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Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

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    #1772
    NoLuckLarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭NoLuckLarry


    Rothko wrote: »
    What are you on about? :confused:

    Gently floating in the wind, melting, wind *clicks fingers*


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    #1773
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,883 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I don't know how some people can't see why populations in Eastern Europe having been on the receiving end of communism might have issues with collective virtue signalling.

    It wouldn't be just the BLM stuff but on lots of issues.

    It's the hard leftism underneath these things most of those booing would have the issue with, not racism.

    They have seen all this before.

    Do the booing fans believe the England football team to be a far left outfit?


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    #1774
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭Polar101


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It's the hard leftism underneath these things most of those booing would have the issue with, not racism.

    They have seen all this before.

    So the East Europeans are actually booing at the Soviet Union (which collapsed before most of them were born)? What are the English booing at then?


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    #1775
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,574 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Polar101 wrote: »
    So the East Europeans are actually booing at the Soviet Union (which collapsed before most of them were born)? What are the English booing at then?

    David Squires explains

    marx.png


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    #1776
    archfi
    Registered Users Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭archfi


    MisterAnarchy wrote: »
    Miguel says



    So its primarily about social media abuse and systemic racism according to him , is that what we are meant to understand ?

    It's pretty easy to de-arm the actual racist, violent, threatening etc tweets and posts on social media.
    Report, mute/block.
    Job done.
    It would be great if the defualt setting of a lot of people on SM wasn't to take offence quite so easily (I'm not talking about actual racism, threats of violence etc) on their own behalf and bizarrely on behalf of others and not to use the functions just because they disagree with someones viewpoint.

    The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.

    The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.



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    #1777
    PuddingBreath
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭PuddingBreath


    MisterAnarchy wrote: »
    Miguel says



    So its primarily about social media abuse and systemic racism according to him , is that what we are meant to understand ?

    There is very little racism in grounds nowadays, its not like back in the 80's when it was rife and players took terrible stick.
    That has thankfully been largely eradicated.

    Can online abuse be eliminated, no I don't see how it can and even if it could its up to the internet service providers like Twitter, Facebook, etc to do something about, not footballers.
    Any disgruntled person in their own home can send material to players on a social platform.
    There is literally no filter, you are opening yourself up to the whole world when you go on something like Twitter.
    There will always be rival fans, disgruntled and bitter people with an axe to grind.

    Take any Liverpool Man Utd game at Anfield for example and the stick that Utd players get when taking a throw or a corner, its shocking.
    Literally the first 6-7 rows of people on their feet roaring obscenities.
    Is that abuse ok if not of a racial nature, you Manc **** etc ?
    Its the same at Old Trafford.
    This tribal warfare is embedded in English football.

    I dont see how taking a knee, which has large connotations to a thuggish organisation like BLM will actually remedy any of the above.
    Its virtue signalling.


    this is what i dislike about the racism carry on, yes racism is terrible, but so is loads of other types of abuse, e.g. as you say scousers abusing mancs and vice versa. you would get sacked from your job for they way some of these people behave if it was in a workplace, but go to a football ground and is't ok to hurl pretty much any abuse except racism and even to physically attack with objects. Liverpool have gotten away with murder recently by attacking rival team's buses multiple times. now, if they were racially abusing someone then merseyside police might have done something about it.


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    #1778
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I don't know how some people can't see why populations in Eastern Europe having been on the receiving end of communism might have issues with collective virtue signalling.

    It wouldn't be just the BLM stuff but on lots of issues.

    It's the hard leftism underneath these things most of those booing would have the issue with, not racism.

    They have seen all this before.

    A - no one is advocating communist ideals to people in eastern Europe.

    B - suggesting protesting against racism is advocating for any sort of Marxist ideals is deliberately conflating the issue.

    C - Maybe if you and others realised these facts you might be on board with helping to target racism instead of trying come up with yet another way of misrepresenting what is going on.


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    #1779
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Tell me how wrote: »
    A - no one is advocating communist ideals to people in eastern Europe.

    B - suggesting protesting against racism is advocating for any sort of Marxist ideals is deliberately conflating the issue.

    C - Maybe if you and others realised these facts you might be on board with helping to target racism instead of trying come up with yet another way of misrepresenting what is going on.

