Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Omackeral

Foxtrol wrote: »

Interested in where you see any shade of grey?

There are two major sides:

Right there. There's not only ever two sides. That's a major issue I have with today's society. You're one or the other. No room for nuance at all.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or....

Do exactly as they do now. Boo the gesture they disagree with for the "horrific few seconds" and then rapturously support the footballers play football for 90 minutes.

I couldn't give a tiny shiny shìte if they boo for the whole ninty minutes and into extra time if that makes them feel better about themselves, I just see it the same as I see booing a nation anthem, it's disrespectful.

Foxtrol

Omackeral wrote: »

You keep exclusively mentioning the black players in your posts though.

Evidence of the white players leading the decision to take a knee?

Foxtrol

Omackeral wrote: »

Right there. There's not only ever two sides. That's a major issue I have with today's society. You're one or the other. No room for nuance at all.

Nice selective editing of my post and not responding to my question :rolleyes:

Want to believe you're discussing this in good faith but that stinks of the opposite

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

Right there. There's not only ever two sides. That's a major issue I have with today's society. You're one or the other. No room for nuance at all.

I'm curious.
How do you view the BLM protests from last year? A worthy call for action/change, or a violent extremist marxist group?

I'm only asking you because at least one of the people who agrees with your post saying there's no nuance in todays world, abhors them for this reason and yet the reality is the vast majority of protests were peaceful and those attending were doing so because they feel all people should be treated fairly and equally by the police.

I'm curious if nuance is applied across the board, or only when absolving people for booing a protest calling for action against racism.

Omackeral

Foxtrol wrote: »

Nice selective editing of my post and not responding to my question :rolleyes:

Want to believe you're discussing this in good faith but that stinks of the opposite

Well...

Foxtrol wrote: »

Evidence of the white players leading the decision to take a knee?

Where did I make that claim? Why do you frame your question as if I did. You exclusively refer to people booing the black players, then backtrack and say oh I mean white and black, and now this. Very dishonest in your style IMO.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm curious.
How do you view the BLM protests from last year? A worthy call for action/change, or a violent extremist marxist group?

I'm only asking you because at least one of the people who agrees with your post saying there's no nuance in todays world, abhors them for this reason and yet the reality is the vast majority of protests were peaceful and those attending were doing so because they feel all people should be treated fairly and equally by the police.

I'm curious if nuance is applied across the board, or only when absolving people for booing a protest calling for action against racism.

See now it's confusing because according to people on this very thread, that BLM is different to this one. Name vs ethos vs organisation vs whatever you're having yourself. The BLM movement is good in a lot of ways but some of it is shady as it has been hijacked in parts.

I'll state again that I think it is low rent to boo the knee at games and that I wouldn't do it. Have said it from the outset. I do however, see that some could have issue with the BLM movement and some of the stuff it brings. It's all very muddled. What's wrong with the Kick It Out Campaign? How about the RESPECT stuff.

As for talk of the police in America, it's not something I concern myself with too much. I think the US as a society is a basket case.

Danzy

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Is John Barnes a racist now?

In the quiet they'll call him a coconut and an Uncle Tom.

Nothing gets up the nose of the modern Left as someone they expect to be grateful for their guidance and help not falling in to line.

Ultimately he will be considered suspect because he is outside the corporate side of the support. He is past tense, boring, add in views on Twitter..

He won't be called a racist but they'll hate him for it

bewareofthedog

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm only asking you because at least one of the people who agrees with your post saying there's no nuance in todays world, abhors them for this reason and yet the reality is the vast majority of protests were peaceful and those attending were doing so because they feel all people should be treated fairly and equally by the police.

Using your own logic the vast majority of police encounters are peaceful ( times 10 million or so in favour of the police if we want to get down to ratios ).

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

See now it's confusing because according to people on this very thread, that BLM is different to this one. Name vs ethos vs organisation vs whatever you're having yourself. The BLM movement is good in a lot of ways but some of it is shady as it has been hijacked in parts.

I'll state again that I think it is low rent to boo the knee at games and that I wouldn't do it. Have said it from the outset. I do however, see that some could have issue with the BLM movement and some of the stuff it brings. It's all very muddled. What's wrong with the Kick It Out Campaign? How about the RESPECT stuff.

As for talk of the police in America, it's not something I concern myself with too much. I think the US as a society is a basket case.

I'd say the fact that racist incidents were apparently on the rise might have something to do with that.

