Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely.

Would you do an identical gesture to that of a Nazi salute to promote gay pride?

It is the gesture and it's connection to a particular movement I am opposed to. Not the initiative

Weren't you talking about giant leaps just a few minutes ago?

I mean this is off the charts.
Not least equating in some way the call for black people in america to be treated fairly with the actions of the Nazi's.

But for the record, you are saying that if you're friends were being targeted and you were told, by them, that kneeling for 10-20 seconds at a specific moment was an act of solidarity towards them, you'd still refuse to do so.

elvui

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Feels like we’re going round in circles on here… we all know exactly why the knee was the chosen move by the premier league captains, and that it was for the visually clear anti-racist message that came with it from Kaepernick … the links to their conversations, and an interview with David McGoldrick - the originator of bring it to football - were all posted here last night, detailing why he did it, and that it was a completely non-political stance.

Incidentally, had they chosen something else to do before project restart, whatever that thing was would now also be classed as political.

chicken and egg again the gesture in the last few years cannot be removed from that Original Taking the knee. No more than Goose stepping can. It used to be used in a lot of armies before the Nazis and alike. But would you feel comfortable doing it now ?

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Incidentally, had they chosen something else to do before project restart, whatever that thing was would now also be classed as political.

The moment they linked themselves to BLM it became political. Moving away from BLM (even though they still sold BLM merchandise and other associations), while retaining the original gesture, does nothing to remove the association with BLM.

A different gesture would have gone a long way to show that they (or the new anti-racist initiative) no longer considered themselves, in any way, connected to the BLM movement.

But it wasn't... and they still continued to promote BLM. Not to the same extent, but the association remained, because there was no serious desire to remove that association.

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

Weren't you talking about giant leaps just a few minutes ago?

I mean this is off the charts.
Not least equating in some way the call for black people in america to be treated fairly with the actions of the Nazi's.

But for the record, you are saying that if you're friends were being targeted and you were told, by them, that kneeling for 10-20 seconds at a specific moment was an act of solidarity towards them, you'd still refuse to do so.

If they were His Friends they would know his stance on BLM and not expect him to.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Weren't you talking about giant leaps just a few minutes ago?

I mean this is off the charts.
Not least equating in some way the call for black people in america to be treated fairly with the actions of the Nazi's.

But for the record, you are saying that if you're friends were being targeted and you were told, by them, that kneeling for 10-20 seconds at a specific moment was an act of solidarity towards them, you'd still refuse to do so.

My point stands. (As I would do,)

I wouldn't make a gesture which is associated or synonymous with a movement or organisation I abhor.

Oh and reign it in, I wasn't comparing anything to Nazism, I was drawing a comparison to symbolic gestures which are synonymous with detestable movements

Tell me how

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sorry I found this comment hilarious.

It implies a number of things:

1) Taking the knee is some sort of sheild to racism - it is not

2) Taking the knee is a show of solidarity against all racism and all believe who suffer racism/have suffered racism believe it to be of use and not embarrisng - that is not the case (See Les Ferdinand - John Barnes - and Wilfred Zaha for point of reference.

3) Taking the knee seems more about making those who take the knee - feel good about themselves - and feel like they are 'making a difference' - when in reality no difference is made. Nothing is achieved

It also made me think of the following scenarios:

If someone was out with a minority race/ethnic group mate and the minority race mate sufferered abuse/discrimination - would 'taking the knee' there and then solve anything.

Say for instance if a Traveller mate was refused entry to a pub would the settled fella 'taking the knee' outside in solidarity solve anything?

Or if a pasty Irish fella's Irish mate of Black Nigerian origin was attacked/abused because of the colour of his skin would 'taking the knee' there and then solve anything?

--

It reminds me a lot of the fad where people used to collect armbands for charities they wanted to be 'seen to care'.

But at least the armbands contribute money to a cause and do not disrupt an activity/pastime.

Taking the knee does neither of the above.

If people really wanted to make a difference with race and so on they would be giving talks at schools, discussing curriculum with educators, setting up youth groups which go across socioeconomic and racial divides. That is real activism that real effort. It does not attract the same level of attention but over time it will bring change.

Something that is completely the opposite of of what 'taking the knee' it is merely attention seeking based on an American fad which was created on the back of American political and lifestyle issues. As John Barnes said it achieves nothing.