    The conflation was done by those who aligned themselves with BLM, not us. How is it our fault that people were/are supporting a movement that they didn't truly understand? It reminds me of the "abolish the police" stuff awhile back, where you were laying the blame on the people who took the statement literally, and not the people who had supposedly chosen their words badly.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #1780
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I don't know how some people can't see why populations in Eastern Europe having been on the receiving end of communism might have issues with collective virtue signalling.

    It wouldn't be just the BLM stuff but on lots of issues.

    It's the hard leftism underneath these things most of those booing would have the issue with, not racism.

    They have seen all this before.

    Conveniently ignoring that Orban is an authoritarian leader that has utilised hate speech and is rapidly becoming an authoritarian leader. You can rant about the hard left but Orban is the opposite end. Meanwhile this Marxism link is pretty weak....


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    #1781
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Conveniently ignoring that Orban is an authoritarian leader that has utilised hate speech and is rapidly becoming an authoritarian leader. You can rant about the hard left but Orban is the opposite end. Meanwhile this Marxism link is pretty weak....

    Don't both ends utilise hate speech, they just change so they hate /target?


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    #1782
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    Don't both ends utilise hate speech, they just change so they hate /target?

    Well since this protest is specifically about racism, no... There's not any similarity.


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    #1783
    Ernesto Tiny Suspect
    Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Ernesto Tiny Suspect


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I don't know how some people can't see why populations in Eastern Europe having been on the receiving end of communism might have issues with collective virtue signalling.

    Communism is classless, stateless, society.

    So, whatever Eastern Europe was on the receiving end of, it wasn't communism.


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    #1784
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Tell me how wrote: »
    A - no one is advocating communist ideals to people in eastern Europe.

    B - suggesting protesting against racism is advocating for any sort of Marxist ideals is deliberately conflating the issue.

    C - Maybe if you and others realised these facts you might be on board with helping to target racism instead of trying come up with yet another way of misrepresenting what is going on.

    The notion that you must comply and bend the knee or show your approval of such for the good of society to prove your worth to the collective and if you don't you are racist and somehow condone racism is not a misrepresention.

    That's what's going on.

    That is a form of socialism and one element of communism that those people have lived through and have no intention of living through again.

    They can see crystal clearly what you are unwilling or unable to see. They know exactly how dangerous and insidious this stuff is.


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    #1785
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,598 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    They can see crystal clearly what you are unwilling or unable to see. They know exactly how dangerous and insidious this stuff is.

    It’s the forcing that is an issue rather than the kneeling. Any team with everyone kneeling involves forcing, there is no doubt about that. There are many ways of forcing people and manipulating by causing fear through certain statements is likely how this is generally being done.

    Forcing teams not to kneel also is just as bad.

    Things have got overly complicated now that certain political statements now are allowed as part of football matches.


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    #1786
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The notion that you must comply and bend the knee or show your approval of such for the good of society to prove your worth to the collective and if you don't you are racist and somehow condone racism is not a misrepresention.

    That's what's going on.

    That is a form of socialism and one element of communism that those people have lived through and have no intention of living through again.

    They can see crystal clearly what you are unwilling or unable to see. They know exactly how dangerous and insidious this stuff is.

    You don't like forcing of conformity but Orban's regime actively pushes that. Eg press freedom has dropped substantially under Orban so basically the expectation is you keep in line with regime propaganda. So this claim that the crowd are booing over allowing diversity of opinion is nonsense and you're ignoring the political situation in the country.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/journalists-resign-at-hungary-s-top-news-site-in-row-over-press-freedom-1.4312856?mode=amp


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    #1787
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Communism is classless, stateless, society.

    So, whatever Eastern Europe was on the receiving end of, it wasn't communism.

    The Communism you speak of is purely theoretical. Communist movements always become Class ridden, brutally controlling and repressing. The old cadres are nearly always oppressed in time.

    It's the nature of the ideology but mostly of the mindset and psychological type that drives it forward.

    A more concentrated form of the never ending need to split and fight colleagues in the Left.


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    #1788
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The notion that you must comply and bend the knee or show your approval of such for the good of society to prove your worth to the collective and if you don't you are racist and somehow condone racism is not a misrepresention.

