Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Foxtrol

bewareofthedog wrote: »

This is such an absolute cop out.

I'm sure there was plenty of German civilians giving the sieg heil salute who only wanted German prosperity.

Are we even dealing in reality anymore? "Multiple separate groups" my arse.

You know you've lost the argument when you have to resort to Godwin's Law.

martingriff

jakiah wrote: »

Not inherently, but some anti-racist movements are overtly political. We already had non-political anti-racism efforts in football not associated with external political campaigns in specific jurisdictions. I suspect you know this.

I do and the players clubs and countries who still take the knee for Racism they have said so. Racism is not political

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Regardless, I will not support anyone making that gesture for any reason. I also wouldn't support people using a swastika, a Nazi salute or any other gesture that is intrinsically linked to an organisation I oppose.

This has been repeated countless times and we are going around in circles.

Nobody here is seriously opposing making a stand about racism. They are opposing the gesture.

You disagree with that stance. Fair enough. Plenty of posters have accused those against the kneeling are racist for doing so (not true).

You can bleat on about how kneeling and BLM aren't linked and I'll keep bleating on about how they are.

You respect the individuals right to knee, as do I. I also respect the right of the supporter to boo.

You simply aren't opposing the gesture of kneeling, unless you're going around booing everyone in church or proposing. What you're doing is ignoring the words of those protesting for why they are kneeling and are, at very best, booing something you've made up.

There is also definitely an element at these games that are very much booing because they oppose making a stand against racism, you're also supporting them. I would reconsider who I was supporting if I was on the same side as racists but each to their own.

Foxtrol

jakiah wrote: »

Not inherently, but some anti-racist movements are overtly political. We already had non-political anti-racism efforts in football not associated with external political campaigns in specific jurisdictions. I suspect you know this.

Ah yes, the barely noticeable campaigns that clearly haven't been working.

jakiah

martingriff wrote: »

I do and the players clubs and countries who still take the knee for Racism they have said so. Racism is not political

Oh if they said so thats ok.


They said jingoistic poppy **** military displays in football grounds werent political too, I didnt buy that either.

jakiah

Foxtrol wrote: »

Ah yes, the barely noticeable campaigns that clearly haven't been working.

How do you quantify if they were working or not? My experience as a regular match going fan are that incidences of racism in football are MUCH lower than in everyday life. Are these BLM protests 'working'?

ArthurDayne

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

Can you make a good-faith attempt at a steel-man argument for fans in the stadium booing people on the team they're supporting for taking a knee, as is happening now?

The problem here is that you’re not asking me to steel-man an argument against Taking the Knee, which I could probably do (mostly because I’m not a huge fan of it myself!) but rather you’re asking me to steel-man the idea of people actually booing at people doing it. For me, it’s like asking me to steel-man an argument why, if you were on a stage at a debate and I don’t like what you’re saying, I should join in with jeering you rather than respecting the fact that you have a different view.

If people really really really really want to boo the Knee gesture — then I don’t see why it is beyond the wit of groups of fans to stage more respectful protests where they have banners or placards either inside the ground or outside which just spell out that they acknowledge the racism problem in football, they respect the sincerity of the players for who want to tackle racism, but that they just disagree with the Knee gesture. I don’t think it’s beyond the wit of people to out that in catchier terms in banners or whatever. Just something that says “we want what you want — no racism in football — real measures to prevent it — but we don’t agree with the Knee”.

But this business of booing it — particularly where it involves black players being booed at while they do an anti-racism gesture — it’s hard to steel man that because it’s steel manning why people should disrespect others.

jakiah

No kneeling at SWE SPA, even Sweden lost to the racist ranks

Bobblehats

Sweden didn’t bite either?!

Man, you really can count them on one hand

martingriff

jakiah wrote: »

Oh if they said so thats ok.


They said jingoistic poppy **** military displays in football grounds werent political too, I didnt buy that either.

I don't think it is political and I respect any who and does not want to do and would not boo either way. I also respect anyone club or country who does not take the knee and I will not boo them either. It there choice

Tell me how

bewareofthedog wrote: »

The original founders of BLM describe themselves as trained Marxists, pull your long fangled impossible to reply list nonsense on somebody else.

See point c.

That short enough a reply for you?

jakiah

Bobblehats wrote: »

Sweden didn’t bite either?!

Man, you really can count them on one hand

Hey, maybe the Sweden team arent all racists, just dont think this kneeling protest is valid in the context of a match against Spain!?!?!

martingriff

jakiah wrote: »

No kneeling at SWE SPA, even Sweden lost to the racist ranks

You know that is because its there choice nobody here has said if you don't take the knee. Its there choice its respected. FIFA UEFA etc have said as much Also nobody booed them either for making it.

Hector Savage

I see Spain and Sweden are 2 teams of white supremacists - disgraceful !!

martingriff

Hector Savage wrote: »

I see Spain and Sweden are 2 teams of white supremacists - disgraceful !!

Nobody and I mean nobody has said teams have to take the knee. This is about boo where team make the choice to. They do it in there own way and standing up to racism and nobody is booing them for making that choice

Faugheen

Hector Savage wrote: »

I see Spain and Sweden are 2 teams of white supremacists - disgraceful !!