In years to come people will be laughing their heads off at this carry on and view it as a trait of the 20s internet age. Well meaning but completely pointless and naive.

A bit like John and Yoko's 'bed in' for peace in 1969. They really thought they were making a difference and could bring peace. Nowadays in hindsight they just look like complete eejits.

No one is implying the bit in bold and as a consequence the rest of your post is mostly redundant.

One thing is noteworthy however, many of the responses and accusations levelled at BLM supporters over the last year and by some form of perceived association which persists at this point were also levelled at civil rights campaigners in the 60's? Do you see much evidence of people laughing at those campaigners now?

I suspect that this will be looked on as a stepping stone towards a place where racism is experienced less in public settings and is such a means to an end. No one now, or at any point has suggested that taking the knee in and of itself is going to solve anything.

~Rebel~

elvui wrote: »

chicken and egg again the gesture in the last few years cannot be removed from that Original Taking the knee. No more than Goose stepping can. It used to be used in a lot of armies before the Nazis and alike. But would you feel comfortable doing it now ?

The original taking the knee had nothing to do with BLM. It was anti-racist and anti-police brutality. The first thing I - and I think most that don’t obsess over BLM - connect it to is anti-racism.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

Not racist, but certainly ambivalent or indifferent and probably selfish if not indeed stupid.

Selfish and stupid. Jesus Christ.

Tell me how wrote: »

How about if some of your team mates had been targeted for the colour of their skin?

Would you join in the final huddle pysching each other up before leaving the dressing room and shout things like 'Let's go lads, we're all in this together' or 'we're a team's but add at the end, 'but not you guys'?

Is that not what you would be doing in such an instance for fear of being accused of being 'woke' or something?

I’d be like lads let’s smash the f*ck out of this lot out here on the pitch and get the three points.

elvui

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The original taking the knee had nothing to do with BLM. It was anti-racist and anti-police brutality. The first thing I - and I think most that don’t obsess over BLM - connect it to is anti-racism.

Your trying to square a circle it's intrinsically linked to BLM. Or did we imagine the crowds of BLM supporters demanding People take the knee in the streets of the USA via megaphone.

Fr D Maugire

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is strange phrasing. They'd expect you to back them..........

But would you actually stand up for them? And if so, would you be doing it because you want to or because they expect it?

Of course I would back them.

But, you know what, in all the time I spent with them, college, sharing house, going out. I cannot recall having an incident involving racism to them. I wasn't with them all the time of course and it did happen, but more often than not it seemed to be more subtle like getting funny stares, being ignored etc. I did see the race card being played as often as I witnessed any direct racism.

Ironically, during my time in the UK, I probably had more derogatory remarks made to my face, but I think that is the norm in England particularly.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

FFS.
Are we not allowed respond to posts now? Is that how this discussion board should work in your view?

The posters stance is that he would treat his team mates fairly but wouldn't support them publicly. That's what he said. Can that not be pointed out?

I don't want anything from him, he contributed here, we are entitled to respond.

Wouldn’t support them publicly? Would you ever go and sh*te. I have never uttered one racist thing to another person since I’ve hit puberty. I would call out any individual slight made in my presence. I do not subscribe to the notion that poor old black people need white me on my knees. I wouldn’t insult them by assuming. Take people at face value as you find them. Not by jumping on bandwagons and joining the hive mind. I’ll do me and be a decent bloke. I won’t apologise for other **** behaviour but if I see it happening in my circle, I’ll call it out. That’s real world talk by the way. Much harder than changing a profile pic or taking a knee.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

The poster referenced his team mates while saying he wouldn't take the knee, am I not allowed to have an opinion or dose it become a 'take' when I want to query it?

Probably be vilified for not taking it actually. I wonder how many just go along with it to avoid the sh*tstorm.

elvui

Omackeral wrote: »

Probably be vilified for not taking it actually. I wonder how many just go along with it to avoid the sh*tstorm.

I have a mad Idea, Drop taking the Knee and put collection buckets inside the turnstiles for people to donate to the anti racism cause.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Wouldn’t support them publicly? Would you ever go and sh*te. I have never uttered one racist thing to another person since I’ve hit puberty. I would call out any individual slight made in my presence. I do not subscribe to the notion that poor old black people need white me on my knees. I wouldn’t insult them by assuming. Take people at face value as you find them. Not by jumping on bandwagons and joining the hive mind. I’ll do me and be a decent bloke. I won’t apologise for other **** behaviour but if I see it happening in my circle, I’ll call it out. That’s real world talk by the way. Much harder than changing a profile pic or taking a knee.