    That's what's going on.

    That is a form of socialism and one element of communism that those people have lived through and have no intention of living through again.

    They can see crystal clearly what you are unwilling or unable to see. They know exactly how dangerous and insidious this stuff is.

    One thing I find particularly fascinating on this thread is that some /many of the people who get ruffled over others being quick to extremify their misgivings about the Knee gesture (i.e. labelling it as racism invariably) then themselves perform the exact same exercise of extremification by calling the Knee gesture Marxist.

    Yes, there is a tokenistic element to the Knee, yes there is an element of social obligation that renders it less meaningful, yes there is an unfair rush to slap the racist label on anyone who has misgivings about doing it. There are also good things about it, and for many people out there (not least, black footballers who have been harassed in stadiums with monkey chanting and banana throwing) there is a genuine and sincere motivation to the gesture. But then if we take something like the Poppy in the UK, are we saying that the tokenism / social obligation / moral outrage that arises when someone doesn’t wear one means that the often Right-leaning people who get most ruffled about this are ...Communists?

    The people who don’t like how others leap to slap racism or fascism over everything would probably do well to remember that leaping to slap Marxism over everything is just as bad. Doing so makes someone sound every bit as hysterical and overtheatrical as the people often decried as snowflakes.


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    #1789
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ArthurDayne wrote: »
    But then if we take something like the Poppy in the UK, are we saying that the tokenism / social obligation / moral outrage that arises when someone doesn’t wear one means that the often Right-leaning people who get most ruffled about this are ...Communists?

    It's a good point and it's exactly the same. They may claim to be "right wing" but not in the socially liberal sense.

    Because that sort of "comply or else" thing is the very opposite of the liberal freedoms western democracies are built on.

    If someone wants to be racist or bigoted they have the freedom to be so. It will make their world a small lonely place but it's their choice.


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    #1790
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You don't like forcing of conformity but Orban's regime actively pushes that. Eg press freedom has dropped substantially under Orban so basically the expectation is you keep in line with regime propaganda. So this claim that the crowd are booing over allowing diversity of opinion is nonsense and you're ignoring the political situation in the country.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/journalists-resign-at-hungary-s-top-news-site-in-row-over-press-freedom-1.4312856?mode=amp

    The people of Hungary have a right to decide who represents them. Personally I think he is repulsive but it's not a choice for me who they choose.

    I also don't see what it has to do with the discussion on the knee.


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    #1791
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It's a good point and it's exactly the same. They may claim to be "right wing" but not in the socially liberal sense.

    Because that sort of "comply or else" thing is the very opposite of the liberal freedoms western democracies are built on.

    If someone wants to be racist or bigoted they have the freedom to be so. It will make their world a small lonely place but it's their choice.

    I think we need to divorce the concepts of social obligation and political ideology though as, though they of course interact and intertwine, I don’t think that social obligation attaches to just one form of political ideology — plus I don’t think it always has to be shoehorned into political ideology where often it just comes down to cultural convention.

    Another example for demonstration is national anthems, which of course encompasses a whole constellation of countries, political systems and traditions. I think we would agree that standing and respecting your country’s national anthem is — somewhat universally — a social obligation. But why? A lot of people stand without really caring, they might not particularly like the song or in that moment be arsed standing listening to it (for me, the anthem played over some tannoy at GAA club matches is usually particularly kind of grim’). In other words, standing for the anthem can sometimes just be a token gesture people do because everyone else is doing it and it’s not worth the flak or outrage not doing it (and of course there are many who stand out of a sincere motivation, much like the Knee gesture). But there would still be a level of anger and outrage if big groups of people suddenly stopped standing for the anthem in Croke Park or Lansdowne Road wouldn’t there? So is that Marxism? Fascism? Or just a thing that has become a thing and we kind of just accept that there are sincere and insincere aspects to it all that don’t necessarily have to be extremified into some hyperbolic accusation of extremism or grand conspiracy?


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    #1792
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The people of Hungary have a right to decide who represents them. Personally I think he is repulsive but it's not a choice for me who they choose.

    I also don't see what it has to do with the discussion on the knee.

