Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

gmisk

Cordell wrote: »

Well, there was the odd banana thrown into the pitch and the odd chanting that never made the news, but now booing is broadcasted worldwide.
If you ask me, if there is a racism problem in Europe this is making it worse.

If there is a racism problem? Come on now..

So it's best to just accept that there is racism and do nothing? That is your solution, brilliant.

I am not saying England is the worst,there have been improvements and an effort is being made.
The racism on show in some Italian matches is insane.

Pawwed Rig

nazmoalex wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge the first soccer team to take the knee were Liverpool, after the death of George Floyd, at Anfield with no match or anything. It was done for PR, by a club owned by Americans. Was that politically motivated? You'd have to ask the owners.

After them publicly backing a former player (Luis Suarez) after he racially abused another player during a match I would think they wanted to be on the right side of the debate for a change.

Dyr

I see people are still trotting out the motte and bailey fallacy for BLM

The jigs up lads, find another one.

atilladehun

atilladehun wrote: »

As for the kneeling, it's the first of a thousand step journey, or some old proverb like that.

What does the thousandth step look like? If this was a journey with a tangible end goal, I think people would be on board. But I think it's an overblown problem - black people face bigger barriers to success from within their own community - gang crime, black on black violence, absent fathers being the big ones.

Danzy

It's labeled and presented as one thing by the millionaires doing it, and the majority white middle class that laud it over their evening brandy.

In its home America, it was not even accepted by most black players or club staff, then again it wasn't about them.

How long will it go on, till those doing it, get no thrill from doing it and especially talking about it.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

I wonder how many fans booing the knee are gonna boo/protest/boycott said world cup. Let's not pretend they're booing the hypocrisy, they're booing a gesture that challenges their own world view and the whataboutery "defence" along with "racism isn't that bad" attitude only goes to show why the knee is needed.

Well the booers maybe racists. It’s perfectly legitimate for the rest of us to ask why the knee is allowed and not Palestinian flags, why mcclean is not supported by the FA, why opposing wearing a poppy isn’t protected, why there aren’t other protests allowed like anti war protests (by players). Pogba got away with the Palestine flag but was warned not to do it again. The cynic in me would argue this is more about American cultural imperialism than anything else.

Players will be wearing the poppy and taking the knee in November no doubt, while British supplied bombs rain down on Yemen.

lawred2

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So Europe has got it's racism problem sort? Well how do you explain the right wing fascism of the governments in Hungary or Poland? Or booing of players making a gesture against racism?

People who go on about racism will never be happy? Why should they be. As has been said racism will probably never go away but just because it could be lessened or under control doesn't mean that every incident of racism shouldnt be treated with contempt and highlighted as a disgusting act.

was that what was said?

I see sheep

nazmoalex wrote: »

Well the owners are American.... Also I said to the best of my knowledge. Please enlighten me.

Marcus Thuram was the first player in European football to take a knee, he was followed by a number of Dortmund players including England's Jadon Sancho.

After seeing this, a number of Liverpool players met with their captain Jordan Henderson and said they would like to take the knee a gesture of solidarity with other players who were doing so.

Henderson agreed and it was agreed amongst all the players they would do so.

It had nothing to do with 'American Owners' I don't know where you read those lies. (Well I probably do, some daft right wing website I guess).

jaykay74

Deleted User wrote: »

What does the thousandth step look like? If this was a journey with a tangible end goal, I think people would be on board. But I think it's an overblown problem - black people face bigger barriers to success from within their own community - gang crime, black on black violence, absent fathers being the big ones.

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

Wombatman

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/intermilan/status/1402334265904402440?s=19

From a player that was recently abused. But the boards experts say it isn't a problem anymore and when players take a stand taken against it, it's because they're "sermonising."

There is still racism in football, but to say it is at an all time high is a complete untruth and should be challenged. Black players couldn't even join clubs in the early days FFS.

irishgrover

Eric Cartman wrote: »

BLM is a radical reactionary group that participate in acts that could be described as terror (riots etc. In the US)

Bringing politics into sport supporting that group is denigrating the sport

I do believe every player taking the knee outside the US is wrong, every player in the US I feel isnt choosing the best way to vent their frustrations.

It's hard to respond appropriately when the argument is this stupid

Cordell

gmisk wrote: »

If there is a racism problem? Come on now..