Probably the best take on the thread. I agree

~Rebel~

elvui wrote: »

Your trying to square a circle it's intrinsically linked to BLM. Or did we imagine the crowds of BLM supporters demanding People take the knee in the streets of the USA via megaphone.

I would say it’s linked to the ethos of Black Lives Matter, the phrase. The vast majority of people don’t even particularly know what Black Lives Matter - the organisation - stand for beyond general anti-racism and anti-police brutality.

As a good quick test, if the word ‘Marxist’ comes to someone’s mind when they see the knee, that’s a fairly sure fire way of knowing they’re in the niche group getting told their opinions by the likes of Farage, and are also the people for whom any Black pushback will be seen negatively.

WrenBoy

Omackeral wrote: »

Probably be vilified for not taking it actually. I wonder how many just go along with it to avoid the sh*tstorm.

Seems to be the modus operandi

elvui

elvui wrote: »

I have a mad Idea, Drop taking the Knee and put collection buckets inside the turnstiles for people to donate to the anti racism cause.

**** that chief. If you had no change you'd be accused of supporting lynching.

gormdubhgorm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Feels like we’re going round in circles on here… we all know exactly why the knee was the chosen move by the premier league captains, and that it was for the visually clear anti-racist message that came with it from Kaepernick … the links to their conversations, and an interview with David McGoldrick - the originator of bring it to football - were all posted here last night, detailing why he did it, and that it was a completely non-political stance.

Incidentally, had they chosen something else to do before project restart, whatever that thing was would now also be classed as political.

I am sorry this is complete rubbish why all the BLM stuff on T-Shirts?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53030146

The PL then dropped the BLM badge and changed it to 'no room for racism'

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/sep/10/premier-league-drop-black-lives-matter-badge-from-shirts-for-own-campaign

While the players KEPT 'taking the knee' craic which is well known as the BLM symbol and associated with them.

Why not just stand in silence like Wilfried Zaha, he does not take the knee?
It is clear that he is not associated with the BLM 'taking the knee' craze.

https://www.football.london/crystal-palace-fc/crystal-palace-taking-the-knee-20780076

MrStuffins

Omackeral wrote: »

Off the top of my head, it was literally said on this thread that if you don’t agree with taking the knee you are either a) racist or b) stupid.

But that's not what you were claiming, is it?

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

Wouldn’t support them publicly? Would you ever go and sh*te. I have never uttered one racist thing to another person since I’ve hit puberty. I would call out any individual slight made in my presence. I do not subscribe to the notion that poor old black people need white me on my knees. I wouldn’t insult them by assuming. Take people at face value as you find them. Not by jumping on bandwagons and joining the hive mind. I’ll do me and be a decent bloke. I won’t apologise for other **** behaviour but if I see it happening in my circle, I’ll call it out. That’s real world talk by the way. Much harder than changing a profile pic or taking a knee.

Yeah you do you, don't listen to anyone else who might be experiencing things you maybe don't understand.
Any sign of empathy or support is weakness yada yada yada.........

Fr D Maugire

Tell me how wrote: »

Weren't you talking about giant leaps just a few minutes ago?

I mean this is off the charts.
Not least equating in some way the call for black people in america to be treated fairly with the actions of the Nazi's.

But for the record, you are saying that if you're friends were being targeted and you were told, by them, that kneeling for 10-20 seconds at a specific moment was an act of solidarity towards them, you'd still refuse to do so.

If it was a single incidence, I am sure most would do it, but to do it every single week, when it appears to have no real effect other than to show how much empathy you have to the World. No.

elvui

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I would say it’s linked to the ethos of Black Lives Matter, the phrase. The vast majority of people don’t even particularly know what Black Lives Matter - the organisation - stand for beyond general anti-racism and anti-police brutality.

As a good quick test, if the word ‘Marxist’ comes to someone’s mind when they see the knee, that’s a fairly sure fire way of knowing they’re in the niche group getting told their opinions by the likes of Farage, and are also the people for whom any Black pushback will be seen negatively.

So Are we to believe sky news and the FA had no idea what BLM meant while plastering the logo about ?

