Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

jakiah

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So the football booing aren't even interested in what the players are actually doing, they just want to boo them. Well, thats a great argument.

They kneeled in support of the social movement, and continue to kneel in support of the social movement. I've not said they stopped kneeling, nor have a said they changed sides.

If you say so. Maybe you could print out a pamplet, this is pretty complex stuff for a mere football fan to comprehend.

Mitch Connor

jakiah wrote: »

If you say so. Maybe you could print out a pamplet, this is pretty complex stuff for a mere football fan to comprehend.

It's not complicated.

https://twitter.com/FA/status/1403804301453971456?s=19

jakiah

So the latest contention is that there are two 'Black Lives Matter'. One is apolitical. This is the one the kneeling is for, not the political 'Black Lives Matter' (who also kneel).

Lets say we accept that as true. The next contention is that Tom the Chelsea fan from West London, Miroslav the Crvena Zvezda fan from Belgrade & Lars the Djurgardens fan from Stockholm all know this vital detail but boo anyway simply because they are racist. And all of these should have read a statement from the English FA, in English, to clarify.

jakiah

Bright opening in the SCO CZE game, altough its hard to enjoy it now I know both teams are racist.

ArthurDayne

jakiah wrote: »

So the latest contention is that there are two 'Black Lives Matter'. One is apolitical. This is the one the kneeling is for, not the political 'Black Lives Matter' (who also kneel).

Lets say we accept that as true. The next contention is that Tom the Chelsea fan from West London, Miroslav the Crvena Zvezda fan from Belgrade & Lars the Djurgardens fan from Stockholm all know this vital detail but boo anyway simply because they are racist. And all of these should have read a statement from the English FA, in English, to clarify.

I don’t know why people are insisting on being confused by this. Social movements are often broad churches which garner support from a wide variety of political and social circles — and in that vein a common central message can then mean slightly or greatly different things to many people across that broad church (take the NI Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, a broad alliance of middle-of-the-road ordinary Catholics, conservative Catholics, student radicalists, socialists, pacifist Nationalists, militant Republicans etc).

Just because something has a common relation with another thing does not mean that they must be invariably considered as one in the same (going back to the NICRA example above, that was a mistake the Unionists made). I mean, take the Irish tricolour, a symbol which is used and revered commonly by Irish people — ranging from the Far Left to the Far Right to northern militant Republicanism to political centrism. Just because someone flies a tricolour doesn’t invariably mean that they support all the same things as others who use that symbol. A guy in West Belfast might fly a tricolour as a symbol of support for militant Republicanism but he might disagree with a man using the exact symbol at a Gemma O’Doherty rally or perhaps be inclined to say take it down from the mast as regards the tricolour being flown from government buildings in Dublin.

That’s not a difficult thing to comprehend right? Yet, for whatever reason, people seem determined to be perplexed by nuance when it comes to this Taking the Knee gesture — and contrive to assert that it must invariably mean the exact same thing and carry the exact same motivation to every single person who does it. If someone in the USA does it and is also a Marxist who sees it as a Marxist symbol, then seemingly the only logical conclusion is that everyone else who does it must be also be a Marxist etc.

Larbre34

A fine argument, but none of it belongs at a sporting fixture.

Fr D Maugire

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

But they're being purposely kept apart because of politics, therefore politics and sport are mixing.

It happens, especially when National Governments enforce their politics into sports and the players, managers, National Bodies etc have little input. You think athletes wanted to boycott Olympics in 80/84? I feel bad for those involved as it is not usually their choice to get involved in the politics game.

I think it is a bit different when it is those within the game who introduce the politics. As pointed out, there was already an anti-racism, equality campaign within football that didn't draw any real criticism. but apparently that wasn't working according to the players and now they do the kneeling which is also not working as they are still being abused and now drawing the ire of some supporters on top of that.

jakiah

ArthurDayne wrote: »

for whatever reason, people seem determined to be perplexed by nuance when it comes to this Taking the Knee gesture — and contrive to assert that it must invariably mean the exact same thing and carry the exact same motivation to every single person who does it.

So the kneeling means different things to different kneelers, but various posters are apoplectic that some football fans take different meaning from it to others?

Its fairly clear this gesture needs to be scrapped for a non-political one with a clearer message.

ArthurDayne

Larbre34 wrote: »

A fine argument, but none of it belongs at a sporting fixture.

