Evangelist preachers in America

Kewreeuss

Why do they ask for money?
What do people expect from the preacher for the money they have given them?
Are evangelicals just Christians, but not Catholic or Protestants as we know them here?

looksee

Evangelicals are Christians and Protestants. The cults that preach looking for money are no more Christian Evangelicals than loan sharks are bank managers. They are chancers lining their own pockets by offering the same kind of populist nonsense that Donald Trump offers (though he is certainly not a Christian, regardless of how many bibles he waves around).

Because it is possible to start a 'Church' in the USA and automatically get all kinds of tax benefits without any proof of sincerity or even ethics it is wide open to abuse, and there does seem to be a lot of people who are very happy to go along with it, and give their money.

one world order

They teach people the bible and offer the message of salvation to whoever wants to hear the gospel. Most people today don't want to know God or what Christ did for us. Mostly because Satan control's this world and he has an army of demonic entities working for him trying to create a secular world.

However those that recognise they are a sinner and in need of salvation have the bible and pastors teach us the word of God. Many people are therefore saved from been cast down to hell as the holy spirit changes the person from within. This is called been born again and it is why so many people are convicted by God's word in the bible changing them from within.

Kewreeuss

Yes, fine, they teach the bible but why do they always ask for money?
I realise we only hear about the millionaire leaders.
Are there any who live normally in the community, equal to their church members?

happyoutscan

one world order wrote: »

They teach people the bible and offer the message of salvation to whoever wants to hear the gospel. Most people today don't want to know God or what Christ did for us. Mostly because Satan control's this world and he has an army of demonic entities working for him trying to create a secular world.

However those that recognise they are a sinner and in need of salvation have the bible and pastors teach us the word of God. Many people are therefore saved from been cast down to hell as the holy spirit changes the person from within. This is called been born again and it is why so many people are convicted by God's word in the bible changing them from within.

Wow.

one world order

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Yes, fine, they teach the bible but why do they always ask for money?
I realise we only hear about the millionaire leaders.
Are there any who live normally in the community, equal to their church members?

They're the ones that promote the prosperity gospel. They are false teachers and distort what the bible says. There are many wolves that try change what the gospel says to fit the modern world. Preachers that focus more on scripture than nice sounding statements taking out of context is what one should look for and there is many of them.

Peregrinus

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Yes, fine, they teach the bible but why do they always ask for money?
I realise we only hear about the millionaire leaders.
Are there any who live normally in the community, equal to their church members?

Yes, loads. That's pretty much the norm.

You say that they "always ask for money", but the truth is that they don't always ask for money. You just hear more about the ones who always ask for money and that creates a stereotype that predominates in your mind.

Reality is different. The evangelical tradition within US Christianity is very large and very diverse and, while it certainly includes some leaders who "always ask for money", it includes many more who don't.

A lot of pastors/ministers in evangelical congregations are unpaid or are part-time. Full-time pastors are usually paid and, depending on the means of the congregation, the aim is generally to pay them what would be seen as a middle-class salary for the community that they serve.

homer911

There are Evangelical churches/Christians/traditions in both Catholic and Protestant denominations, although more readily associated with Protestant churches. Not all churches, Catholic or Protestant, are evangelical. Someone who is "Evangelical" is someone who acts as a witness to something, with a view to "converting" people, the term has been widely adopted in business eg "Technology Evangelist", "Sig Sigma Evangelist"

In terms of Christian faith, an evangelist is someone who believes that salvation cannot be earned, that it's a gift from God for those who hear his word and respond

http://www.evancat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/what_is_an_evangelical_catholic.pdf

As regards American Evangelicals asking for money - that's the prosperity theology that snakeoil salesmen are pedalling - its only those that dominate the airwaves and the media that you hear about, and they are the ones with the money to do that

looksee

That link about Catholic Evangelicals is very interesting, I was not aware of this movement within the Catholic Church. It does seem as though, while the core principle is the same as Protestant Evangelism (salvation being a gift) much of it is quite separate - in spite of the commendable (imo) aim of finding a meeting of minds with Protestant believers. A couple of really quite controversial ideas in there, in particular the third point in Evangelical Catholics are committed to...obedience to the hierarchy, unless that obedience conflicts with conscience.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

Because it is possible to start a 'Church' in the USA and automatically get all kinds of tax benefits without any proof of sincerity or even ethics it is wide open to abuse, and there does seem to be a lot of people who are very happy to go along with it, and give their money.

