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Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

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    #62
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,552 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Shebean wrote: »
    We've at least one meat packing plant uses foreign workers who pay tax in their native country, because it's cheaper labour for the Irish company. Maybe Facebook are catching up?

    It will be interesting if it pans out that way. Imagine all the big tech companies based here but employing nobody? We'll see if all those jobs are the real reason we treat them so well on taxation.
    If they are working here they will pay tax here. I presume they will be on the minimum wage, but that will presumably be quite a bit more than they can earn in their home country. It's not that they are cheaper - I suspect it's that no-one in Ireland will do that job and indeed many may stay on Government supports rather than working for the minimum wage in a meat plant


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    They will hire for the Dublin office but those employees won't have to be living here or paying income taxes here. Get it?

    They can only hire where they have a legal presence. And that was always the case. I think that they are saying to people living in countries where Facebook already pays corporate tax that they can stay there.

    I've heard the opposite story about this. Another big US company which is big into online shopping has told its staff to get back to Dublin as soon as possible.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Beasty wrote: »
    If they are working here they will pay tax here. I presume they will be on the minimum wage, but that will presumably be quite a bit more than they can earn in their home country. It's not that they are cheaper - I suspect it's that no-one in Ireland will do that job and indeed many may stay on Government supports rather than working for the minimum wage in a meat plant

    Of course in the absence of a large pool of labour the companies would have to hire locals.


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    #65
    Shebean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Beasty wrote: »
    If they are working here they will pay tax here. I presume they will be on the minimum wage, but that will presumably be quite a bit more than they can earn in their home country. It's not that they are cheaper - I suspect it's that no-one in Ireland will do that job and indeed many may stay on Government supports rather than working for the minimum wage in a meat plant

    It came to light during a Covid outbreak.

    It includes subcontractors and agencies, and results in foreign workers in Irish meat factories paying tax in Poland instead of Ireland.
    The Journal claims to have seen documents that reveal a scheme in which foreign workers in Irish meat factories were registered as sole traders in Poland — and paid their tax in that country instead of Ireland.
    This meant the firm did not have to pay tax and PRSI contributions for those workers in this country.
    It also meant the workers were not entitled to any of the social security supports, such as illness benefit payments from the Irish government.https://www.oceanfm.ie/2020/07/30/questions-over-how-meat-factories-recruit-and-employ-foreign-workers/

    A great number of Romanian workers for years were cheated out of their social security rights in Ireland by the employment agency who was hiring them to work in several meat plants in Munster, a union representative has told the Oireachtas committee on Covid-19.
    Nora Labo of the Cork Operative Butchers’ Society - a branch of the Independent Workers’ Union - said the Romanian nationals were employed as self-employed contractors declared in Poland.
    She said “all their contributions were sent to Polish, not Irish revenue, even though all these people were working full time in Ireland for years and had no ties to Poland”.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/overseas-meat-plant-workers-cheated-out-of-social-security-rights-1.4329467


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    #66
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    fvp4 wrote: »
    I've heard the opposite story about this. Another big US company which is big into online shopping has told its staff to get back to Dublin as soon as possible.


    Yeah this started happening last year with the big companies like Google FB et al, from what i was told revenue basically said to them their employees registered as working in Irish offices need to be living here or there's gonna be a whole heap of tax and legal issues.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-tells-workers-to-return-to-country-where-they-are-employed-1.4367674


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    #67
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Yeah this started happening last year with the big companies like Google FB et al, from what i was told revenue basically said to them their employees registered as working in Irish offices need to be living here or there's gonna be a whole heap of tax and legal issues.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-tells-workers-to-return-to-country-where-they-are-employed-1.4367674


    It sounds to me like Facebook are accepting all those legal and tax issues for the designated 7 or 8 European countries. After that it's up to the employee where they want to live.



    Bad for Dublin.


