Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

People that don't agree black lives matter.

Read that again and see if you see anything wrong with it.

Really should be Black American Lives Matter, of course.

Did any player do this in Britain before it started in the US.

suicide_circus

extra gravy wrote: »

Yet you and others here are complaining about footballers expressing their opinion. The irony.

Are you not complaining about the fans doing the same?

Danzy

Deleted User wrote: »

I do my bit to fight racism, I treat everyone according to their personality and character, not by their skin colour.

Like, OMG, how common of you. I'm sure all the goys in Finglas pigeon racing club think you are a true hero.

Do you even record it for YouTube.

#BLM

jakiah

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The knee was first taken on 2016. It symbolised a stance against racism. That's a long time before there was a BLM movement.

Can you give a link to say that taking the knee has got anything to do with BLM? Or is it just a racist projection to try and delegitimise the gesture.

The literally had 'Black Lives Matter' written on banners in the stands, on players jerseys and on the screen on Sky Sports for the full 90 minutes when this started in Europe. Now it seems to be about something else entirely, though nobody can really say what?


Of course you knew all this with your deep football knowledge

kildare lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Really should be Black American Lives Matter, of course.

Did any player do this in Britain before it started in the US.

Why would they , unlike what BLM and their supporters would have you believe, cops in England arent going around knocking off black people like what happens in America . They did shoot an armed black criminal called mark duggan about 10 years ago which resulted in major rioting . He'd probably be a saint if it happened today .

What is it exactly that the players want? What do they want the fans to do? Is there a stated goal in mind? "When racism doesn't exist" is impossibly abstract. How will we know when this is achieved? Who will decide that the goal has been reached?

Strumms

Retr0gamer wrote: »

People that don't agree black lives matter.

Read that again and see if you see anything wrong with it.

You agree THAT black lives matter.

That doesn’t mean you have to agree with taking the knee at every football game or event...

If I want to start a 60 second take the knee before my gym class in support of BLM and a couple of people complain ..they have a 45 minute class, lots of sympathy perhaps with the cause / message but wish to ‘get on with it’... they racist now ? Are they saying that black lives don’t matter ?

jaykay74

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you a believer that white people should be quiet when it comes to racial issues if the don't agree wholesale with BLM?

Whats your opinion on loaded questions ?

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

You agree THAT black lives matter.

That doesn’t mean you have to agree with taking the knee at every football game or event...

If I want to start a 60 second take the knee before my gym class in support of BLM and a couple of people complain ..they have a 45 minute class, lots of sympathy perhaps with the cause / message but wish to ‘get on with it’... they racist now ? Are they saying that black lives don’t matter ?

Should it be brought into to other forms entertainment as well? Before watching a film in the cinema or before the 6 o'clock news?

Retr0gamer

Danzy wrote: »

Statistics show that in America, black people are among the highest achieving demographics, and per capital are the demographic most over represented in Wall St. companies.

That's Africans.

In BLM activist circles and supporters, both of which in America are overwhelmingly White middle and up class, there is a nasty undercurrent towards Africans and Asians in America, beacuse both are top performing demographics, by considerable margins.

This is more about narcissism than racism.

Really? When a quick Google search shows that wall street has a diversity problem.

lawred2

Cordell wrote: »

Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

ah here - you can't be serious with that?

Mimon

Danzy wrote: »

Statistics show that in America, black people are among the highest achieving demographics, and per capital are the demographic most over represented in Wall St. companies.

That's Africans.

In BLM activist circles and supporters, both of which in America are overwhelmingly White middle and up class, there is a nasty undercurrent towards Africans and Asians in America, beacuse both are top performing demographics, by considerable margins.

This is more about narcissism than racism.

Educated Africans can obviously get around the system by being educated in the first place and not coming from ghettos created to cordon off former slaves in the US.

That doesn't mean the system isn't rigged against black people who are the ancestors of slaves and subject to a system that has kept them down since.

Way too simplistic to suggest otherwise. The Wire actually covers this very well and shows a lot of kids have zero chance no matter how hard they try.

mcmoustache

FunLover18 wrote: »

I wonder how many fans booing the knee are gonna boo/protest/boycott said world cup. Let's not pretend they're booing the hypocrisy, they're booing a gesture that challenges their own world view and the whataboutery "defence" along with "racism isn't that bad" attitude only goes to show why the knee is needed.

The repetition of "marxism and disrespecting the game" gives it away. It's like they knew that their real reasons for being upset about a gesture would sound a bit racist so they jumped on the first justification that they found online, no matter how stupid it sounded.

completedit

It's to do with Americanisation. That's why people hate it. People may or may not be racist but is it any surprise that footballers decide to mindlessly follow some American protest because Nike told them to?

