Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Tell me how

elvui wrote: »

I asked show Racist posts not accusations.

You want them from this thread.

This is the post my response was to.

tailorspy wrote: »

Going right back to the original post in an attempt to get back on topic.

I would love to see if there was an overlap between the rise/proliferation of social media and the re-emergence of the racist behaviour in stadiums. Does one fuel the other - are they the same people?

Neither here, or in my response did I refer to this thread. Try again.

nolivesmatter

Tell me how wrote: »

This is scape-goating people who agree that the protests have merit in order to absolve themselves from owning their own views and decisions.

The arguments and merits of the protests are fairly clear. Think about them and come up with a position and own it, but don't seek to blame others for you not supporting it if that's where you end up.

I'm not saying the pro-kneelers are responsible for the beliefs the opposition have. In the end of course everyone is responsible for themselves and the views they hold.

But someone said that the kneeling is having an effect because we're talking about it. I don't see what positive effect has come from talking about it here. All I've seen is further polarization. Eventually, if you want to bridge the gap between the sides you need to engage in good faith rather than just writing people off as racist.

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

Hmmm. Some teams have everyone bending the knee and others have no one bending the knee. Could be a million to one coincidence, or just maybe they are told what to do when in front of the cameras. Couldn’t be more publicly pressurised than that.

You are literally giving an example of where some are not taking bending the knee while arguing that there is pressure on them to bend the knee.

Is it completely impossible to consider that both teams made their own decisions?

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

You want them from this thread.

This is the post my response was to.



Neither here, or in my response did I refer to this thread. Try again.

You say it's so proliferate, Yet when asked cannot produce any evidence. The previous post was worded in a nebulous way to encompass the whole web. If it's that prolific it should be in this very thread. Your original response to me was an accusation of me asking where I had been racist.

Tell me how

nolivesmatter wrote: »

I'm not saying the pro-kneelers are responsible for the beliefs the opposition have. In the end of course everyone is responsible for themselves and the views they hold.

But someone said that the kneeling is having an effect because we're talking about it. I don't see what positive effect has come from talking about it here. All I've seen is further polarization. Eventually, if you want to bridge the gap between the sides you need to engage in good faith rather than just writing people off as racist.

Nothing is going to happen because of a singular debate on an anonymous internet forum.
But the debate as it is publicly is likely to lead to more incidents of booing more than it is going to lead to more incidents of kneeling and if that is the case, then it is more likely that the authorities will act in a meaningful way.

The booing is what is likely to be the trigger for action but that booing needs the kneeling and the debate in order for it be significant.

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

Nothing is going to happen because of a singular debate on an anonymous internet forum.
But the debate as it is publicly is likely to lead to more incidents of booing more than it is going to lead to more incidents of kneeling and if that is the case, then it is more likely that the authorities will act in a meaningful way.

The booing is what is likely to be the trigger for action but that booing needs the kneeling and the debate in order for it be significant.

And of the booing leads to the kneeling being banned under political demonstrations you would be fine with that yes.

elvui

elvui wrote: »

You say it's so proliferate, Yet when asked cannot produce any evidence. The previous post was worded in a nebulous way to encompass the whole web. If it's that prolific it should be in this very thread. Your original response to me was an accusation of me asking where I had been racist.

Crypto-racists.

They're everywhere.

Man, being called a racist these days means absolutely nothing. I'm apparently Boards' resident racist.

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

You are literally giving an example of where some are not taking bending the knee while arguing that there is pressure on them to bend the knee.

Is it completely impossible to consider that both teams made their own decisions?

I’d be fairly confident in almost all cases all the players are being pressurised. If they were free to choose some would kneel and some wouldn’t. A sports team is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, and that should not be extended to the players political opinions.

Tell me how

elvui wrote: »

You say it's so proliferate, Yet when asked cannot produce any evidence. The previous post was worded in a nebulous way to encompass the whole web. If it's that prolific it should be in this very thread. Your original response to me was an accusation of me asking where I had been racist.

I refer you to post #1159.
You're new here so obviously haven't read it or maybe most of the thread itself.