Or that UEFA and FIFA have shown to be slow to react appropriately to instances of racism.

Foxtrol

Omackeral wrote: »

Well...

Where did I make that claim? Why do you frame your question as if I did. You exclusively refer to people booing the black players, then backtrack and say oh I mean white and black, and now this. Very dishonest in your style IMO.

You were repeatedly being pedantic to try to point score and I asked that question to get to the nub of why your approach made no sense. It is incredibly weak to try to equate that to your dishonesty of you selectively editing of my post.

As you clearly have a problem answering questions, I'll just explain why I said they were booing black players, in case it wasn't obvious already. The leaders of the movement to protest in that format are black players, there is no evidence that the protest would be happening if it wasn't for the black players, and the players are protesting discrimination, injustice, and inequality - issues that impact non-white players and their community far greater.

This is all about black players and their community, even if white players are also joining them. The target of the fans boos is obvious to everyone but the most naive or disingenuous.

Tell me how

bewareofthedog wrote: »

Using your own logic the vast majority of police encounters are peaceful ( times 10 million or so in favour of the police if we want to get down to ratios ).

Ah yes, but I'm advocating always improving'
You're advocating shrugging the shoulders and saying 'Sure things aren't that bad'.

If your child was beaten at school, would it be enough for you to accept that it was happening much less now than it did in the past or would you still want steps taken to ensure it didn't happen?

Foxtrol

Danzy wrote: »

In the quiet they'll call him a coconut and an Uncle Tom.

Nothing gets up the nose of the modern Left as someone they expect to be grateful for their guidance and help not falling in to line.

Ultimately he will be considered suspect because he is outside the corporate side of the support. He is past tense, boring, add in views on Twitter..

He won't be called a racist but they'll hate him for it

Or Barne's argument makes no sense and is at best a strawman.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

I'd say the fact that racist incidents were apparently on the rise might have something to do with that.

Or that UEFA and FIFA have shown to be slow to react appropriately to instances of racism.

Literally every instance of racist behavior in Europe has been tackled immediately for years. You'll typically tend to find such incidents in the usual hotspots in eastern Europe or Italy, monkey chants, bananas thrown onto the pitch and typically the following day action is being taken.

Racism is moving more and more into the online space as a result, and that's where efforts need to be focused nowadays.

Faugheen

Deleted User wrote: »

Or....

Do exactly as they do now. Boo the gesture they disagree with for the "horrific few seconds" and then rapturously support the footballers play football for 90 minutes.

So tell black people how to protest then.

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

Or Barne's argument makes no sense and is at best a strawman.

It makes no sense to you, while others can evaluate it without the weight of a strict belief system on their shoulders.

Foxtrol

Faugheen wrote: »

So tell black people how to protest then.

Even if black people do what they tell them and stop taking the knee they'll just change their minds again and conjure up a new way to be offended by them. They'll never be happy until they are out of sight and out of mind (having said that even when NFL teams stayed in their locker rooms to avoid a situation with the knee the usual suspects took offense).

Same arguments being made here have been made every time black people protest - 'not that way', 'you should be happy things are better than they were'...

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

Literally every instance of racist behavior in Europe has been tackled immediately for years. You'll typically tend to find such incidents in the usual hotspots in eastern Europe or Italy, monkey chants, bananas thrown onto the pitch and typically the following day action is being taken.

Racism is moving more and more into the online space as a result, and that's where efforts need to be focused nowadays.

Wouldn't be sure incidents are being tackled immediately.

When Lukaku complained of racist behaviour by Slavia Prague fans in the Champions League, the Czech side denied such chanting happening – and instead called on Lukaku to apologise for the accusation.

......


Croatia fans, for instance, didn't stop their racist behaviour by etching a Swastika logo on the pitch of the game that was already played behind closed doors, due to a previous incident that involved racist abuse.

Footballers (and many supporters) led the way in having a weekend where they stayed off social media in order to draw attention to the issues there.

Didn't see them being accused as being marxists for that action.

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

Even if black people do what they tell them and stop taking the knee they'll just change their minds again and conjure up a new way to be offended by them. They'll never be happy until they are out of sight and out of mind (having said that even when NFL teams stayed in their locker rooms to avoid a situation with the knee the usual suspects took offense).

Same arguments being made here have been made every time black people protest - 'not that way', 'you should be happy things are better than they were'...