I’ve said before that I have misgivings about the Taking the Knee gesture but it’s not entirely irrelevant in a sport where there is a longstanding issue of racist abuse of players — from monkey chants, banana throwing to Nazi salutes etc. Yeah, all this stuff shouldn’t belong in a sporting fixture — but the genesis of it being brought into the sport lies with the trolls who racially abuse players in stadiums and online. It’s not as if guys like Marcus Rashford have magically just made racism a contentious issue in football by doing a gesture to highlight it.

jakiah

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’ve said before that I have misgivings about the Taking the Knee gesture but it’s not entirely irrelevant in a sport where there is a longstanding issue of racist abuse of players — from monkey chants, banana throwing to Nazi salutes etc. Yeah, all this stuff shouldn’t belong in a sporting fixture — but the genesis of it being brought into the sport lies with the trolls who racially abuse players in stadiums and online. It’s not as if guys like Marcus Rashford have magically just made racism a contentious issue in football by doing a gesture to highlight it.

You could make the same argument for introducing protest against any societal issue to the football matchday.

Fr D Maugire

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’ve said before that I have misgivings about the Taking the Knee gesture but it’s not entirely irrelevant in a sport where there is a longstanding issue of racist abuse of players — from monkey chants, banana throwing to Nazi salutes etc. Yeah, all this stuff shouldn’t belong in a sporting fixture — but the genesis of it being brought into the sport lies with the trolls who racially abuse players in stadiums and online. It’s not as if guys like Marcus Rashford have magically just made racism a contentious issue in football by doing a gesture to highlight it.

But again, there are laws in place regarding racism within stadiums. If you are caught shouting racist abuse at players, you are banned from stadiums. What more can be done in this regard if the rules are already in place. A bit like arguing we should be doing more to combat speeding. We have laws, people are prosecuted if caught, speed cameras all over the place yet people are still speeding. Now we can blow the entire budget/time on trying to catch every single speeder, but not going to leave room for a lot else.

Social media is the area to fix, but it amazes me that people can actually control what abuse they receive, but choose not to.

archfi

No booing at Hampden as the Scots and the Czechs stood for a few seconds before kickoff, some pointing at their Respect badges.
Again, it's as if the booing is actually about the other gesture.

ArthurDayne

jakiah wrote: »

So the kneeling means different things to different kneelers, but various posters are apoplectic that some football fans take different meaning from it to others?

But these booing fans are going a step further than just taking different meanings from it — they are actually jeering at it. It’s essentially saying “I am booing you because I ascribe a particular meaning to what you are doing and f**k you even if I am wrong or what you are doing means something sincere to you.” It’s going far beyond just having an opinion to actually utterly disrespecting the opinion of another person. I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again — you literally end up with the situation where there are black players on a pitch doing an anti-racism gesture to the sound of actual jeers and boos. Trying to portray this as a nuanced statement of one’s mere difference of opinion seems a lot like polishing a turd to me.

jakiah wrote: »

Its fairly clear this gesture needs to be scrapped for a non-political one with a clearer message.

Somehow, I feel that people would still find a reason to boo it.

jakiah

ArthurDayne wrote: »

But these booing fans are going a step further than just taking different meanings from it — they are actually jeering at it. It’s essentially saying “I am booing you because I ascribe a particular meaning to what you are doing and f**k you even if I am wrong or what you are doing means something sincere to you.” It’s going far beyond just having an opinion to actually utterly disrespecting the opinion of another person.

Youve just said fans cant even know the reason people are kneeling. Its perfectly plausible that some fans just dont want officially sanctioned polticially-linked protest at football.

Somehow, I feel that people would still find a reason to boo it.

And yet not 45 minutes ago we had players standing and pointing to the badge for UEFAs long standing 'Respect' campaign, no boos from the fanbase who most opposed kneeling in the Sky poll posted earlier in the thread.

Hector Savage

archfi wrote: »

No booing at Hampden as the Scots and the Czechs stood for a few seconds before kickoff, some pointing at their Respect badges.
Again, it's as if the booing is actually about the other gesture.

Exactly, this is what the players should do ... or link like :



But bruh, maybe I'm just being racist :rolleyes:

ArthurDayne

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

But again, there are laws in place regarding racism within stadiums. If you are caught shouting racist abuse at players, you are banned from stadiums. What more can be done in this regard if the rules are already in place. A bit like arguing we should be doing more to combat speeding. We have laws, people are prosecuted if caught, speed cameras all over the place yet people are still speeding. Now we can blow the entire budget/time on trying to catch every single speeder, but not going to leave room for a lot else.