But again, let me clarify, this latest discussion was about online in general, you are seeking to narrow the goalposts to this thread for some reason.

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

I’d be fairly confident in almost all cases all the players are being pressurised. If they were free to choose some would kneel and some wouldn’t. A sports team is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, and that should not be extended to the players political opinions.

Wilfred Zaha has stood while others around him have kneeled and he hasn't expressed any concern that he was pressured to behave differently. Nor have I seen it suggested that he should.

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

Wilfred Zaha has stood while others around him have kneeled and he hasn't expressed any concern that he was pressured to behave differently. Nor have I seen it suggested that he should.

Yeah Id imagine censoring a black footballer would go down well in the optics.

Tell me how

elvui wrote: »

Yeah Id imagine censoring a black footballer would go down well in the optics.

So we agree he's not being pressured.

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

So we agree he's not being pressured.

I would say not by default. Can you imagine the story broke that he was had a word to by the management to toe the line. ;P

Tell me how

elvui wrote: »

And of the booing leads to the kneeling being banned under political demonstrations you would be fine with that yes.

If you are suggesting that authorities would act to shield racists through banning people from protesting them, then I absolutely would not be ok with that. Would you?

Although, such an act might bring things to a head where even more attention is drawn to the need for the authorities to change.

elvui

Tell me how wrote: »

If you are suggesting that authorities would act to shield racists through banning people from protesting them, then I absolutely would not be ok with that. Would you?

Although, such an act might bring things to a head where even more attention is drawn to the need for the authorities to change.

I thought it was not a protest ? Just a silent gesture. Were getting somewhere now.

is_that_so

Tell me how wrote: »

Wilfred Zaha has stood while others around him have kneeled and he hasn't expressed any concern that he was pressured to behave differently. Nor have I seen it suggested that he should.

He chose to stop doing it on the grounds that kneeling has just become a part of the pre-match routine, a point raised numerous times on this thread. He is ,however, a big supporter of the far less public approaches that are needed as are many of us.

nolivesmatter

Tell me how wrote: »

Nothing is going to happen because of a singular debate on an anonymous internet forum.
But the debate as it is publicly is likely to lead to more incidents of booing more than it is going to lead to more incidents of kneeling and if that is the case, then it is more likely that the authorities will act in a meaningful way.

The booing is what is likely to be the trigger for action but that booing needs the kneeling and the debate in order for it be significant.

What do you think would be a meaningful way for the authorities to act? I've seen people call for the booing to be banned. But that only masks the issue IMO.

If people are booing I think it's important to really understand why. Something about the message being given off by kneeling isn't clicking with a lot of people and I don't think it's as simple as all of those people just being racist.

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

Wilfred Zaha has stood while others around him have kneeled and he hasn't expressed any concern that he was pressured to behave differently. Nor have I seen it suggested that he should.

The exception proves the rule.

dog_pig

Retr0gamer wrote: »

That racism isn't confined to Ireland?

It's extremely disappointing that you would refuse to respond to a genuine question, it would make me question where you are being genuine at all.

Shocking behaviour from a moderator to be honest.

Fr D Maugire

Tell me how wrote: »

Nothing is going to happen because of a singular debate on an anonymous internet forum.
But the debate as it is publicly is likely to lead to more incidents of booing more than it is going to lead to more incidents of kneeling and if that is the case, then it is more likely that the authorities will act in a meaningful way.

The booing is what is likely to be the trigger for action but that booing needs the kneeling and the debate in order for it be significant.

I see what you are saying, but what would give you confidence that will happen? Will the government step in to put pressure on social media giants to control what happens on their platforms based on fans booing taking of the knee? If the problem is kicked down the road as Governments are wont to do. What then?

The idea of a problem being solved through creating division is not one I would subscribe to, I don't think that worked too well in the US as it has pushed people to their respective sides and swallowing only what they want to believe, and it swept out into almost ever aspect of American life and will take years to heal if it ever does.

Edit: Aren't the likes of Twitter, Facebook US based comapnies so surely the onus would be on the US Government to clamp down and that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

is_that_so

dog_pig wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that you would refuse to respond to a genuine question, it would make me question where you are being genuine at all.

