Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

No problem. I can see you needed a hand with your comprehension.

But anyway, if you honestly think that the majority of people support BLM and the kneeling gesture, then I wholly disagree.

If you think most people are anti racist, then I wholly agree

If you believe that people who oppose the kneeling gesture are de facto not anti racist, then I wholly disagree.

In bold was my OP. That is why most large companies supports anti-racist messaging, their customers and staff want them to

Now, the 'vocal minority' we're talking about here are those who boo or spend endless hours on boards moaning every time black people protest. Anyone who believes they are 'anti-racist' and carry on like the above need to take a good long look in the mirror, while any claiming those response is supported by a 'silent majority' just shows pure delusion.

Sand

Foxtrol wrote: »

In bold was my OP. That is why most large companies supports anti-racist messaging, their customers and staff want them to

Not really. Most large companies are globalist in orientation - they want product fans. So MCU fans. McDonalds fans. Apple fans. Etc etc. People who define themselves by their productivity and their consumption and how both define them as individuals. Groups that define themselves outside of consumption of corporate products are threatening to corporations.

It might be chicken and egg, but given the huge media tools available to them it is very improbable to think that huge global corporations are the sheep and not the shepherds.

Foxtrol

Sand wrote: »

Not really. Most large companies are globalist in orientation - they want product fans. So MCU fans. McDonalds fans. Apple fans. Etc etc. People who define themselves by their productivity and their consumption and how both define them as individuals. Groups that define themselves outside of consumption of corporate products are threatening to corporations.

It might be chicken and egg, but given the huge media tools available to them it is very improbable to think that huge global corporations are the sheep and not the shepherds.

Shepherds like Fox News and their fans... :rolleyes:

The above is a good conspiracy theory, though I do agree that large companies try to do some level of shepherding around the edges but no where near the extent you're implying. We've seen time and again how customers and staff have control - if they don't like a move a large company makes they push back.

To believe what you're saying above would mean the right's 'cancel culture' boogeyman is all in their heads.

Sand

Foxtrol wrote: »

Shepherds like Fox News and their fans... :rolleyes:

The above is a good conspiracy theory, though I do agree that large companies try to do some level of shepherding around the edges but no where near the extent you're implying. We've seen time and again how customers and staff have control - if they don't like a move a large company makes they push back.

To believe what you're saying above would mean the right's 'cancel culture' boogeyman is all in their heads.

Do you have any evidence of your conspiracy theory that customers of large companies are colluding to force these companies to accept ideologies like anti-racism? Have fans been holding demonstrations outside football grounds to demand players take a knee?

The reality is that this stuff is punching down, as opposed to punching up. This partly explains the negative reaction as fans are allowed back into the stadiums.

Foxtrol

Sand wrote: »

Do you have any evidence of your conspiracy theory that customers of large companies are colluding to force these companies to accept ideologies like anti-racism?

What nonsense are you talking about? Why would there be a conspiracy or collusion?

Customers and staff want to align themselves with companies and brands that mirror their values - whether they are on the left and the right. It is basic business.

Have fans been holding demonstrations outside football grounds to demand players take a knee?

No but their staff are demanding it, like in many companies.

The reality is that this stuff is punching down, as opposed to punching up. This partly explains the negative reaction as fans are allowed back into the stadiums.

Much more likely the reason is the demographics that attend games and the fact that the same fans regularly shout extremely offensive things, when they aren't attacking each other.

Sand

Foxtrol wrote: »

What nonsense are you talking about? Why would there be a conspiracy or collusion?

Customers and staff want to align themselves with companies and brands that mirror their values - whether they are on the left and the right. It is basic business.

So you have no evidence that customers are mass-organizing to force companies to take these stances? So your assertion that the companies are forced to respond to demand is baseless. Okay.

Much more likely the reason is the demographics that attend games and the fact that the same fans regularly shout extremely offensive things, when they aren't attacking each other.

Your belief that this is true betrays how ludicrous it is to think that the same fans shouting 'extremely offensive things, when they aren't attacking each other' are at the same time organizing to demand companies take these stances.

Lets talk honestly - it is punching down, and the fans in the stands are the targets of the condemnation not the organizers. The fans know it instinctively. Hence the negative reaction.

Foxtrol

Sand wrote: »

So you have no evidence that customers are mass-organizing to force companies to take these stances? So your assertion that the companies are forced to respond to demand is baseless. Okay.

Congrats on knocking down a strawman, I never said anything like that.

Your belief that this is true betrays how ludicrous it is to think that the same fans shouting 'extremely offensive things, when they aren't attacking each other' are at the same time organizing to demand companies take these stances.

What are you talking about?

I said the staff of the clubs, i.e. the players, drove that movement. The local fans that attend games are a tiny, tiny piece of the revenue that big clubs generate - they are not the customers the clubs care about, which can be evidenced time and again.