I don't believe I have mentioned Marxist.

~Rebel~

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sorry this is complete rubbish why all the BLM stuff on T-Shirts?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53030146

The PL then dropped the BLM badge and changed it to 'no room for racism'

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/sep/10/premier-league-drop-black-lives-matter-badge-from-shirts-for-own-campaign

While the players KEPT 'taking the knee' craic which is well known as the BLM symbol and associated with them.

Why not just stand in silence like Wilfried Zaha, he does not take the knee?
It is clear that he is not associated with the BLM 'taking the knee' craze.

https://www.football.london/crystal-palace-fc/crystal-palace-taking-the-knee-20780076

Not going back through it again for ya, Didzy’s own interview, and Troy Deeney’s insight about the PL captains meeting were all posted last night.

MrStuffins

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Ironically, during my time in the UK, I probably had more derogatory remarks made to my face, but I think that is the norm in England particularly.

So England has a problem with casual racism you say?

If only someone started a campaign to highlight this................ :pac:

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

I’d be like lads let’s smash the f*ck out of this lot out here on the pitch and get the three points.

So you'd be able to completely dismiss the experience of team mates who are being racially abused and just focus on winning the match.

You sound like you're writing a scene for Dream Team in the 90's

Omackeral

The concept of nuance is absolutely forgotten these days in some circles it seems. You’re either a snowflake or a Nazi. Nothing in between. You voted for SSM, you’re a wokie. You don’t agree with taking a knee, you’re an intolerant racist. It’s a sorry state of affairs. There’s shades of grey everywhere. It’s not always black and white, pun definitely intended.

gormdubhgorm

Tell me how wrote: »

No one is implying the bit in bold and as a consequence the rest of your post is mostly redundant.

One thing is noteworthy however, many of the responses and accusations levelled at BLM supporters over the last year and by some form of perceived association which persists at this point were also levelled at civil rights campaigners in the 60's? Do you see much evidence of people laughing at those campaigners now?

I suspect that this will be looked on as a stepping stone towards a place where racism is experienced less in public settings and is such a means to an end. No one now, or at any point has suggested that taking the knee in and of itself is going to solve anything.

You have already said it yourself that taking the knee makes a difference!

Stepping stone me eye - most people will only laugh at it in years to come. And it will be only the same groups self congratulating each other.

As John Barnes said football cannot solve the problems of racism

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/american-football/ex-england-star-john-barnes-says-football-cant-solve-racism/ar-AAKTFcv

Barnes said:

'I'm 100% behind Gareth to try to win the euros but he doesn't understand how complex racism is and solutions are even more complicated and he and the team are being used by the system to DEFLECT from REAL inequality in the inner cities by SOLELY focusing and concentrating on football.'

He also reiterated his support for Wilfried Zaha, the Crystal Palace and Ivory Coast winger, who was the first in the Premier League not to make the gesture, insisting it had become 'degrading' and had lost all meaning.

Barnes added: 'If Wilfried Zaha played for England and decided not to take the knee, would Southgate then say we won't take the knee and we’ll support him?

'What does GARETH think is the right thing to do? Take the knee, don't take the knee, or just support what the players want?'

'What practical action has been taken in the last year?

'None, apart from whether or not to keep taking the knee to highlight the problem.

‘Football cannot solve racism, society can, councils can, governments can, depending on what your interpretation of racism is.'

--

But god bless you naivety and idealism. You have really brought into the 'taking a knee' making a difference.
I wonder how long it will take you to realise that you have been sold a pup?

elvui

Omackeral wrote: »

The concept of nuance is absolutely forgotten these days in some circles it seems. You’re either a snowflake or a Nazi. Nothing in between. You voted for SSM, you’re a wokie. You don’t agree with taking a knee, you’re an intolerant racist. It’s a sorry state of affairs. There’s shades of grey everywhere. It’s not always black and white, pun definitely intended.

I voted for SSM but doubt that will win me any points :P

MrStuffins

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sorry I found this comment hilarious.

No need to apologise. It's not your fault you can't tell the difference between a comment and a question, and the fact that you completely missed the context in which the question was asked.

No hard feelings

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

So you'd be able to completely dismiss the experience of team mates who are being racially abused and just focus on winning the match.

I’m there to play football. Anyone racially abuses anyone on the pitch, they’ll be getting a nice rake of the studs down the back of the legs.