Shocking behaviour from a moderator to be honest.

Just a poster in this thread and nobody is obligated to answer any question from anyone.

Tell me how

nolivesmatter wrote: »

What do you think would be a meaningful way for the authorities to act? I've seen people call for the booing to be banned. But that only masks the issue IMO.

Already answered.

Tell me how wrote: »

My suggestion is that the clubs and stadiums act to identify, remove, ban and charge those behaving inappropriately depending on the severity of the offence as laws allow.
And that governing bodies fine and ban teams who are not attempting to identify people behaving in this way.
I agree with the kneeling because it is drawing attention to the need for action and the more conversation there is around it then the more likely clubs/national teams and governing bodies are likely to eventually act appropriately.

In relation to this point.

nolivesmatter wrote: »

If people are booing I think it's important to really understand why. Something about the message being given off by kneeling isn't clicking with a lot of people and I don't think it's as simple as all of those people just being racist.

Some of it is outright discomfort at being told to respect black footballers but I suspect these are small numbers of people in most stadiums.
I think much more is down to people equating the booing with another campaign that they see as PC motivated, or virtue signaling or whatever brand of attention seeking they want to put on it and so they react against that.

But I don't think it is true to say that it isn't clicking with a lot of people, I think it doesn't take many people to make a significant noise when booing as all other people are being silent. In fact, in a 50K seater stadium, I reckon if 5,000 were booing and 45,000 staying silent it would sound like a lot but it's still only 10% of people doing so.

GangstaCat

I am really mystified by this thread.

The Irish team has I think 5 POC in the squad and taking the knee has become more than just BLM in America but a global move of protest against racism that is endemic in America, Europe and other western countries where we pride ourselves on equality and fairness.

Our own players were booed, white and black, and they all represent our country.

I say fair play to our players and some of the posters here that are aggrieved really have personal issues that it seems they are projecting into wasteful hate.

COYBIG and **** anyone that dares to criticise ANY player that represents our national team on the world stage for showing solidarity with a just cause. These players both white and black are doing more for the Irish population than any of the so called racist patriots who are allied with loyalists up north anyway. You couldn't write it.

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

The exception proves the rule.

Not unless you can show proof of players being pressured which if it is happening, you'd think there'd be widescale examples of that given.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Not unless you can show proof of players being pressured which if it is happening, you'd think there'd be widescale examples of that given.

Again, let them do it.

I have an issue with what it represents, but certainly not about their ability to express themselves

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

Or has the circumstance shifted to support Omackerals contribution to suggest those being racist are always on the pitch?

I never said or suggested that once. Not once. Be good if you could at least acknowledge same. Twisting words to have a narrative in an argument is dishonest.

Tell me how

tailorspy wrote: »

So you admit that some of the people are not booing because they are racist but because they dislike the tokenism, virtue signalling, PC whatever?

I've never said anything differently.

I still have an issue with people dismissing concerns as being tokenistic, PC motivated or whatever because I do think that some, use these reasons for publicly dismissing something when really their motivations are more aligned with the more sinister ones.

And no I'm not going to name names, or link posts or any of that nonsense. I've alluded to the issue with that several times here. But in the same way people form an opinion of me through my posting here, I do of them. What else can we do. I will say that I don't do this lightly but having been involved in several, extended discussions on relevant topics over many years.

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

I never said or suggested that once. Not once. Be good if you could at least acknowledge same. Twisting words to have a narrative in an argument is dishonest.

Forgive me for assuming as much when your solution to the issue was to go in with hard tackles and to rake studs down the back of someone's leg.

You're right, it was definitely me twisting your words.

Faugheen

Deleted User wrote: »

Tell me the specifics of where I said that. Was it when I said I wouldn't cry about someone tackling someone hard in a football match?

And I've said REPEATEDLY that I have no issue if people want to kneel, once they have no issue with being booed. They've made their choice.

And I do have a balanced view. Much more balanced than most as I encounter racism from both sides.