The Hungarian captain's gesture was the right thing to do. Peace, love and respect are all that matters. The knee just divides the world between colour and further cements the idea of race division.

*Most footballers are young and probably lack critical thinking skills. I'm sure there are footballers that have a very thought out reason for taking the knee but IMO, we shouldn't be slaves to cultural phenomena which are driven and propagated by corporations.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

Looks like a small clique of rich, mostly White people being self indulgent.

People don't believe them.

Ain't that the truth, a load of white Irish lads claiming to know better about racism than the people who actually experience it.

Delusional.

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

Educated Africans can obviously get around the system by being educate in the first place.

That doesn't mean the system isn't rigged against black people who are the ancestors of slaves and subject to a system that has kept them down since.

Way too simplistic to suggest otherwise. The Wire actually covers this very well and shows a lot of kids have zero chance no matter how hard they try.

To me The Wire showed how black kids get trapped within their own community. The ones holding them back are their own kind. That's the most realistic "system" holding them back. It's sad but true.

kildare lad

kildare lad wrote: »

Why would they , unlike what BLM and their supporters would have you believe, cops in England arent going around knocking off black people like what happens in America . They did shoot an armed black criminal called mark duggan about 10 years ago which resulted in major rioting . He'd probably be a saint if it happened today .

Mark was part irish of course, maybe that’s what the cops were shooting at. The Irish bit. Which would be more statistically likely in the U.K.

When is the knee being taken about BallyMurphy, recently found to be a deliberate massacre? Maybe mcclean should wear a shirt and kneel. But that would be against politics in sport.

Mimon

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

Ain't that the truth, a load of white Irish lads claiming to know better about racism than the people who actually experience it.

Delusional.

You're doing the same thing - presuming you are a white Irish man.

This is what black Irish player Chiedozie Ogbene had to say about it. Do you take his opinion on it?

"I was obviously disappointed because we all go through different stories and different histories in our lives.

"This is something that black people have been fighting for many years, discrimination and racism. There is no place for it in any sport, any place. It is what it is, we stayed strong and I’m so happy that we as a team took the knee to show solidarity between us all."

jakiah

mcmoustache wrote: »

The repetition of "marxism and disrespecting the game" gives it away. It's like they knew that their real reasons for being upset about a gesture would sound a bit racist so they jumped on the first justification that they found online, no matter how stupid it sounded.

So is taking a knee currently associated with the Black Lives Matter political movement or not?

Yakov P. Golyadkin

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

Ain't that the truth, a load of white Irish lads claiming to know better about racism than the people who actually experience it.

Delusional.

Irish lads, many of whom, have lived/worked in foreign countries, where being a white person is a minority.... It's shocking, isn't it? Racism exists in other countries, and can be directed towards white people...

And I don't recall anyone claiming that they know racism better than those who experience it.

I won't call you delusional... ignorant fits better.

Danzy

Mimon wrote: »

Educated Africans can obviously get around the system by being educate in the first place.

That doesn't mean the system isn't rigged against black people who are the ancestors of slaves and subject to a system that has kept them down since.

Way too simplistic to suggest otherwise. The Wire actually covers this very well and shows a lot of kids have zero chance no matter how hard they try.

Regardless of education levels. Africans out perform Americans of the same education level.

The biggest challenge that African Americans face is class issues and the incredibly toxic culture that has taken hold in many African American urban areas.

While the rich white kids were marching for BLM last Summer, an entire generation of black owned businesses were burnt out and robbed.

In 20 years, those African American communities will still be trying to get back to where they were.

#BLMsoWhite.

gmisk

paw patrol wrote: »

this is spot on.

none of us are living 100s of years in the past, the notion that we should be ashamed of our past is bizarre. It's a weird concept to make white people self loath and so many fall for it probably more bizarre that the notion itself.

But doesn't apply to africans, jews, arabs or asians...just whitey.

in fact, suggestions of reparations in Nigeria from tribes who sold slaves were laughed at. But some how white people have to feel shame or fork out cash. why is that? why is it suggested the west pay for reparations but no internal soul searching within africa?

what else is at play? cos it certainly isn't soul-cleansing regarding slavery, if that was the case it would apply to all.

That poster literally said "Europe has no history of racism".
I literally pointed out that it has....a long one....
A simple question are there racist incidents in Europe still...yes or no?

The poor oppressed white person nonsense....absolutely laughable.

There is an opening in the telegraph and always time for you in the Daily Mail if you are looking to whine about white people being oppressed, migrants and not being able to say "anything these days" have at it.

extra gravy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Are you not complaining about the fans doing the same?