Social media is the area to fix, but it amazes me that people can actually control what abuse they receive, but choose not to.

This is a different argument to the one I am making though — I’m not singing the praises of Taking the Knee, I’m not claiming that it’s effective and I’m not trying to opine on what it has or will achieve.

I’m simply saying that having misgivings towards or disagreements with it does not mean: (1) that one can’t respect people when they are doing it; (2) that one can’t acknowledge that there are sincere elements to it for many people in the context of a sport where racial abuse is hurled regularly at players; (3) that one has to actually jeer at people doing it: (4) that one has to shoehorn the whole thing into whatever extremified interpretation makes it more palatable to justify booing it — like claiming it’s about supporting Communism or justifying violence in the US.

I would take issue on the examples you mention (there are constant media campaigns against dangerous driving and drink driving in addition to just the laws — while simply saying “do more to block people online” seems a little watery in terms of getting the right message out there) but the argument I am making is simply that it’s not paradoxical to disagree with Taking the Knee or its merits while also being able to respect it and not extremify it into something totally mental in order to justify people booing and jeering it like a pack of morons.

Hector Savage

You just know the people supporting the taking the knee are disappointed there was no booing in Glasgow today!!

nullzero

Hector Savage wrote: »

You just know the people supporting the taking the knee are disappointed there was no booing in Glasgow today!!

The lack of booing was just a dog whistle don't you know.

ArthurDayne

jakiah wrote: »

Youve just said fans cant even know the reason people are kneeling. Its perfectly plausible that some fans just dont want officially sanctioned polticially-linked protest at football.


And yet not 45 minutes ago we had players standing and pointing to the badge for UEFAs long standing 'Respect' campaign, no boos from the fanbase who most opposed kneeling in the Sky poll posted earlier in the thread.

Perfectly plausible yes — and I’ve never suggested otherwise. But it doesn’t change the fact that the gesture means something sincere to many other people, for example the black players doing it, and jeering at them while they do it is a step away from simple disagreement towards utterly disrespectful harassment. Even if one is to kindly assume that not a single person among all the jeering crowd was in any way motivated by racist tendencies — it doesn’t change the fact they are still acting in a contemptible and thuggish way.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again — it is not irreconcilable to have a problem with Taking the Knee but also be capable of showing respect to people for whom it means something. That way, one can disagree with it but still be able to call out the booing and jeering for the disgraceful behaviour that it is.

bewareofthedog

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Black Lives Matter the social campaign is different from Black Lives Matter the political organization in the US.

Which is what I said, many times.

What about the UK BLM political campaign?

https://ie.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Sky sports had their logo plastered on the TV for months in conjunction with taking the knee, you can choose to willfully ignore that if you wish.

jakiah

bewareofthedog wrote: »

What about the UK BLM political campaign?

https://ie.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Sky sports had their logo plastered on the TV for months in conjunction with taking the knee, you can choose to willfully ignore that if you wish.

We've already cleared that up, thats a different BLM movement altogether, just shares the same name and the taking the knee gesture with the other one by coincedence. Or something.

jakiah

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’ve said it before and I will say it again — it is not irreconcilable to have a problem with Taking the Knee but also be capable of showing respect to people for whom it means something. That way, one can disagree with it but still be able to call out the booing and jeering for the disgraceful behaviour that it is.

I take your point and its well made, but realistically any non-compliance with the polticial messaging from the stands would be painted as anti-message (in this case racist). People who objected to the poppy bull**** were called everything under the sun by the zealots pushing that nonsense too.

Larbre34

Marcus Rashford put his money and his reputation where his mouth is.

Let every player who is absent mindedly taking the knee so the same and I will be first to support them and to donate to them.

ArthurDayne

jakiah wrote: »

I take your point and its well made, but realistically any non-compliance with the polticial messaging from the stands would be painted as anti-message (in this case racist). People who objected to the poppy bull**** were called everything under the sun by the zealots pushing that nonsense too.

Yes but what I am trying to point out here is that the very same absolutist, not-with-us-then-against-us mentality that many here are accusing the (let’s say) pro-Knee folk of is present in their own opinions too.