But you never, ever call out the extremism from posters who share your view about kneeling or BLM. I never once said that you are the one who holds the extremism.

You are always there to argue with anyone who believes that those who have such an issue with this have racist tendencies, but you don't say anything about those who say that kneeling supports a terrorist grouping.

I support the footballers kneeling and if I was on the pitch with them I would kneel too. Does that mean I support a terrorist organisation and am therefore a terrorist sympathiser?

If you say no, then I would expect you to put your balanced hat on and call out that provocative nonsense for what it is. However, you don't. You are more than happy for people you disagree with being called supporters of terrorism and communism and Marxism etc etc and but you make it your mission to speak up if the word racist is thrown at anybody.

That's why its hard to take anything you say seriously. You will fight and fight against people being called racists but if that same person calls someone you disagree with a supporter of terrorism or communism then you are nowhere to be found.

That's not a balanced view. That is taking sides. Either provocative language (from either side) is ok or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

gormdubhgorm

GangstaCat wrote: »

I am really mystified by this thread.

The Irish team has I think 5 POC in the squad and taking the knee has become more than just BLM in America but a global move of protest against racism that is endemic in America, Europe and other western countries where we pride ourselves on equality and fairness.

Our own players were booed, white and black, and they all represent our country.

I say fair play to our players and some of the posters here that are aggrieved really have personal issues that it seems they are projecting into wasteful hate.

COYBIG and **** anyone that dares to criticise ANY player that represents our national team on the world stage for showing solidarity with a just cause. These players both white and black are doing more for the Irish population than any of the so called racist patriots who are allied with loyalists up north anyway. You couldn't write it.

Again more rubbish you have basically implied that anyone who does not agree with this taking the knee craic is racist.
That is sick stuff in my opinion.

I have already said for instance that I agree with the lines that

Wilfried Zaha has taken on it - he said it is embarrassing to him as black player

Les Ferdinand - said 'taking the knee' was pointless and quickly becomes going through the motions.

John Barnes - called taking the knee 'tokenism' and achieves nothing.

-

The real problem as I see is the misguided insincere nature of modern society fuelled by the internet. And the Americanisation of the world. There is a lot of that on boards.ie. You only have to look at the threads.

It becomes little to do with anything meaningful/sincere except noise. Just copy cat stuff. 'Look at me I care' vibe. Why not do something useful then? Youth work, volunteer in something related to the cause?

Racism is caused by society and can only be fixed by those in government and those who work at local level. 'Gestures' on a football pitch do nothing to stop racism, it is only a misguided or worse insincere bandwagon.

People go to a football match to see football. Unless it is tied into a charity event/memorial I do not expect a cause to brought into it.

I have already said that when there was a moments applause for a boy from England who died of cancer. A Sunderland soccer supporter. It was organised by some Dublin fans on FB at Croke Park.
It was done at a certain minute. The boy was 'trending' that week on social media.

Edit: Bradley Lowery Sunderland fan

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/07/sunderland-fan-bradley-lowery-dies-aged-six-after-cancer-fight

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/dublin-kildare-fans-join-minutes-13306387

I found it extremely odd, as it had nothing to with the GAA whatsoever. It was merely copying what English soccer supporters did. There was a real insincerity about it. And a 'look at me' bandwagon vibe about it. No real sincerity, it annoyed me.

The 'taking a knee' situation has the same vibe about it only on a bigger scale. Except this time those who are misguided and want to shoehorn a cause into soccer are some management of International teams. Social media and the internet age loves a 'cause' to sympathise with. But now it infringing on others enjoyment of a passtime - ie watching a soccer match.

It is not that I am embarrassed by the players taking a knee, I am embarrassed FOR the players. A similar line of thought to that of Zaha. And I also think it has already lost meaning like Les Ferdinand. And I think think is pointless like John Barnes.

Good PR for people who are like minded that is all. People who have codded themselves that 'taking the knee' is making a difference. Besides PR and self congratulations it does nothing practical at all.

--

As as for the Irish national team both black and white doing their bit. If they were purple and green it does not change that they have only won - one game in 13 v Andorra. But that is for a different thread.