So it's best to just accept that there is racism and do nothing? That is your solution, brilliant.

Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

So it's best to just accept that there is racism and do nothing? That is your solution, brilliant.

Which wasn't said. We have laws. We have social conditioning against racism. And that's been ongoing for decades... which is hardly nothing...

What do you expect to see that's different from what's already being done?

FunLover18

Cordell wrote: »

Well, there was the odd banana thrown into the pitch and the odd chanting that never made the news, but now booing is broadcasted worldwide.
If you ask me, if there is a racism problem in Europe this is making it worse.

So they should stop protesting racism because it's agitating the racists? Did you actually read that back and think about what you'd just written?

*If* there is a racism problem? FFS, we're talking about a movement that is telling you there's a racism problem.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What does the thousandth step look like? If this was a journey with a tangible end goal, I think people would be on board. But I think it's an overblown problem - black people face bigger barriers to success from within their own community - gang crime, black on black violence, absent fathers being the big ones.

So let's blame black people for their issues and not the systemic racism that keeps them in poverty.

I think you'll find that those issues are exclusive to black people but have been proven to be linked to poverty.

Don't try to argue otherwise. There's a mountain of scientific research and papers published to back up that up and any published material stating otherwise has been found out as lies being pushed by a racist idiot.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

It's labeled and presented as one thing by the millionaires doing it, and the majority white middle class that laud it over their evening brandy.

In its home America, it was not even accepted by most black players or club staff, then again it wasn't about them.

How long will it go on, till those doing it, get no thrill from doing it and especially talking about it.

Very true. There is a big disconnect between the journalist/media class and the rest of society. The media have to tow the line unquestioningly or face being ostracised from their profession. Someone like Jonathan Liew is making the divisions far worse than they otherwise would, and his career is booming off the back of exaggerated racism. The bigger the problem, the better he looks by writing opinion pieces about it.

suicide_circus

During the whole furore around George Floyd i could almost see where this gesture could have meaning but his killer has been dealt with, his family are millionaires, Trump has been vanquished, protests have largely dried up and the world has kept turning.

extra gravy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Your points stagger from wrong to dumb and back again

suicide_circus wrote: »

Perhaps if they knelt on both knees the racism would cease?

Great insight from yourself again.

Billgirlylegs

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't agree with the booing. Everyone should have a right to protest although some causes are more acceptable to the establishment than others. Would be nice to see how an Anti-Israeli protest would go down. Could happen in the Euros btw.

Players should also have the right not to protest and no player should be put under pressure to do so if they don't want to.

There used to be this thing in US Golf where military service people would hold the flag on one of the holes while the players were putting. They flag was changed to the stars and stripes for this hole. Players were expected to shake hands with the service person when walking to the next hole. Many of the players were from other parts of the world and may not have agreed with US foreign policy. I can only imagine the media sh1t fit there would have been if a player indicated dissent by not doing the hand shake.

Was at US basketball game with the family and we sat through the national anthem. Got a few dirty looks. Not my anthem buddy.

Case of "When in Rome".
You were showing disrespect to "The Flag" ie the traditions, values and people of the country.

As regards taking the knee, it is a particularly American thing to do.
Colin Kaepernick wanted to protest that he, as a person of colour, was not entirely represented (respected?) in American Society, and could not in conscience swear allegiance publicly to "The Flag" or The National Anthem. He canvassed US military personnel to ask what is a respectful protest. They told him sitting/turning his back is disrespectful, but suggested facing the flag while kneeling (showing respect) was acceptable. That was five or six years ago and he got some bits and pieces of support, but his career was finished over it, and it hardly merits a mention now.

What English players do before the match is a harmless, trivial protest.
Whether there is any point to it or whether it will have any effect is immaterial.
No disrespect is shown, and it is done in consultation with opposition and referee.

Other countries may take a different view.
International teams may take different action. I understand that Hungary players made a personal gesture by pointing to their "Respect/Anti Racism" armbands.
The Irish kneeled. Did they consult beforehand to find out what was the local practice. Kneeling may have been seen to be disrespectful.

nazmoalex

I see sheep wrote: »

Marcus Thuram was the first player in European football to take a knee, he was followed by a number of Dortmund players including England's Jadon Sancho.
.