Why are you making up absolute nonsense that absolutely nobody has said?

This thread is about a players right to be able to make a peaceful gesture about anti-racism in football and not being booed for it.

Foxtrol

archfi wrote: »

Really bad faith.

No more bad faith than what you're doing ignoring the words of peaceful protesters to connect them with the actions of others

ArthurDayne

martingriff wrote: »

Nobody and I mean nobody has said teams have to take the knee. This is about boo where team make the choice to. They do it in there own way and standing up to racism and nobody is booing them for making that choice

This is it really.

If a team does it, I’ll respect it (mainly out of respect for any player or people in the stadium or elsewhere for whom it means a lot). If a team doesn’t do it, I don’t particularly care. I think that’s where a lot of people stand without having to go as far as booing like an eejit or thinking that Marxus Rashford is a Red Devil in more ways than one.

Faugheen

ArthurDayne wrote: »

This is it really.

If a team does it, I’ll respect it (mainly out of respect for any player or people in the stadium or elsewhere for whom it means a lot). If a team doesn’t do it, I don’t particularly care. I think that’s where a lot of people stand without having to go as far as booing like an eejit or thinking that Marxus Rashford is a Red Devil in more ways than one.

Is Marxus Rashford actually a thing?

As in, are actual adults saying this?

Jesus Christ.

Billy Mays

Faugheen wrote: »

Why are you making up absolute nonsense that absolutely nobody has said?

This thread is about a players right to be able to make a peaceful gesture about anti-racism in football and not being booed for it.

In the interest of balance I expect a certain someone will be along to pull him up on this

Foxtrol

jakiah wrote: »

How do you quantify if they were working or not? My experience as a regular match going fan are that incidences of racism in football are MUCH lower than in everyday life. Are these BLM protests 'working'?

The fact that black players see it as being an big issue in their lives, even ones that aren't taking a knee.

If you're seeing much more racism in your everyday life that probably says more about you.

jakiah

Sorry lads but the contention throughout this thread, both explicitly and by insinuation, is that anyone who opposes taking the knee is racist. All the players not taking it today must be racist by this same logic.

ArthurDayne

Faugheen wrote: »

Is Marxus Rashford actually a thing?

As in, are actual adults saying this?

Jesus Christ.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1404360783467851777?s=20

According to Nigel Farage you cannot separate Taking the Knee from a Marxist plot to overthrow Western civilisation. United have gone all the way from the prawn sandwich brigade to the International Brigade!

martingriff

ArthurDayne wrote: »

This is it really.

If a team does it, I’ll respect it (mainly out of respect for any player or people in the stadium or elsewhere for whom it means a lot). If a team doesn’t do it, I don’t particularly care. I think that’s where a lot of people stand without having to go as far as booing like an eejit or thinking that Marxus Rashford is a Red Devil in more ways than one.

If anyone actually calls him that there a bigger idiot

See now from a reply who not very surprised Mr. Robinson thinks the same too I say

martingriff

jakiah wrote: »

Sorry lads but the contention throughout this thread, both explicitly and by insinuation, is that anyone who opposes taking the knee is racist. All the players not taking it today must be racist by this same logic.

No its not the point of this thread were people booing the taking of the knee. Show me examples

martingriff

ArthurDayne wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1404360783467851777?s=20

According to Nigel Farage you cannot separate Taking the Knee from a Marxist plot to overthrow Western civilisation. United have gone all the way from the prawn sandwich brigade to the International Brigade!

Oh him right I was wondering where he stood on it, and by wonder I mean know exactly where.

Faugheen

Billy Mays wrote: »

In the interest of balance I expect a certain someone will be along to pull him up on this

Well, he’s been told twice and both times he ignored the posts.

In fact these posts have given him an out not to call it out but it will only prove my point really.

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

Well, he’s been told twice and both times he ignored the posts.

In fact these posts have given him an out not to call it out but it will only prove my point really.

Guffaw guffaw gentlemen.

I assumed hectors post was tongue in cheek. I didnt see the need.

Everything that's needed to be said has been said on my part.

It's gone into cycles of a new poster coming in and the same argument continues.

My position has remained consistent throughout and despite numerous personal attacks on my character (implied and explicit) they haven't changed.

archfi

Foxtrol wrote: »

No more bad faith than what you're doing ignoring the words of peaceful protesters to connect them with the actions of others

The gesture is indelibly connected to the BLM organisation.
Political getsures do not belong at football matches.
The gesture is simply wrong and divisive.

Faugheen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Guffaw guffaw gentlemen.

I assumed hectors post was tongue in cheek. I didnt see the need.

Everything that's needed to be said has been said on my part.

It's gone into cycles of a new poster coming in and the same argument continues.

My position has remained consistent throughout and despite numerous personal attacks on my character (implied and explicit) they haven't changed.

Ah ok so tongue in cheek doesn’t count when it comes to calling out those who are saying sh*t that nobody else said.

How predictable from your balanced self.