Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

Because the social medias know exactly what could be done to fix this. Was that really a question?

You act like the platforms don't benefit greatly from players using them, why do you think they 'verify' people?

Yes but why would the social media companies do anything? It would take a bit of effort and cost and the players taking the knee are almost all happy enough with the way these companies are operating.

A weekend off social media was beyond a joke, it was just posing.

Fandymo

Tell me how wrote: »

The bit in bold are your words before anyone suggests later that those in support of kneeling have identified the players as such.



For both posts, isn't it always the same with people looking to undermine those doing anything with saying to them withering queries of 'Yeah, but what else have you done?'
Was the same with Greta with people upset and irate that she didn't have all the answers upfront when calling for action and with many saying she should stop protesting, go to school, come up with the solutions and then maybe people will listen to her.
If people with this mindset were around when Rosa Parks started her protest, they'd probably have said 'She should buy a car if she wants to sit anywhere of her own choice'

Why should players do everything when football authorities won't always protect them as much as they should or when the social media companies know what exactly is happening but won't offer any solutions as to how changes to their platform might help fix it?
When Marcus Rashford did trojan work in forcing the UK government to continue providing school meals to disadvantaged kids some people still weren't happy and were telling him maybe he'd have better success on the field if he wasn't rushing around trying to be some sort of hero.

It's very easy to dismiss, judge and undermine the efforts of someone because there is always more that can be done. I'm always curious why people are so quick to have a go at those doing something instead of supporting them for what they have done.

TL:DR: Can’t someone else sort it.

Fandymo

Tell me how wrote: »

Because the social medias know exactly what could be done to fix this. Was that really a question?

You act like the platforms don't benefit greatly from players using them, why do you think they 'verify' people?

So you agree, the players benefit social media, therefore if they were to stop that benefit, do you think social media is a) more likely or b) less likely to change things to bring that benefit back??

Tell me how

Fandymo wrote: »

TL:DR: Can’t someone else sort it.

Same as dismissing Greta because she didn't come with all the answers in a neat package. Easy to do and pointless.

Fandymo wrote: »

So you agree, the players benefit social media, therefore if they were to stop that benefit, do you think social media is a) more likely or b) less likely to change things to bring that benefit back??

So you think the players should do more?
By the same token, do you think they should strike from playing football until authorities and clubs fix all issues?

Is that your position, there is a need for action, they should do everything it takes, or are you just finding any angle you can to say they are wrong?

nolivesmatter

Tell me how wrote: »

So you think the players should do more?
By the same token, do you think they should strike from playing football until authorities and clubs fix all issues?

They won't do that because they probably won't get paid while they do. But I think they should go for it if they want to. I expect they'd be very clear about what they want the clubs to do that they aren't already doing in that situation.

Fandymo

Tell me how wrote: »

Same as dismissing Greta because she didn't come with all the answers in a neat package. Easy to do and pointless.



So you think the players should do more?
By the same token, do you think they should strike from playing football until authorities and clubs fix all issues?

Is that your position, there is a need for action, they should do everything it takes, or are you just finding any angle you can to say they are wrong?

If I, or you, or anyone, is taking dogs abuse, and we have a very simple option to put and end to it, but refuse to do it, then I have zero sympathy for them. They aren’t a battered wife afraid to leave, they aren’t a small child afraid of a bully, they are grown men, making millions of pounds, who are worried about losing a few thousand in social media endorsements.

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

If I, or you, or anyone, is taking dogs abuse, and we have a very simple option to put and end to it, but refuse to do it, then I have zero sympathy for them. They aren’t a battered wife afraid to leave, they aren’t a small child afraid of a bully, they are grown men, making millions of pounds, who are worried about losing a few thousand in social media endorsements.

While finding sympathy for multi millionaires is hard, I don't agree that they should be expected to not be able to use a platform the way others would, purely to avoid recieving racist abuse.

archfi

Deleted User wrote: »

While finding sympathy for multi millionaires is hard, I don't agree that they should be expected to not be able to use a platform the way others would, purely to avoid recieving racist abuse.