They're a great bunch of lads sure and not a racist amongst them I'd say.

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

To me The Wire showed how black kids get trapped within their own community. The ones holding them back are their own kind. That's the most realistic "system" holding them back. It's sad but true.

How the hell do you think their society was created and perpetuated in the first place?

Holy Jaysus give me strength but some of the commentry here with zero thought for the contexts/background is laughable.

Danzy

completedit wrote: »

It's to do with Americanisation. That's why people hate it.
.

Activists here and in Britain thinking they went to Sweet Valley High

I wish somebody would warn the boats of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa that are heading across the Med every day that they are heading toward a systemically racist, white supremacist continent. Their lives will be a living hell once they arrive. They should avoid it and either turn back or find somewhere else to migrate to.

Jerry Attrick

Deleted User wrote: »

Should it be brought into to other forms entertainment as well? Before watching a film in the cinema or before the 6 o'clock news?

Definitely before performances of Verdi's Otello. (Although nowadays, white tenors no longer 'black up' when performing in the role.)

Not sure about some of Shakespeare's plays. Are we allowed to be offended at the depiction of Jews in The Merchant of Venice or are we all pro-Palestinian these days?

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

That poster literally said "Europe has no history of racism".

What poster? Could you quote where they said that? I seem to have missed anyone making such a claim.

jakiah

extra gravy wrote: »

They're a great bunch of lads sure and not a racist amongst them I'd say.

Those are just pictures of football fans? Are we now saying that all football fans are racist?

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

To me The Wire showed how black kids get trapped within their own community. The ones holding them back are their own kind. That's the most realistic "system" holding them back. It's sad but true.

This is the funniest thing I've read in ages, thanks for the laugh :pac:

gmisk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What poster? Could you quote where they said that? I seem to have missed anyone making such a claim.

It's literally on the page back

Quote: Cordell
Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.[/b]

TomTomTim

jakiah wrote: »

So is taking a knee currently associated with the Black Lives Matter political movement or not?

This is their go to tactic. Take a pure truth, like that BLM have Marxist roots, then try and turn it into something ridiculous or conspiratorial, even though a quick Google search will show you that it's true.

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

It's literally on the page back

Quote: Cordell
Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

Context. It's important.

Oh, I don't agree with him, but you misrepresented his post.

Mimon

Danzy wrote: »

Regardless of education levels. Africans out perform Americans of the same education level.

The biggest challenge that African Americans face is class issues and the incredibly toxic culture that has taken hold in many African American urban areas.

While the rich white kids were marching for BLM last Summer, an entire generation of black owned businesses were burnt out and robbed.

In 20 years, those African American communities will still be trying to get back to where they were.

#BLMsoWhite.

Never mind the silly hashtag nonsense :pac:

That toxic culture is as a result of a couple of centuries of being downtrodden.

Yes, black people have a responsibility to improve this but the system in the US is still rigged against them so not easy to do.

They are badly let down by a lot of community leaders being corrupt etc also.

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

That poster literally said "Europe has no history of racism".
I literally pointed out that it has....a long one....
A simple question are there racist incidents in Europe still...yes or no?

The poor oppressed white person nonsense....absolutely laughable.

So they had white privilege in the BallyMurphy massacre?

Most of Europe wasn’t involved in the slave trade, those that were are generally the ones in the orbit of the US and involved in continuous imperialism. Maybe protest that.

There is an opening in the telegraph and always time for you in the Daily Mail if you are looking to whine about white people being oppressed, migrants and not being able to say "anything these days" have at it.

He’s probably Irish not British. The dominant group in Britain by the way isn’t “white” it’s English. Whiteness is an entirely American concept.

gmisk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Context. It's important.

Oh, I don't agree with him, but you misrepresented his post.

It's literally highlighted in bold....the as US does part doesn't change the point imo.
Europe has a longer and more horrific history when it comes to that area is the point.

TomTomTim

I see sheep wrote: »

This is the funniest thing I've read in ages, thanks for the laugh :pac:

Another cheap tactic. No counter argument, just mockery. I'd hate to follow a belief system that can't stand on the ground of argumentative strength, who seem to rely on insults and mockery alone as a counter to arguments.

suicide_circus

extra gravy wrote: »

They're a great bunch of lads sure and not a racist amongst them I'd say.

Are you big into football yourself?

extra gravy

jakiah wrote: »

Are we now saying that all football fans are racist?

Nope, are you? It's well known that there is a sizeable racist element amongst England fans. Why do you think they would boo the players taking the knee?

jakiah

TomTomTim wrote: »

This is their go to tactic. Take a pure truth, like that BLM have Marxist roots, then try and turn it into something ridiculous or conspiratorial, even though a quick Google search will show you that it's true.