That is not unique to the USA. Churches are tax free here also, I believe? Numbers are way down in these churches in the USA. A lot of people (believers) are hoping that the pandemic will help "drain" the Evangelical swamp.

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Yes, fine, they teach the bible but why do they always ask for money?

Bit of a stretch to say that they teach the Bible. I watch some of these services from time to time. I enjoy the music. The sermons are motivational speeches, with a hint of Christianity.

Kewreeuss wrote: »

I realise we only hear about the millionaire leaders. Are there any who live normally in the community, equal to their church members?

You need to separate the televangelists from plain old Evangelists, or budding Evangelists. Many of the last two would have another job, or even another business attached to their church. I wandered into a coffee shop off Elm Street in downtown Dallas a few years ago. Got chatting to the owner, a middle aged man from Kentucky. Turned out the coffee shop was part of the church and the church also owned the parking lot beside the Dart station.

homer911 wrote: »

In terms of Christian faith, an evangelist is someone who believes that salvation cannot be earned, that it's a gift from God for those who hear his word and respond

Many will say that it is a free gift from God.

Kewreeuss

Thank you for the replies.
Mostly I am at a loss for words. I cannot get my head around Catholic evangelism. On the one hand is it like the missions of old? Or on the other hand is it Catholic people, not priests, who want to maybe convert or get people into churches?
As a white straight laced Irish person I wouldn’t be a lover of singing and clapping and dancing in the church.
Since I am influenced by the tv and the papers, I suppose that image is a bit of a cliche too?
I also have difficulty with the language used by the poster one world order. It is very frightening. It is so of the Middle Ages and witch hunts and the inquisition which was one of the darkest periods of the Catholic Church. Since everything is image and marketing today, you are going to have to change the format if you want to get the content out.
As well, what Christianity is being taught? The best thing about Catholicism is the concept of forgiveness, recognising that we are human with emotions who makes mistakes, and not an accumulating weight to be carried around til death, or the denial of pleasure and enjoyment in life, which I get the impression is a strong element of some Protestant churches. I am perfectly aware that the Catholic church has conveniently forgot that over the years, but it is part of the doctrine. People have moved on from the hell and brimstone images, there is more awareness of personal responsibility, without always looking to the churches for guidance.
I also agree salvation is a free gift, up to the individual to avail of it or not.
I haven’t much more to say now, so thank you again for your responses.

Yellow_Fern

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Why do they ask for money?
What do people expect from the preacher for the money they have given them?
Are evangelicals just Christians, but not Catholic or Protestants as we know them here?

The vast majority are not in for the money. Same applies to televangelists. Yes there are some real crooks out there but you can see from average earnings of theology graduates, that you dont go into this area for money. I dont think preachers are except from income tax. The church wouldnt be paying property tax which might be substantial in the US but neither do schools or a vast array of other non for profits. There is an argument for and against this but if you made everyone pay US property taxes, you'd close down every art gallery, every museum and church in historical parts of city centres. You'd be left with countless protected buildings that would be both bankrupt and forbidden from demolition. The same applies to Ireland really with commercial rates. You destroy the city centres if you applied them universally. Before people get too critical of the US, remember there is one charity for every 500 people in Ireland.

Ash.J.Williams

one world order wrote: »

They teach people the bible and offer the message of salvation to whoever wants to hear the gospel. Most people today don't want to know God or what Christ did for us. Mostly because Satan control's this world and he has an army of demonic entities working for him trying to create a secular world.