Lets talk honestly - it is punching down, and the fans in the stands are the targets of the condemnation not the organizers. The fans know it instinctively. Hence the negative reaction.

Of course those that are booing are being condemned, they are pathetically booing a peaceful few seconds long anti-racism protest.

Fandymo

Foxtrol wrote: »

Teams took a knee after the anthem had finished and they were booed, other teams stayed in the locker room and they were booed, some players raised their fists and were they booed, teams even had a moment of silence and they were booed for it.

Complaining about the type of protest is just an excuse, like it has always been when black people protest. For a large group of people it will always be 'the wrong way'.

Did the booing make him the second worst QB in the NFL??

Foxtrol

Fandymo wrote: »

Did the booing make him the second worst QB in the NFL??

You're just showing that you know absolutely nothing about American Football if you think he was the second worst contracted QB that year.

He was 'cancelled' because of his peaceful protest against racism.

Fandymo

Foxtrol wrote: »

You're just showing that you know absolutely nothing about American Football if you think he was the second worst contracted QB that year.

He was 'cancelled' because of his peaceful protest against racism.

Yep, nothing at all to do with being absolutely useless. Fox News must have known he was gonna start kneeling, because the below is from before he decided kneeling self promotion was the key to more cash.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/you-probably-forgot-how-bad-colin-kaepernick-was-last-year

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

Yep, nothing at all to do with being absolutely useless. Fox News must have known he was gonna start kneeling, because the below is from before he decided kneeling self promotion was the key to more cash.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/you-probably-forgot-how-bad-colin-kaepernick-was-last-year

The fact the NFL settled indicates they didn't think they were gonna win the case on collusion..

[QUOTE=Foxtrol;117514495

Now, the 'vocal minority' we're talking about here are those who boo or spend endless hours on boards moaning every time black people protest. Anyone who believes they are 'anti-racist' and carry on like the above need to take a good long look in the mirror, while any claiming those response is supported by a 'silent majority' just shows pure delusion.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who boos the BLM gesture or disagree with the BLM movement should take a look at themselves? Not people who disagree with EVERY anti racism protest?

Because, almost 100% of the people here are giving out about one singular gesture.

You wouldn't by any chance lumping everyone who opposes one gesture as people who are against anti racism campaigns?

Surely you couldn't because that would be dishonest and you wouldn't do that.

It's clear that people oppose the gesture and not the fact that the players are protesting racist. That was made clear aaaaages ago.

Sound.

The silent majority angle? That's a different debate we will have again. I do believe that many people do not say in polite company what they actually believe so as not to be vilified.

It's anecdotal so don't want to get into it right now, but I think you are mistaken if you think the public are as progressive as media and social media tell you.

So what next?

Foxtrol

Fandymo wrote: »

Yep, nothing at all to do with being absolutely useless. Fox News must have known he was gonna start kneeling, because the below is from before he decided kneeling self promotion was the key to more cash.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/you-probably-forgot-how-bad-colin-kaepernick-was-last-year

An opinion piece on Fox Sports that the writer didn't even put their name to is your only source? :rolleyes:

I am a 49ers fan and unfortunately had to sit through every game in both seasons they note in that article. The coward that wrote it glosses over his injuries and selectively ignored how poor the team was after a ridiculous number of retirements and free agent losses and how absolute dirt the coaching was - both the coaches were fired and deemed so bad they haven't had another NFL head coaching job since (don't believe they even had an interveiw). The top QBs in the league would have put up poor stats in that situation.

Your ignorance is also showing based on the fact that so many backup QBs have barely even thrown passes and teams preferred them to a QB that lead his team to a Super Bowl game and an NFC Championship game in back to back years.

The right cancelled Kaep and the NFL colluded in making sure it happened - it is why they had to pay him off.

Demonique

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Booing people disrespecting the anthem and the game for taking a knee to support a reactionary terror group is not racist.

It pleases me greatly to see 'banned' under your name

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who boos the BLM gesture or disagree with the BLM movement should take a look at themselves? Not people who disagree with EVERY anti racism protest?

Because, almost 100% of the people here are giving out about one singular gesture.

You wouldn't by any chance lumping everyone who opposes one gesture as people who are against anti racism campaigns?

Surely you couldn't because that would be dishonest and you wouldn't do that.

It's clear that people oppose the gesture and not the fact that the players are protesting racist. That was made clear aaaaages ago.

Sound.

Those who are booing are booing an anti-racism protest. No matter what way you try to twist things that is what they are doing

The players have repeatedly distanced themselves from BLM - you don't get to cling to that. We've seen time and again how no matter how black people protest certain people will find a way to say it is the 'wrong way'.