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    #68
    PaybackPayroll
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭PaybackPayroll


    Beasty wrote: »
    If they are working here they will pay tax here. I presume they will be on the minimum wage, but that will presumably be quite a bit more than they can earn in their home country. It's not that they are cheaper - I suspect it's that no-one in Ireland will do that job and indeed many may stay on Government supports rather than working for the minimum wage in a meat plant

    Not sure of the ins and outs of this, but I believe you have to be here 183 days to be tax resident. It might be possible that they are tax resident elsewhere and do seasonal labour in Ireland


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    #69
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    riclad wrote: »
    i don,t think staff will be allowed work from home 5 days a week, maybe 3 or 4 days a week.
    i think facebook needs office in eu to comply with gdpr data regulations.
    the uk has left the eu .where are they going to go, taxs are higher in other whet countrys ,most citys have high rents in most countrys in the eu.
    its too early to say what will happen ,maybe we will know in 12 months time.

    Taxes are higher? Higher than 50% of everything you earn above €35k? Because that’s what Ireland has to offer right now.


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    #70
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,844 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    PaybackPayroll wrote: »
    Not sure of the ins and outs of this, but I believe you have to be here 183 days to be tax resident. It might be possible that they are tax resident elsewhere and do seasonal labour in Ireland

    You don't need to be tax resident here to fall subject to income tax.

    If you are tax resident in Ireland you are taxed in Ireland on all world income, but with tax credits granted for most taxes paid overseas (with a few exceptions).

    If you are non-tax resident in Ireland you are taxed on all income earned in Ireland, but not taxed on any income earned outside of Ireland.


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/tax-residence/index.aspx


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    #71
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    It sounds to me like Facebook are accepting all those legal and tax issues for the designated 7 or 8 European countries. After that it's up to the employee where they want to live.



    Bad for Dublin.


    At this stage you are just intentionally misunderstanding this because its been explained to you how your wrong several times now


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    #72
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    VinLieger wrote: »
    At this stage you are just intentionally misunderstanding this because its been explained to you how your wrong several times now


    Did you ever think you could be wrong in your opinion?


    The tax lawyers and other experts quoted in the Irishtimes are convinced this is a very significant change with wide ranging impact on ireland. You know more than them?


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    #73
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Did you ever think you could be wrong in your opinion?


    The tax lawyers and other experts quoted in the Irishtimes are convinced this is a very significant change with wide ranging impact on ireland. You know more than them?

    Because I work for a tech company that would be considered large globally but still nowhere near a FB or Google level and we don't allow and aren't gonna allow similar schemes due to how difficult they are to run. Very very few tech companies based in Dublin have corporate entities like Google and FB do in multiple other EU countries which is the first requirement of something like this so no I don't believe I am wrong.


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    #74
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Because I work for a tech company that would be considered large globally but still nowhere near a FB or Google level and we don't allow and aren't gonna allow similar schemes due to how difficult they are to run. Very very few tech companies based in Dublin have corporate entities like Google and FB do in multiple other EU countries which is the first requirement of something like this so no I don't believe I am wrong.

    This fella appears to be worried. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-s-tax-rates-a-major-disincentive-for-remote-workers-says-varakdar-1.4591155?mode=amp


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    #75
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    This fella appears to be worried. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-s-tax-rates-a-major-disincentive-for-remote-workers-says-varakdar-1.4591155?mode=amp

    Like others have previously mentioned tax rates and living costs are part of the calculation for pay rates in large multinational companies like this. Someone who is earning 100k in Ireland who chooses to move to an island in the Mediterranean where income tax and living costs are less will absolutely see a reduction in their salary. It will be a part of the agreement and contract change these companies will insist on for any employee choosing to do this.

    We might indeed see people moving but it remains to be seen the actual impact and it is definitely not the end of the world scenario some in this thread are masturbating over.


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    #76
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Like others have previously mentioned tax rates and living costs are part of the calculation for pay rates in large multinational companies like this. Someone who is earning 100k in Ireland who chooses to move to an island in the Mediterranean where income tax and living costs are less will absolutely see a reduction in their salary. It will be a part of the agreement and contract change these companies will insist on for any employee choosing to do this.

    We might indeed see people moving but it remains to be seen the actual impact and it is definitely not the end of the world scenario some in this thread are masturbating over.

    So in effect, what you are saying is that those who choose to live in a cheaper jurisdiction will be paid less.

    Why hire Pat in Dublin when Miroslav in Slovakia will do the job for €20k less per year? And the person who is currently being paid a higher wage in Ireland won’t be wanted long term - although it’s not that easy to shift permanent staff in Ireland.