But that's the thing.
Why on earth would any celebrity not employ the same methods logical ordinary people do by NOT leaving their DMs open to the world's insanity? Is it FOMO or what?
Also, there are mute and block functions along with report functions and the option to report actual threats etc to the police.
Celebrities should really have an official commercial account and a personal private one if required - the solutions are there.*

*Again, this is not to acquiesce to pig ignorant and threatening social media users adn IMO not to harass back over simple differences of opinion.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

While finding sympathy for multi millionaires is hard, I don't agree that they should be expected to not be able to use a platform the way others would, purely to avoid recieving racist abuse.

So we’re back to “can’t someone else do it”.

Sometimes change needs a radical protest to be enacted, although going off Twitter is far from a radical protest and they can’t even do that.

Once the social media companies start losing money/followers, footballers/celebs would be able to dictate what changes they wanted made to make the platform more palatable to them. Short term pain for long term gain. In a perfect world they wouldn’t have to, but it’s far from a perfect world.

MisterAnarchy

The French team did not take the knee before their match with Germany.

In his post-match interview, the French coach Didier Deschamps was asked why the gesture was abandoned.
His response suggested the furore about the gesture had unsettled the squad.
‘No matter what we do, or what the players say, it leads to an interpretation and always a hijacking in one direction or another,’ he said. ‘That's not a good thing’.

According to the French media, the squad was ‘astonished’ by the response to their decision to take the knee and several players expressed their unease at adopting a gesture that could divide the nation.

Tell me how

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The French team did not take the knee before their match with Germany.

In his post-match interview, the French coach Didier Deschamps was asked why the gesture was abandoned.
His response suggested the furore about the gesture had unsettled the squad.
‘No matter what we do, or what the players say, it leads to an interpretation and always a hijacking in one direction or another,’ he said. ‘That's not a good thing’.

According to the French media, the squad was ‘astonished’ by the response to their decision to take the knee and several players expressed their unease at adopting a gesture that could divide the nation.

I wonder do people feel any guilt reading this after ignoring what the players were saying and insisting that they were kneeling because of Marxist ideals instead of to highlight the need to combat racism as the players said they were doing.

Must be a funny feeling, knowing you shut down people advocating against racism. I'm not saying that makes you a racist, but it definitely means the racists are happy these people helped stop the protests where that is what happens.

MisterAnarchy

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The French team did not take the knee before their match with Germany.

In his post-match interview, the French coach Didier Deschamps was asked why the gesture was abandoned.
His response suggested the furore about the gesture had unsettled the squad.
‘No matter what we do, or what the players say, it leads to an interpretation and always a hijacking in one direction or another,’ he said. ‘That's not a good thing’.

According to the French media, the squad was ‘astonished’ by the response to their decision to take the knee and several players expressed their unease at adopting a gesture that could divide the nation.

Good to hear. It's clear that people don't want American politics entering into European sport, and the team are right not to engage in a gesture that many feel does just that. Hopefully they can point to the respect logo on their jerseys instead.

Tchaikovsky

2021, when opposing racism is seen as a political gesture.

Tell me how

Hhhhh wrote: »

Good to hear. It's clear that people don't want American politics entering into European sport, and the team are right not to engage in a gesture that many feel does just that. Hopefully they can point to the respect logo on their jerseys instead.

A - It's American Racism, not politics.
B - The participants in Europe specifically said that this is not what they were doing.
C - Why are you misrepresenting what they said?
D - Do you feel any guilt in advocating for something that pleases racists?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

A - It's American Racism, not politics.
B - The participants in Europe specifically said that this is not what they were doing.
C - Why are you misrepresenting what they said?
D - Do you feel any guilt in advocating for something that pleases racists?

A. It's American politics.

B. They are using a gesture heavily associated with an American political organisation in the minds of some. This is why the Swastika and Nazi salutes were brought up earlier. Choose a new gesture, problem solved. It's very easy.

C. Where did I misrepresent?

D. Racists are advocating for a new gesture to advocate against racism? News to me. Where is your evidence for that assertion?

Tell me how

Hhhhh wrote: »

A. It's American politics.

B. They are using a gesture heavily associated with an American political organisation in the minds of some. This is why the Swastika and Nazi salutes were brought up earlier. Choose a new gesture, problem solved. It's very easy.

C. Where did I misrepresent?

D. Racists are advocating for a new gesture to advocate against racism? News to me. Where is your evidence for that assertion?