The whole 'marxism' bit is a reach. Personally I dont care about the particular political ideology, I dont want any political movements or gestures made such an overt part of the offical matchday experience.


I found the poppy nonsense farcical and I find this farcical. I see a lot of people who followed UK football and objected to the poppy propaganda suddenly change their tune for this 'anti-racism or something' protest. Its hypocrisy of the highest order.

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

How the hell do you think their society was created and perpetuated in the first place?

Holy Jaysus give me strength but some of the commentry here with zero thought for the contexts/background is laughable.

I don't know bu I assume you blame white people for all the problems? How do you propose their society be improved? Africans are arriving to America and leapfrogging black Americans in terms of wealth etc. They are not being discriminated against on the colour of the skin. On the contrary the drive for diversity, affirmative action etc is arguably helping them. What more should white people do, and is there something within black communities that could change also? A mindset shift perhaps?

TomTomTim

jakiah wrote: »

The whole 'marxism' bit is a reach. Personally I dont care about the particular political ideology, I dont want any political movements or gestures made an official part of the matchday experience.


I found the poppy nonsense farcical and I find this farcical. I see a lot of people who followed UK football and objected to the poppy propaganda suddenly change their tune for this 'anti-racism or something' protest. Its hypocrisy of the highest order.

It's not a reach at all. The leaders of the movement in America are self-admitted Marxists.

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’

Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview, Breitbart News reported.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

jakiah

extra gravy wrote: »

Nope, are you? It's well known that there is a sizeable racist element amongst England fans. Why do you think they would boo the players taking the knee?

Probably because they object to this political jingoism which doesnt seem to have any defined meaning being inserted into the matchday for every game they attend for over a year? Were you on here complaining when Celtic fans protested the poppy being foisted on them during their matchdays?

gmisk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So they had white privilege in the BallyMurphy massacre?

Most of Europe wasn’t involved in the slave trade, those that were are generally the ones in the orbit of the US and involved in continuous imperialism. Maybe protest that.

He’s probably Irish not British. The dominant group in Britain by the way isn’t “white” it’s English. Whiteness is an entirely American concept.

What the hell has the ballymurphy massacre got to do with anything? The people were not killed due to the colour of their skin....people are killed for other reasons in that case religion.
I am from Northern ireland ffs.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with on last paragraph.

Mongfinder General

jakiah wrote: »

The whole 'marxism' bit is a reach. Personally I dont care about the particular political ideology, I dont want any political movements or gestures made such an overt part of the offical matchday experience.


I found the poppy nonsense farcical and I find this farcical. I see a lot of people who followed UK football and objected to the poppy propaganda suddenly change their tune for this 'anti-racism or something' protest. Its hypocrisy of the highest order.

Seems to be some stock in the Marxist allegations. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8J68p5l-gjQ

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

Whats your opinion on loaded questions ?

I believe that if you can't answer them without it showing your hypocrisy, people tend to deflect away and do anything not to answer them.

jakiah

TomTomTim wrote: »

It's not a reach at all. The leaders of the movement in America are self-admitted Marxists.

So if BLM werent Marxists taking the knee would be fine?

Wombatman

extra gravy wrote: »

You think you know more about it than a top black player? Do please share your knowledge and experience of racism in football.

Do you seriously believe that the level racism in football, which is reflective of the level of racism in society, is at 'an all time high'?

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

It's literally highlighted in bold....the as US does part doesn't change the point imo.
Europe has a longer and more horrific history when it comes to that area is the point.

Except, it doesn't. Slavery of Black people in Europe was extremely rare, and there wasn't any kind of significant population of Black people in Europe until after the end of empire system. The actions of Europeans as part of colonialism was abhorrent, however, since the late 60s Europe has sought to put that past behind them. In fact, very few Europeans, beyond those who operated within the colonial systems abroad, had any contact with Black people.

Europe doesn't have the systematic racism that is present in the US. Nor does it have the divides along racial lines that exists in the US. There are degrees of racism in Europe, but it's nothing like the US, and any attempt to suggest that it does, inevitably seeks to rewrite history.

Look at any West European nations, and you will find cultures that find racism to be unacceptable, with laws in place to protect the rights of any racial group. Can you honestly say that this is not the case?

TomTomTim

jakiah wrote: »

So if BLM werent Marxists taking the knee would be fine?

And the goal posts are moved. I never said anything as such, I'm simply countering the downplaying of the narrative about Marxism & BLM. I don't support BLM regardless, as I think the majority of cases they use are full of twisted truths.