The silent majority angle? That's a different debate we will have again. I do believe that many people do not say in polite company what they actually believe so as not to be vilified.

It's anecdotal so don't want to get into it right now, but I think you are mistaken if you think the public are as progressive as media and social media tell you.

So what next?

Not sure where you're going with that, the silent majority discussion came about due to one of the boo supporters claim that big companies marketing campaigns were driven to satisfy a minority of vocal elements want to push anti-racism message. You seem to agree with me that it isn't the minority that hold these views.

Deleted User wrote: »

If you think most people are anti racist, then I wholly agree

The loud minority are the ones that get so outraged every time they see a protest with that message. Their masks slip so easily.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Those who are booing are booing an anti-racism protest. No matter what way you try to twist things that is what they are doing

The players have repeatedly distanced themselves from BLM - you don't get to cling to that. We've seen time and again how no matter how black people protest certain people will find a way to say it is the 'wrong way'.

That's simply not true.

And it's telling that you are espousing that it is telling "black people to protest a certain way".

No. It's not. And why is it only black people you feel are being told to protest a certain way?

The gesture is linked to BLM. Regardless of what anyone else says. It's intrinsically linked because of the actions of racist thugs over the past year or so.

The booing isn't booing anti racism, it's booing the gesture. Evidence of which is the fact they cheer every player afterwards.

It's voicing displeasure at every single person, regardless of race, performing a gesture which is associated with a racist group (BLM).

Nobody is telling black people how to protest. How absurd that reasoning is.

Your outrage and your need to be a saviour is unwarranted and unnecessary

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

That's simply not true.

And it's telling that you are espousing that it is telling "black people to protest a certain way".

No. It's not. And why is it only black people you feel are being told to protest a certain way?

The gesture is linked to BLM. Regardless of what anyone else says. It's intrinsically linked because of the actions of racist thugs over the past year or so.

The booing isn't booing anti racism, it's booing the gesture. Evidence of which is the fact they cheer every player afterwards.

It's voicing displeasure at every single person, regardless of race, performing a gesture which is associated with a racist group (BLM).

Nobody is telling black people how to protest. How absurd that reasoning is.

Your outrage and your need to be a saviour is unwarranted and unnecessary

That is literally what the fans and you are doing - you've said over and over again that they shouldn't protest in the way they want to because of your feelings. It is pathetic.

jakiah

Foxtrol wrote: »

That is literally what the fans and you are doing - you've said over and over again that they shouldn't protest in the way they want to because of your feelings. It is pathetic.

So were back to the protest being about BLM are we? I thought it was a generic anti-racism thing now, not specific to Black people?

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

That is literally what the fans and you are doing - you've said over and over again that they shouldn't protest in the way they want to because of your feelings. It is pathetic.

They shouldn't expect support if they use a gesture associated with BLM.

There is a difference between telling someone what to do and voicing displeasure about what they do.

World's apart.

I support their message, just not the way they deliver it.

That's a million miles away from how you are trying to frame it.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

They shouldn't expect support if they use a gesture associated with BLM.

There is a difference between telling someone what to do and voicing displeasure about what they do.

World's apart.

I support their message, just not the way they deliver it.

That's a million miles away from how you are trying to frame it.

No one is telling you that you must support them, we're just highlighting how scummy it is to boo them and what it says about you.

You can tie yourself in knots trying to excuse the actions by how you 'feel' but it is as clear as day.

We saw in the US how no matter how the NFL protested the same type of fans booed them. I'll say again, certain people will always be a reason why black people protesting is wrong.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

No one is telling you that you must support them, we're just highlighting how scummy it is to boo them and what it says about you.

You can tie yourself in knots trying to excuse the actions by how you 'feel' but it is as clear as day.

We saw in the US how no matter how the NFL protested the same type of fans booed them. I'll say again, certain people will always be a reason why black people protesting is wrong.

It's ok foxtrol, I'm not tying myself in knots. My opinion is consistent. I despise BLM and won't support anything that is slightly associated with it. So me opposing a gesture associated with BLM says what exactly about me?

Maybe that I'm against racism and wish millionaires would use a more unifying gesture in order to combat the real problem of racism rather than using one which does the opposite of what it is intended to do?

It's not remotely "scummy" to oppose BLM and be anti racist. I would agree it would be "scummy" to oppose BLM if the reasoning was because you were a fan of racism, but as you know, that's not the case here.

And sure, some people (racists) will complain about black people protesting in any form.

That's not the case here.

Why would you even try to frame it as such?

That's extremely bad faith.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

It's ok foxtrol, I'm not tying myself in knots. My opinion is consistent. I despise BLM and won't support anything that is slightly associated with it. So me opposing a gesture associated with BLM says what exactly about me?