    Varadkar is probably the most savvy politician in government at the moment. He sees what’s coming in this sphere. Earlier in the week he was talking about getting staff back into offices early. He knows that the Marginal rate tax payers have been unfairly burdened for decades. But now many of them have the opportunity to rationalise their tax liability out of state. This will mean more or higher taxes on the remainder or really biting the bullet and cutting spending.


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    #77
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Sure, but they are not paying the same as they pay their employees in the states.
    Facebook (and every other company) will alter your salary if you move country.


    As long as the career progression is sustained, I don't really see a problem with that (even if altering salary, the "new" one could still be way above the local IT job market); my guess is there would be employees taking such opportunity, for reasons like ... they have no other ties to Ireland, or might even be in different stage in their lives than when they got the job here.


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    #78
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    This altering salary is nonsense. Become a contractor, set up a a one man/woman company pay 5k insurance, work from anywhere. It's what I've been doing for the last 5 years, noone seems to give a **** as long as the work is getting done. If they do not give me regular increases I will just find another remote gig. It's a market place, they don't get to decide what I should earn


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    #79
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    So in effect, what you are saying is that those who choose to live in a cheaper jurisdiction will be paid less.

    Why hire Pat in Dublin when Miroslav in Slovakia will do the job for €20k less per year? And the person who is currently being paid a higher wage in Ireland won’t be wanted long term - although it’s not that easy to shift permanent staff in Ireland.


    Right so exactly like they can currently already do and have been able to do for years? Did you travel here from the 90s with this argument?


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    #80
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Right so exactly like they can currently already do and have been able to do for years? Did you travel here from the 90s with this argument?

    Able to do so for years? I along with hundreds of colleagues was not allowed to wfh before Covid. The WFH/WFA arrangements only became the dominant mode of working in the past 15 months. Most of the people I work with do not want to come into the office and several staff in my department work overseas. So, it simply wasn’t a choice for a large number of people in the work force. It is now.

    As for jacking off all over the thread, I see where the OP is coming from. About time the welfare lifers got fed food stamps and clothing vouchers. At some point, an Irish government will have to say enough and make the tough decisions on spending because the tax take won’t cover it.


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Able to do so for years? I along with hundreds of colleagues was not allowed to wfh before Covid. The WFH/WFA arrangements only became the dominant mode of working in the past 15 months. Most of the people I work with do not want to come into the office and several staff in my department work overseas. So, it simply wasn’t a choice for a large number of people in the work force. It is now.

    As for jacking off all over the thread, I see where the OP is coming from. About time the welfare lifers got fed food stamps and clothing vouchers. At some point, an Irish government will have to say enough and make the tough decisions on spending because the tax take won’t cover it.

    In tech it wasn't hugely unusual tbh. Eg I know developers who worked in Ireland and moved back to Brazil. Basically they effectively contracted but still worked with Irish teams etc. I was offered a role pre pandemic to work from home, didn't appeal to me at the time but it wasn't remotely unusual for them to hire as permanent. Bigger MNCs like dell have been pushing wfh for years. The pandemic simply accelerated it.


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    #82
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,161 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    Able to do so for years? I along with hundreds of colleagues was not allowed to wfh before Covid. The WFH/WFA arrangements only became the dominant mode of working in the past 15 months. Most of the people I work with do not want to come into the office and several staff in my department work overseas. So, it simply wasn’t a choice for a large number of people in the work force. It is now.

    Are you intentionally misunderstanding the very obvious point I was making about your fallacious reasoning??
    Why hire Pat in Dublin when Miroslav in Slovakia will do the job for €20k less per year?

    What was stopping them doing this in the last 20 years?

    Any company in the world who wanted to hire people for less could have done exactly this and in fact many have which is why we have so many indian call centres.

    The moving from an office environment to a wfh system changes nothing about these economics that already existed for over 2 decades.

    IE. If they wanted to pay people less for doing the same job in a different country they could have all along and this changes absolutely nothing. The only difference is some people currently employed here might chose to move to their home countries if allowed. This sytem still will require approval for anyone doing it and the entire company isn't about to decentralise across 8 different European countries and anyone who believes this is beyond clueless to how these companies work.
    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    As for jacking off all over the thread, I see where the OP is coming from. About time the welfare lifers got fed food stamps and clothing vouchers. At some point, an Irish government will have to say enough and make the tough decisions on spending because the tax take won’t cover it.