A and B. Players have clearly said one thing, you're choosing to say it means something else. Own it.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

A and B. Players have clearly said one thing, you're choosing to say it means something else. Own it.

Where did I personally say it?

Evidence please.

Also where is your evidence that racists are advocating for another anti-racism gesture? If you can't provide any then say so. Own it.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

A and B. Players have clearly said one thing, you're choosing to say it means something else. Own it.

I don't believe the players. And even if I did, it wouldn't make me support that gesture. It's recent connection with blm tied it to racism, not anti racism

Tell me how

Hhhhh wrote: »

Where did I personally say it?

Evidence please.

Point B Of your last post................

Hhhhh wrote: »

Also where is your evidence that racists are advocating for another anti-racism gesture? If you can't provide any then say so. Own it.

You either misread, or misinterpreted my point, or are identifying as a racist. Which is it?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Point B Of your last post................

Did you miss the 'in the minds of some' part of that post or...

Tell me how wrote: »

You either misread, or misinterpreted my point, or are identifying as a racist. Which is it?

I'm advocating for the use of a new gesture, such as the pointing to the respect logo.

Hopefully they can point to the respect logo on their jerseys instead.

So which racists are advocating for that? Evidence please.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe the players. And even if I did, it wouldn't make me support that gesture. It's recent connection with blm tied it to racism, not anti racism

Lol. There it is. Players who have been targeted by racists have said that this is why they are protesting and you flat out choose to not to believe them .

Justify that in your own head any way you want, all I am sure is that the racists who are reading this thread are rubbing their hands in glee when they read that.

And let me be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, before you spend the rest of the day saying that is what was said, I'm saying that your position pleases people who are racist towards footballers or want to pretend there isn't a problem.

I'm not even going to go in to the decision to look at everything that has gone on in the US over the last number of years and to conclude that not only do you disagree with the protests, but that you think it is more racist in nature than the acts which initiated the protests.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Lol. There it is. Players who have been targeted by racists have said that this is why they are protesting and you flat out choose to not to believe them .

Justify that in your own head any way you want, all I am sure is that the racists who are reading this thread are rubbing their hands in glee when they read that.

And let me be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, before you spend the rest of the day saying that is what was said, I'm saying that your position pleases people who are racist towards footballers or want to pretend there isn't a problem.

I'm not even going to go in to the decision to look at everything that has gone on in the US over the last number of years and to conclude that not only do you disagree with the protests, but that you think it is more racist in nature than the acts which initiated the protests.

You are trying to convince people it's nothing to do with America.. But then reference America :<

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Lol. There it is. Players who have been targeted by racists have said that this is why they are protesting and you flat out choose to not to believe them .

Justify that in your own head any way you want, all I am sure is that the racists who are reading this thread are rubbing their hands in glee when they read that.

And let me be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, before you spend the rest of the day saying that is what was said, I'm saying that your position pleases people who are racist towards footballers or want to pretend there isn't a problem.

I'm not even going to go in to the decision to look at everything that has gone on in the US over the last number of years and to conclude that not only do you disagree with the protests, but that you think it is more racist in nature than the acts which initiated the protests.

I'm bored of this.

The players took the knee to support BLM. This knee was a gesture that explicitly was used to support BLM and to promote them.

A month or two down the line, they have all of a sudden decided to continue using the exact same gesture, THE EXACT SAME GESTURE, and just because they now state it has absolutely nothing to do with BLM (despite it having everything to do with BLM weeks ago) and you expect people to not draw parallels?

The respect initiative, kick it out, everything else was accepted as a tool to combat racism in football and was widely respected.

It's not coincidence that the use of this gesture is roundly met with more distain than any other anti racist campaign, and that's because of its association (intentional or not) with a racist movement like BLM.

As was pointed out above, I doubt racists are rubbing their hands with glee at the thoughts of people wanting to come up with an initiative to combat racism which wouldn't divide everyone and which would unite people rather than divide them.

The fact you even asked people were they ashamed to be 'pleasing racists' shows how little you understand.

Tell me how

Hhhhh wrote: »

Did you miss the 'in the minds of some' part of that post or...
.

Not at all. I think you are part of the group of some. You want evidence of that? Try reading the thread.