I’m reading lots of comments on this thread where posters who are seemingly opposed to Taking the Knee are more or less ridiculing the concept that the gesture can be more nuanced than simply meaning “I am a Communist who supports every single thing ever done or said by any person or organisation using Black Lives Matter as a slogan or title”. And yet, despite engaging in what is a ludicrous level of generalisation, they go on to complain when generalisation is turned around on them and they are generalised as either racists or apologists for racism.

The generalisation is working both ways on this thread, and from what I see it’s every bit just as bad among the anti-Kneelers, who are allowing themselves to get drawn into a discussion where they are seen to be defending idiots and trolls jeering and hollering at a black guy doing an anti-racism gesture that probably has a sincere meaning for him.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

That way, one can disagree with it but still be able to call out the booing and jeering for the disgraceful behaviour that it is.

Why is it disgraceful? The footballers are entertainers, and booing is a perfectly valid reaction to being displeased with the entertainment provided.

Foxtrol

jakiah wrote: »

We've already cleared that up, thats a different BLM movement altogether, just shares the same name and the taking the knee gesture with the other one by coincedence. Or something.

Jesus, it isn't that tough of a concept to understand, it happens everywhere.

The United Ireland movement has both a political and violent history, with many groups using the slogan.

A person saying they support a united Ireland today doesn't make them a terrorist supporter. You can however say a lot about another person's view point if they boo and jeer them for showing their support.

jakiah

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yes but what I am trying to point out here is that the very same absolutist, not-with-us-then-against-us mentality that many here are accusing the (let’s say) pro-Knee folk of is present in their own opinions too.

I’m reading lots of comments on this thread where posters who are seemingly opposed to Taking the Knee are more or less ridiculing the concept that the gesture can be more nuanced than simply meaning “I am a Communist who supports every single thing ever done or said by any person or organisation using Black Lives Matter as a slogan or title”. And yet, despite engaging in what is a ludicrous level of generalisation, they go on to complain when generalisation is turned around on them and they are generalised as either racists or apologists for racism.

The generalisation is working both ways on this thread, and from what I see it’s every bit just as bad among the anti-Kneelers, who are allowing themselves to get drawn into a discussion where they are seen to be defending idiots and trolls jeering and hollering at a black guy doing an anti-racism gesture that probably has a sincere meaning for him.

Im not seeing it. I literally said that some people are booing it because they are racist and that some boo it becuase they think its inappropriate, and that lots of people who disagree with the knee have different interpretations of what its about, two or three pages back.

Its absurd to think all supporters in a single support base would have some universal ideology, never mind all supporters across Europe.

What gesture do you think fans who object to politicising the football matchday could make without being accused of being against whatever political message is being pushed?

jakiah

Foxtrol wrote: »

Jesus, it isn't that tough of a concept to understand, it happens everywhere.

The United Ireland movement has both a political and violent history, with many groups using the slogan.

A person saying they support a united Ireland today doesn't make them a terrorist supporter. You can however say a lot about another person's view point if they boo and jeer them for showing their support.

OK. Are you suggesting we should have UEFA sanction political gestures associated with being for/against a United Ireland as part of football games? The we can alll have a big debate about what the resultant booing/cheering actually means!

Bobblehats

Who will actually be kneeling at these European showpiece finals. Germany? France??

..England; Brussels. Bit of a pattern there. We don’t owe anything let them at it to bow, before the countries whom they brought all this nonsense upon and a section of their own people don’t like it either that speaks volumes.

Foxtrol

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No, people don't want to see politics they don't agree with come into sport. Sport, in every country, is full of politics and as long as it is politics they agree with it is fine.

Show me the outcry from these same booing fans at the Poppy, which is a political piece. there isn't any cause the english people don't have a problem with that bit of politics. But, if you are from, say Derry, and don't want to glorify the soldiers that murdered people of your country, you will damn well have to put up with all kinds of abuse and death threats. Even when all you have done is simply not wear a Poppy (not booing, not being anti-poppy).

And, isn't it just really said that the idea that Black Lives Matter, that people should be treated with fairness and respect, is a political contraversy.

It is the typical 'keep politics out of sport for thee, but not for me' mindset.

During the initial racial injustice protests in the NFL we even saw a team president come out against them, saying they should keep politics out of sport, completely ignoring the fact a few months earlier he himself used the team PR apparatus to endorse a republican supreme court nominee.

Even if you disagree with it, showing respect for another person's peaceful protest isn't hard at all. Not being able to control yourself says more about you than those protesting.