don't feel strongly about it and are just taking the path of least resistance. So I wouldn't criticise the players. They're doing what they think is right. However, the chosen symbology does come with baggage.

    If the George Floyd death (and the following BLM-related events) hadn't taken place, would football teams in this part of the world have chosen "taking the knee" as a gesture? I very much doubt it. Yes, the gesture goes back to Colin Kaepernick, and before that possibly all the way back to Martin Luther King. But they didn't popularise it in Europe.

    Look at this thread. Lots of talk about BLM. Far less talk about actual incidences of racism in football. That indicates to me that the football teams' choice of "taking the knee" as a gesture is diverting people's attention and discussion in the wrong direction. Rather than focusing on eliminating racism from football, the attention is on attacking and defending BLM, and whether or not teams are showing support for BLM. Are they? I would argue that they are, even if they don't mean to. But that's irrelevant. when it comes to public gestures, it's the perception that matters. And the perception on this topic appears very mixed.

    That's hardly the desired response to an anti-racism initiative. By that measurement, I'd consider it a failure, regardless of good intentions.


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    #1450
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What sort of take is that the dunne?

    The poster referenced his team mates while saying he wouldn't take the knee, am I not allowed to have an opinion or dose it become a 'take' when I want to query it?

    What do you mean by encounter much racism? Racism targeted at me? Racism which is targeted at people connected to me? Racism I observe? Is there a threshold before we can empathise with people who do experience it? How about you?

    The take of "if you don't bend the knee, you are selfish or stupid"

    I was speaking about any type of racism and if it impacts your everyday life.

    You don't need to answer if you don't want to. I understand it can be quite personal


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    #1451
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Fr D Maugire wrote: »
    Because if I explained to my friends, that I thought taking a knee was a pointless and empty gesture. None of them would think I was not supportive of them which is what you are suggesting. They would expect support on a personal level, but I don't think they expect public gestures to prove my worthiness to the world.

    Maybe it is a generational thing.

    How about if some of your friends thought it was a meaningful gesture? Or was a stepping stone or snippet in the greater conversation towards moving towards meaningful action, would you still refuse to do it?

    Because that is what is being advocated here.


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    #1452
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    100% of the insurrection was violent.
    Greater than 93% of BLM protests were peaceful.

    Still think they were equal?

    That's simply not true. Of all the people who were at capitol hill protesting 100% were not violent

    If you count the insurrection as just the law breakers, then I will apply the same logic to BLM.


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    #1453
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The take of "if you don't bend the knee, you are selfish or stupid"

    I was speaking about any type of racism and if it impacts your everyday life.

    You don't need to answer if you don't want to. I understand it can be quite personal

    Except that wasn't the take.
    Wasn't it you who was on yesterday about the importance of context? The context to my post, which I will explain even though I'm guessing you got it, was that if the poster would treat his team mates fairly but wouldn't take the knee even if they experienced racism then yes it would be 'ambivalent, indifferent, selfish and maybe stupid'.

    Do you think it wouldn't be?


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    #1454
    NoLuckLarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭NoLuckLarry


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How about if some of your friends thought it was a meaningful gesture? Or was a stepping stone or snippet in the greater conversation towards moving towards meaningful action, would you still refuse to do it?

    Because that is what is being advocated here.

    If your friends jumped off a bridge would you do it too? Same logic. You have freedom to make personal choice of both action and thought, you don't have to blindly do something just because it's the "in" thing with others.


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    #1455
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's simply not true. Of all the people who were at capitol hill protesting 100% were not violent

    If you count the insurrection as just the law breakers, then I will apply the same logic to BLM.

    What sort of statement is that bit in bold, it is either a straight lie, or doesn't make sense?

    Will we go back in to the percentages of those who attended BLM protests throughout last year versus those arrested at them and do the same for the insurrection?


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    #1456
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    NoLuckLarry wrote: »
    If your friends jumped off a bridge would you do it too? Same logic. You have freedom to make personal choice of both action and thought, you don't have to blindly do something just because it's the "in" thing with others.

    What a ridiculous comparison.

    Do you know what the word empathy means? Have you ever experienced it?


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    #1457
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How about if some of your friends thought it was a meaningful gesture? Or was a stepping stone or snippet in the greater conversation towards moving towards meaningful action, would you still refuse to do it?

    Because that is what is being advocated here.

    No, because I would not expect someone to compromise their own beliefs just to make someone else feel better.