Hhhhh wrote: »

I'm advocating for the use of a new gesture, such as the pointing to the respect logo.

Maybe at one point I'd agree, but at this point given the reaction to the kneeling, I think that would be a victory for those who want to undermine the players message.

The booing and the conversation around it is now the biggest part of this topic.
A gesture without a conversation would be meaningless as it definitely wouldn't lead to action. That's not to say action will definitely come out of kneeling, but it is quite productive in drawing attention to things, that's for sure.

Hhhhh wrote: »

So which racists are advocating for that? Evidence please.

Stop asking me for evidence of things I haven't said.
You are advocating the players stop kneeling, I am saying that you advocating for that pleases the racists.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not even going to go in to the decision to look at everything that has gone on in the US over the last number of years and to conclude that not only do you disagree with the protests, but that you think it is more racist in nature than the acts which initiated the protests.

I do. If you are referring to George Floyd.

Tell me how

Hhhhh wrote: »

You are trying to convince people it's nothing to do with America.. But then reference America :<

For the love of God, are you deliberately misconstruing how posts and discussions work or is this genuinely your reading comprehension level?

the poster implied something in their post, I responded to that as a separate and unrelated part of the rest of the content in my post.

Am I going to have to start dividing my responses up in to separate posts for you?

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm bored of this.

The players took the knee to support BLM. This knee was a gesture that explicitly was used to support BLM and to promote them.

A month or two down the line, they have all of a sudden decided to continue using the exact same gesture, THE EXACT SAME GESTURE, and just because they now state it has absolutely nothing to do with BLM (despite it having everything to do with BLM weeks ago) and you expect people to not draw parallels?

The respect initiative, kick it out, everything else was accepted as a tool to combat racism in football and was widely respected.

It's not coincidence that the use of this gesture is roundly met with more distain than any other anti racist campaign, and that's because of its association (intentional or not) with a racist movement like BLM.

As was pointed out above, I doubt racists are rubbing their hands with glee at the thoughts of people wanting to come up with an initiative to combat racism which wouldn't divide everyone and which would unite people rather than divide them.

The fact you even asked people were they ashamed to be 'pleasing racists' shows how little you understand.

And you, like Hhhhh haven't understood (or are pretending you haven't) what I said.

And you talk about understanding...

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Not at all. I think you are part of the group of some. You want evidence of that? Try reading the thread.

Haha try reading the thread. Give me evidence. A post that backs up what you believe. You've a tendency to build strawmans around those you are discussing things with. So, evidence?

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe at one point I'd agree, but at this point given the reaction to the kneeling, I think that would be a victory for those who want to undermine the players message.

The booing and the conversation around it is now the biggest part of this topic.
A gesture without a conversation would be meaningless as it definitely wouldn't lead to action. That's not to say action will definitely come out of kneeling, but it is quite productive in drawing attention to things, that's for sure.

Little of the conversation has been around effective steps to end this racism. You posted up things that could be done, but those points were already in place. The knee, rightly or wrongly, has become divisive and a distraction.

Tell me how wrote: »

Stop asking me for evidence of things I haven't said.
You are advocating the players stop kneeling, I am saying that you advocating for that pleases the racists.

I'm adovacting for a different anti-racism measure, such as pointing at the respect badge, which will be less divisive. Why racists would be happy with that is beyond me. Racists are more likely to be happier with the knee as it is divisive and a distraction.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

For the love of God, are you deliberately misconstruing how posts and discussions work or is this genuinely your reading comprehension level?

the poster implied something in their post, I responded to that as a separate and unrelated part of the rest of the content in my post.

Am I going to have to start dividing my responses up in to separate posts for you?

Where's your evidence that I am 'part of the group of some'? Try backing up what you say with evidence before you start talking of others reading comprehension.

Bobblehats

Hhhhh wrote: »

I'm advocating for a different anti-racism measure, such as pointing at the respect badge, which will be less divisive. Why racists would be happy with that is beyond me. Racists are more likely to be happier with the knee as it is divisive and a distraction.

Not happy with it myself I’ve no interest in anything that puts racism at the front of peoples conscience, and sours the atmosphere before a ball has even been kicked. There’s enough “anti-racism” measures but the most profound one, the most effective one would be to just not give it grounds to breathe. Stamp it out