    You're claiming it's all some stand against Marxism and Hungarians wanting to allow diversity of opinion etc. But the reality is the government they elected opposes a diversity of opinion so it's not some cerebral leftover from hatred of communism and far more likely due to racists being racist.


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    #1793
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    I see Ronan Mullen has come out in support of of the oppressed Hungarians now, that settles it for me anyway.


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    #1794
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You're claiming it's all some stand against Marxism and Hungarians wanting to allow diversity of opinion etc. But the reality is the government they elected opposes a diversity of opinion so it's not some cerebral leftover from hatred of communism and far more likely due to racists being racist.

    So you think the voters in Hungary are racist?


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    #1795
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    So you think the voters in Hungary are racist?

    I would say they've elected a leader who has tended to push anti semitism, xenophobia, homopohobia and racism as part of his rhetoric. So ya, I think it's realistic to say a proportion of them are. I would say those booing most likely were. This is a bit like excitedly asking in 1936 if antisemitism is an issue with German voters... The reality is that the Hungarian government is a far right nationalist government that is a prime example of a country eroding civil rights...

    So contrasts to Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy are entirely relevant.


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    #1796
    extra gravy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,625 ✭✭✭✭extra gravy


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    So you think the voters in Hungary are racist?

    Those who voted for Orban elected a racist. What does that say about the voters?


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    #1797
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I would say they've elected a leader who has tended to push anti semitism, xenophobia, homopohobia and racism as part of his rhetoric. So ya, I think it's realistic to say a proportion of them are. I would say those booing most likely were. This is a bit like excitedly asking in 1936 if antisemitism is an issue with German voters... The reality is that the Hungarian government is a far right nationalist government that is a prime example of a country eroding civil rights...

    So contrasts to Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy are entirely relevant.

    Leaving aside the fact you clearly think enough of a proportion of the population are just racist to elect Orban's govt (a charge patently ludicrous) my real question is what does it have to do with you?

    Doesn't this just make you one of those interfering busy bodies who wants to go around policing everyone's thoughts? You're even extending it to how people should vote in countries that you might not understand the nuances and political complexities within.

    This is part of the problem in my opinion.


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    #1798
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    extra gravy wrote: »
    Those who voted for Orban elected a racist. What does that say about the voters?

    It's a similar situation in Poland, are Polish voters racist too?


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    #1799
    extra gravy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,625 ✭✭✭✭extra gravy


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It's a similar situation in Poland, are Polish voters racist too?

    Similar question, if you vote for a racist what does that make you?


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    #1800
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,761 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    extra gravy wrote: »
    Similar question, if you vote for a racist what does that make you?

    But in what place do you see yourself having the right to label people like that because they elect govts that don't suit your own beliefs?

    They have every right to elect who represents them, as you do.

    I'm struggling to understand why you see it as your business. Have you lived in Hungary or Poland? Do you have insight in to their domestic politics you could share?


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    #1801
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Leaving aside the fact you clearly think enough of a proportion of the population are just racist to elect Orban's govt (a charge patently ludicrous) my real question is what does it have to do with you?

    Doesn't this just make you one of those interfering busy bodies who wants to go around policing everyone's thoughts? You're even extending it to how people should vote in countries that you might not understand the nuances and political complexities within.

    This is part of the problem in my opinion.

    One is a busy body for commenting on the politics of another nation? I'm not actively preventing anyone from voting but I'm perfectly entitled to comment on the state of their politics. Numerous human rights and international bodies have criticized them for what's happened. Equally entitled to do so.

    Would one have been a busy body to criticize the direction of German politics in the 1930s? Do you think anti semitism was a substantial issue in the voting population in 1933 Germany or is that ludicrous too? While yes, in that case there were numerous other factors at play. Anti semetic propaganda was heavily a factor. In the run up to the election of Orban it was xenophobia and and homophobia(also that antisemitic nonsense about Soros being the all evil power).... All of this is incredibly well documented btw.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It's a similar situation in Poland, are Polish voters racist too?

    Plenty of Polish people out there that would concur that both homophobia and racism are huge issues there... That's not saying all Polish people are, I've had Polish people say as much to me for the record. Clearly they've fallen for western propaganda or something.


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