    Jesus, thats some fierce bigotry you've got going on there.


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    #83
    coastwatch
    Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Right so exactly like they can currently already do and have been able to do for years? Did you travel here from the 90s with this argument?

    Yes, but 15 months of pandemic has made WFH / remote working perfectly normal, and reportedly, more productive. First in the queue for remote working would be Facebook's and Google's european commuters, who would have flown in to Dublin on a Monday morning and back out on a Friday.


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    #84
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Are you intentionally misunderstanding the very obvious point I was making about your fallacious reasoning??



    What was stopping them doing this in the last 20 years?

    Any company in the world who wanted to hire people for less could have done exactly this and in fact many have which is why we have so many indian call centres.

    The moving from an office environment to a wfh system changes nothing about these economics that already existed for over 2 decades.

    IE. If they wanted to pay people less for doing the same job in a different country they could have all along and this changes absolutely nothing. The only difference is some people currently employed here might chose to move to their home countries if allowed. This sytem still will require approval for anyone doing it and the entire company isn't about to decentralise across 8 different European countries and anyone who believes this is beyond clueless to how these companies work.



    Jesus, thats some fierce bigotry you've got going on there.

    I can read and comprehend thanks. I’m disagreeing with you because my experience of the past 15 months tells me so.

    Why couldn’t they have done so in the past 20 years? I’m going to take a shot in the dark here but I’m guessing it’s because we didn’t have a major pandemic that forced most workplaces to devolve and adopt a BCP. Despite options existing for 20 years, they were not taken because what organisation wants to move to wfh/wfa over night, which is what happened in March 2020 - a forced change.

    Now that systems are tried, tested and relied upon in foreign jurisdictions, businesses and individuals will have more confidence in engaging in extra territorial working relationships. This in turn enables a business to be more expansive in its approach to hiring. A phallic prognosis.

    So I’m a bigot in your esteemed opinion. You’ll be calling me a racist next. Long term layabouts should get the bare essentials. Nothing more.


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    They will hire for the Dublin office but those employees won't have to be living here or paying income taxes here. Get it?

    If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system


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    #86
    coastwatch
    Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

    Does the same apply to "contractors"?


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    coastwatch wrote: »
    Does the same apply to "contractors"?

    I couldn't say for everyone but it did for me when I was self employed.


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    #88
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

    Except for PRSI and maybe USC?
    Might be wrong but thought that is due in country of residence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #89
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Realistically it’s unlikely non Irish people will stay here if they can work in their home countries.
    I think our economic model is under huge threat now, corporate tax rate is almost certain to rise and remote working will pose another threat.
    As a city Dublin is in for a very uncertain few years. Thousands, probably tens of thousands, of people who came to the city for jobs are going to have the option to leave. People who in previous years would have been arriving to take jobs now will be encouraged to work remotely.
    There are pluses for Dublin, it’ll help its congestion and the overpriced property market, but the effect over 20 years mightn’t be as positive for the city in isolation.


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    #90
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    Realistically it’s unlikely non Irish people will stay here if they can work in their home countries.
    I think our economic model is under huge threat now, corporate tax rate is almost certain to rise and remote working will pose another threat.
    As a city Dublin is in for a very uncertain few years. Thousands, probably tens of thousands, of people who came to the city for jobs are going to have the option to leave. People who in previous years would have been arriving to take jobs now will be encouraged to work remotely.
    There are pluses for Dublin, it’ll help its congestion and the overpriced property market, but the effect over 20 years mightn’t be as positive for the city in isolation.

    Imagine, Dublin might turn back into a liveable city rather than just another globalopolis. We might not even hit our target of having a hotel on every corner by 2025. Dark times.


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    #91
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Bambi wrote: »
    Imagine, Dublin might turn back into a liveable city rather than just another globalopolis. We might not even hit our target of having a hotel on every corner by 2025. Dark times.

    Fully agree it is a balls of a place at the moment, grand for people who work in Google and are single, but is way too expensive for most ordinary people and has been for nearly 20 years.
    Belfast is a worse balls of a place, for different reasons. But in its defence an ordinary fella can raise a family there. The fact is Belfast is two hours away, Dublin’s economy and property sector are not as robust as people think they are.


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