Maybe that I'm against racism and wish millionaires would use a more unifying gesture in order to combat the real problem of racism rather than using one which does the opposite of what it is intended to do?

It's not remotely "scummy" to oppose BLM and be anti racist. I would agree it would be "scummy" to oppose BLM if the reasoning was because you were a fan of racism, but as you know, that's not the case here.

And sure, some people (racists) will complain about black people protesting in any form.

That's not the case here.

Why would you even try to frame it as such?

That's extremely bad faith.

Evidence of the bold?

Booing an anti-racism protest seems exactly what racists would do - plenty of booing and abuse of Kaepernick, despite how it was before BLM used it and who kneeling was to make it a more of a 'unifying gesture'.

Making up an excuse to boo an anti-racism protest seems exactly what racists trying to keep a mask on would do - these folk found a new excuse to boo no matter what way players protested.

I'm sure there is a group that have some weird obsession with the BLM organisation that they'll boo an anti-racism protest to show it but I'd argue there is many more of those first two groups than this one.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Evidence of the bold?

Booing an anti-racism protest seems exactly what racists would do - plenty of booing and abuse of Kaepernick, despite how it was before BLM used it and who kneeling was to make it a more of a 'unifying gesture'.

Making up an excuse to boo an anti-racism protest seems exactly what racists trying to keep a mask on would do - these folk found a new excuse to boo no matter what way players protested.

I'm sure there is a group that have some weird obsession with the BLM organisation that they'll boo an anti-racism protest to show it but I'd argue there is many more of those first two groups than this one.

Cool.

But bring that theory to the conspiracy theories forum.

I'm talking about people who have expressly said they are booing the knee because of the gesture and not the message.

I've no time for racists.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool.

But bring that theory to the conspiracy theories forum.

I'm talking about people who have expressly said they are booing the knee because of the gesture and not the message.

I've no time for racists.

You've spoken to all the fans that booed???

Blaming the gesture is exactly what the second group of people would do - racists that wan to keep their veil up.

So you believe a few fans speak for a disparate group involved in booing yet do not believe the players expressly and repeatedly stating that their protest has nothing to do with BLM? Not surprising at all.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've spoken to all the fans that booed???

Blaming the gesture is exactly what the second group of people would do - racists that wan to keep their veil up.

So you believe a few fans speak for a disparate group involved in booing yet do not believe the players expressly and repeatedly stating that their protest has nothing to do with BLM? Not surprising at all.

I've not claimed to have spoken to everyone that has booed.

Not even hinted that I have.

I'm saying that I completely understand why people who aren't racist refuse to support the kneeling.

I don't claim to speak for anyone.

Again, despite your consistent attempts to frame me as a racist sympathiser, and I can't be clearer than this:

I AM TOTALLY AGAINST RACISM.

I also believe that the taking the knee gesture is divisive due to its association with BLM and wish the teams who continue to take the knee would use a different gesture or method of protesting so as to unite people who are against racism.

Now ****ing frame that as me being a dog whistling racist or whatever you want to do.

Ahwell

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool.

But bring that theory to the conspiracy theories forum.

I'm talking about people who have expressly said they are booing the knee because of the gesture and not the message.

I've no time for racists.

I don't doubt for a second that some of the English supporters are booing for racist reasons, and therefore, I believe there is an onus on non-racists not to knowingly boo along with the racists.

Ahwell

Ahwell wrote: »

I don't doubt for a second that some of the English supporters are booing for racist reasons, and therefore, I believe there is an onus on non-racists not to knowingly boo along with the racists.

I disagree.

If I am not being racist, there is no onus on me to prove it.

If someone has a legitimate reason for booing the gesture which is not racist, they do not need to prove themselves.

Bizarre that you think otherwise.

Ahwell

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree.

If I am not being racist, there is no onus on me to prove it.

If someone has a legitimate reason for booing the gesture which is not racist, they do not need to prove themselves.

Bizarre that you think otherwise.

I don't think they have a legitimate reason to boo.

Ahwell

Ahwell wrote: »

I don't think they have a legitimate reason to boo.

That's ok. You don't have to agree with them.

But I think they do. So I'm ok with it.

I'm assuming both of us are against racism?

You get your gesture happening... Win for you.

People protest what I feel is a racist gesture.... Win for me.

I see the booing in a different way than you do, but it's ok as it's only a blip in the couple of seconds before the match where we forget about it and enjoy the football

I'm sure there are some racists booing for their own reasons, but I assume the vast majority are doing so out of frustration and because they disagree with the gesture.

Ahwell

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure there are some racists booing for their own reasons, but I assume the vast majority are doing so out of frustration and because they disagree with the gesture.

I would assume it's the other way around. There has always been a racist element attached to English supporters. There has been no issue with Wales taking the knee, or at least no booing.