So Liverpool were the first 'team' to do it then or not?
I genuinely don't know.

No need for the snide comments.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So let's blame black people for their issues and not the systemic racism that keeps them in poverty.

I think you'll find that those issues are exclusive to black people but have been proven to be linked to poverty.

Don't try to argue otherwise. There's a mountain of scientific research and papers published to back up that up and any published material stating otherwise has been found out as lies being pushed by a racist idiot.

What systemic racism keeps black people in poverty? How has Raheem Sterling, Tyrone Mings etc. escaped that "systemic racism" to earn the millions they currently earn?

The answer is that there is no system keeping them down. Black players like Sterling/Mings have, through merit, talent and hard work, have risen to the top of the game and deserve every penny they earn.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which wasn't said. We have laws. We have social conditioning against racism. And that's been ongoing for decades... which is hardly nothing...

What do you expect to see that's different from what's already being done?

Well that is great. But it obviously isn't good enough as there are still problems with racism around the world, even it supposedly developed nations. Why rest on your laurels when these laws can be improved and amended to make things better.

Also the likes of Hungary, Russia and Poland show what can happen when you take the foot off the pedal and allow far right and racist thinking fester.

So what exactly is the harm in highlighting that people are still experiencing racism and that the current measures aren't enough to combat it? Where is the issue?

jam_mac_jam

jaykay74 wrote: »

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

How do you know he is white or a man?

Does the level of melatonin in your skin mean you have no right to an opinion. Regardless of what that opinion is.

Is that not racist?

Danzy

There is talk that ticket prices in the English game are going to have a steep rise in the next season.

So that's one way of solving the booing, make the crowds less working class.

Get an audience who gets more of a thrill out of American issues.

There is also a lot of work to be done on convincing people that it has anything to do with racism.

FunLover18

kildare lad wrote: »

I'm talking about the footballers not the fans . If they really believed in social justice they should just boycott the world cup.

Oh please, that's nonsense. You're playing whataboutery to undermine the knee. If you want to talk about the WC I'm sure there's a thread for it somewhere.

I see sheep

nazmoalex wrote: »

So Liverpool were the first 'team' to do it then or not?
I genuinely don't know.

No need for the snide comments.

I'm not your butler. I've already told you but you can google it as you please.

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

I can only compare with how it used to be. Bananas thrown at players. Monkey chants etc. That was ugly, horrible racism.

However that type of stuff has been almost completely eradicated from the game in England, bar the odd isolated incident. That's what I mean by it being overblown. The Kick it Out campaign was almost dead up until a couple of years ago, victims of their great success at getting rid of racism from football. Then social media came in, people started virtue signalling to boost their profiles, and all of a sudden people are running around in mass hysteria thinking their is endemic racism rife in football. Very little specifics though. Just a handful of incidents considering the amount of minutes of football that gets played every week.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What systemic racism keeps black people in poverty? How has Raheem Sterling, Tyrone Mings etc. escaped that "systemic racism" to earn the millions they currently earn?

The answer is that there is no system keeping them down. Black players like Sterling/Mings have, through merit, talent and hard work, have risen to the top of the game and deserve every penny they earn.

Another logical fallacy. Sterling and Mings are exceptions to the rule rather than every black kid out there should be multimillionaire footballers with a little hard work and elbow grease. Can you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

FunLover18

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well the booers maybe racists. It’s perfectly legitimate for the rest of us to ask why the knee is allowed and not Palestinian flags, why mcclean is not supported by the FA, why opposing wearing a poppy isn’t protected, why there aren’t other protests allowed like anti war protests (by players). Pogba got away with the Palestine flag but was warned not to do it again. The cynic in me would argue this is more about American cultural imperialism than anything else.

Players will be wearing the poppy and taking the knee in November no doubt, while British supplied bombs rain down on Yemen.

This is a thread specifically about the booers. Let's not all feign surprise at the hypocrisy in football at once? I'm all for players and football tackling those issues too and I hate the poppy but the knee is about one specific issue and you either support that or not. Playing whataboutery only serves to undermine it.

gmisk

Cordell wrote: »

Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

Ah come on lad it's only casual racism....

"Europe has no history of racism" are you joking? Europe was not involved in the slave trade, forced colonisation etc....lol....