That's a completely ridiculous take on what's being discussed here, you're making assumptions, casting people in the role of racists without good cause, pure self indulgent over the top garbage.

Discussing the effectiveness of taking the knee isn't the same as wanting black people out of sight and denying them the right to any type of protest. You SHOULD be ashamed of yourself, but I'm guessing you're quite proud of that diatribe.

Tell me how

Foxtrol wrote: »

Even if black people do what they tell them and stop taking the knee they'll just change their minds again and conjure up a new way to be offended by them. They'll never be happy until they are out of sight and out of mind (having said that even when NFL teams stayed in their locker rooms to avoid a situation with the knee the usual suspects took offense).

Same arguments being made here have been made every time black people protest - 'not that way', 'you should be happy things are better than they were'...

Brings this to mind.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZXjbG9XkAASDlh.jpg

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

That's a completely ridiculous take on what's being discussed here, you're making assumptions, casting people in the role of racists without good cause, pure self indulgent over the top garbage.

Discussing the effectiveness of taking the knee isn't the same as wanting black people out of sight and denying them the right to any type of protest. You SHOULD be ashamed of yourself, but I'm guessing you're quite proud of that diatribe.

The poster made no reference to people being racist here. That's your interjection.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

The poster made no reference to people being racist here. That's your interjection.

Thank God you're on hand to interpret that posters words for them yet again. Who are the "they" and "them" Foxtrol is referring to then?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

The poster made no reference to people being racist here. That's your interjection.

It's really not. Read it again. It's very clear that racism is heavily implied

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

So tell black people how to protest then.

I absolutely never said that. Please stop misrepresenting me and framing me as a racist faugheen.

I never mentioned black people. Why would I?

bewareofthedog

Tell me how wrote: »

Ah yes, but I'm advocating always improving'
You're advocating shrugging the shoulders and saying 'Sure things aren't that bad'.

If your child was beaten at school, would it be enough for you to accept that it was happening much less now than it did in the past or would you still want steps taken to ensure it didn't happen?

In certain instances, there are no steps you can take to "ensure something doesn't happen".

The minimalistic figure of police interactions going badly isn't going to change.
Taking a random year that has data, this report says in 2015 there was 223 million police interactions with the public that year. I've read in 2020 it was over 300 million in 2020 but can't find any data for it.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/contacts-between-police-and-public-2015

You can work the math out for yourself. So unless the plan is for the police to wear self imploding neck contraptions that activate when they're about to do something unlawful like shooting an unarmed person, nothing is going to change.

Think of the reality of police in the US, it's like a warzone dealing day in day out with gang crime among other things. Ignoring that, there will always be bad eggs, there will always be naturally nervous people with itchy fingers, it's human nature and you can't control it, especially not when dealing with an entity broad enough that employs millions of people. You cannot know how someone reacts until they reach that moment no matter the training.

There's no solution to "ensure things don't happen". All can that be done is jail those who do clearly intentional bad things in the line of duty such as the person who killed George Floyd.

This is off topic now anyway and more suited to a broader debate about gun culture etc in the US.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

Brings this to mind.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZXjbG9XkAASDlh.jpg

More US stuff. A basket case of a nation absolutely obsessed with labels, race and identity politics.

Omackeral

Here's something I take a bit of umbrage with on a wider scale. The idea of the black community, in the context of the entire world, is a flawed concept. What has an urban London lad got in common with a Kenyan villager. What has a Caribbean retired gentleman got in common with some hipster nerd from Seattle? Where does a hot shot stockbroker on Wall Street fit in? A Dutch mechanic. Grouping people by their skin colour like that is lazy and ridiculously counterproductive.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

It's really not. Read it again. It's very clear that racism is heavily implied

Quote the post and show the relevant part that heavily implies racism.

The fact is, views are heavily consistent on this topic with the views that were held when the conversation about BLM was going on here.

Is it forbidden to suggest this?

nullzero

Omackeral wrote: »

More US stuff. A basket case of a nation absolutely obsessed with labels, race and identity politics.

Some people seem intent on imposing American issues onto everything everywhere, nothing must ever deviate from their rigid worldview and if it does it's due to some form of intolerance.

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

More US stuff. A basket case of a nation absolutely obsessed with labels, race and identity politics.

It gets a lot of attention on here though doesn't it.

P.S. I'm currently living in the US and your assessment is wide of the mark. Just sayin. Is highlighting racist or prejudiced acts an obsession, or something that needs attention?