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    #1458
    elvui
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 56 ✭✭elvui


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Except that wasn't the take.
    Wasn't it you who was on yesterday about the importance of context? The context to my post, which I will explain even though I'm guessing you got it, was that if the poster would treat his team mates fairly but wouldn't take the knee even if they experienced racism then yes it would be 'ambivalent, indifferent, selfish and maybe stupid'.

    Do you think it wouldn't be?

    You have to remember in An European Context Taking the knee is the same as swearing of fealty being a vassal. Also a sign of subservience. Like when you propose you bend the Knee.


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    #1459
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What sort of statement is that bit in bold, it is either a straight lie, or doesn't make sense?

    Will we go back in to the percentages of those who attended BLM protests throughout last year versus those arrested at them and do the same for the insurrection?

    Apologies, I did indeed mistype. I was trying to say that your statement that 100% of people at the "insurrection" were violent was incorrect. I wasn't trying to say they were 100% non violent.

    That was my bad.


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    #1460
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Fr D Maugire wrote: »
    No, because I would not expect someone to compromise their own beliefs just to make someone else feel better.

    Even if those friends were from diverse backgrounds and had experienced racism towards them?


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    #1461
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Except that wasn't the take.
    Wasn't it you who was on yesterday about the importance of context? The context to my post, which I will explain even though I'm guessing you got it, was that if the poster would treat his team mates fairly but wouldn't take the knee even if they experienced racism then yes it would be 'ambivalent, indifferent, selfish and maybe stupid'.

    Do you think it wouldn't be?

    No I don't think it would be. Not necessarily. Unfortunately, as proved in this thread, people can claim to see racism where it doesn't exist. I wouldn't take the knee anyway, but even if I was that way inclined, I certainly wouldn't take it for something I didn't think was racist.


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    #1462
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No I don't think it would be. Not necessarily. Unfortunately, as proved in this thread, people can claim to see racism where it doesn't exist. I wouldn't take the knee anyway, but even if I was that way inclined, I certainly wouldn't take it for something I didn't think was racist.

    So, to be clear, if some of your team mates had been racially targeted, and the initiative of taking the knee was being considered to draw attention to this and call for action with respect to it, you would choose to not take a knee in that circumstance?


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    #1463
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    tailorspy wrote: »
    You are making the assumption that the team mates who experienced the racist abuse are in agreement that taking the knee is something that will affect positive change. It may be a hypothetical situation but don't discount the existence of any variables.

    Maybe, but aren't others making the assumption that many footballers believe it won't.


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    #1464
    cheekypup
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭cheekypup


    On fans booing players taking the knee:

    Would I do it? No
    Do I care if other people do it? No
    Would I prefer it not to happen? Yes

    On players taking the knee:

    Would I do it? No
    Do I care if other people do it? No
    Would I prefer it not to happen? Yes


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    #1465
    elvui
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 56 ✭✭elvui


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Maybe, but aren't others making the assumption that many footballers believe it won't.

    Anyone surveyed the fans ?


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    #1466
    NoLuckLarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭NoLuckLarry


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What a ridiculous comparison.

    Do you know what the word empathy means? Have you ever experienced it?

    It's a perfect comparison, after all you are the one equating the need to take a knee as to what your friends opinions of it are. And yes I'm quite a caring person, I just don't give a single flying **** about virtue signaling nonsense imported from the US.


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    #1467
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Even if those friends were from diverse backgrounds and had experienced racism towards them?

    My friends are from diverse backgrounds and have experienced racism as have I(well xenophobia), and whilst they might appreciate private support, they would not expect me to make a big deal of it in public. We would roughly have the same opinion, there will be always be idiots. Lets not let them hold us back.


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    #1468
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    elvui wrote: »
    Anyone surveyed the fans ?

    This has been covered on the thread.

    Also Google exists.


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    #1469
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Fr D Maugire wrote: »
    My friends are from diverse backgrounds and have experienced racism as have I(well xenophobia), and whilst they might appreciate private support, they would not expect me to make a big deal of it in public. We would roughly have the same opinion, there will be always be idiots. Lets not let them hold us back.

    If your friend was experiencing racist abuse in public, you wouldn't back them up?


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    #1470
    elvui
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 56 ✭✭elvui


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    This has been covered on the thread.

    Also Google exists.

    I don't belive it has. IIRC only thing that was linked was the Footballers themselves.


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    #1471
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    elvui wrote: »
    I don't belive it has. IIRC only thing that was linked was the Footballers themselves.

    Believe what you want, I read it.

    If I remember correctly, Dutch fans were a little less supportive than others?

    Again, it's in the thread.


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