However those that recognise they are a sinner and in need of salvation have the bible and pastors teach us the word of God. Many people are therefore saved from been cast down to hell as the holy spirit changes the person from within. This is called been born again and it is why so many people are convicted by God's word in the bible changing them from within.

Many of them get busted in really bizarre sexual situations with all sorts

see mod note below

looksee

Mod:

one world order wrote: »

They teach people the bible and offer the message of salvation to whoever wants to hear the gospel. Most people today don't want to know God or what Christ did for us. Mostly because Satan control's this world and he has an army of demonic entities working for him trying to create a secular world.

However those that recognise they are a sinner and in need of salvation have the bible and pastors teach us the word of God. Many people are therefore saved from been cast down to hell as the holy spirit changes the person from within. This is called been born again and it is why so many people are convicted by God's word in the bible changing them from within.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Many of them get busted in really bizarre sexual situations with all sorts

Just for clarity, one world order appears to have been referencing evangelical preachers generally rather than the ones making money on it. Please read the topic/thread rather than just the title before responding.

Ash.J.Williams appears to be referring to the money making preachers rather than preachers in general. Either way some evidence needs to be shown for this sweeping statement which appears to denigrate genuine Evangelical preachers.

Ash.J.Williams

looksee wrote: »

Mod:





Just for clarity, one world order appears to have been referencing evangelical preachers generally rather than the ones making money on it. Please read the topic/thread rather than just the title before responding.

Ash.J.Williams appears to be referring to the money making preachers rather than preachers in general. Either way some evidence needs to be shown for this sweeping statement which appears to denigrate genuine Evangelical preachers.

there far too much evidence to provide, a simple search would provide infinite accounts of saying one thing publicly and doing some absolutely outrageous deviancy privately

Peregrinus

Well, duh. You won't get accounts of evangelical preachers who haven't been detected in sexual or financial impropriety, because "preacher not committing adultery, fraud" isn't really newsworthy. If you're only looking for the sinful evangelicals, those are the only ones you'll find.

Your argument here is essentially the same as an argument that, if a suitably-worded google search turns up lots of accounts of Irish people being convicted of murder, this shows that the Irish are characteristically murderous. No, it doesn't.

micosoft

looksee wrote: »

no more Christian Evangelicals than loan sharks are bank managers. .

Great line. The US is to Christianity what Saudi is to Islam. It's a heretical version of Christianity and interesting to see even the US Catholic church is infected by it. Biden's troubles are with taking on this toxic cesspit of extremism.

Ash.J.Williams

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, duh. You won't get accounts of evangelical preachers who haven't been detected in sexual or financial impropriety, because "preacher not committing adultery, fraud" isn't really newsworthy. If you're only looking for the sinful evangelicals, those are the only ones you'll find.

Your argument here is essentially the same as an argument that, if a suitably-worded google search turns up lots of accounts of Irish people being convicted of murder, this shows that the Irish are characteristically murderous. No, it doesn't.

No that’s a ridiculous comparison, try googling sexual deviants in uefa or scouting compared to evangelical circles not an entire country

Yellow_Fern

micosoft wrote: »

Great line. The US is to Christianity what Saudi is to Islam. It's a heretical version of Christianity and interesting to see even the US Catholic church is infected by it. Biden's troubles are with taking on this toxic cesspit of extremism.

The US is a huge place and there is a lot of religious diversity from cloistered communities of Jews who speak Yiddish to reforming protestants who live through low German. You will find money corrupted churches but it isn't the norm. I am not sure what you mean by extremism but I associate that with people who use violence. The US has a high crime rate but religious violence is absurdly rare. I would apply that across the board. Even in Muslim communities there seems to be far less extremism than say France or Belgium. So no, it is not a toxic cesspool of extremism, if you mean religious extremism.

looksee

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

there far too much evidence to provide, a simple search would provide infinite accounts of saying one thing publicly and doing some absolutely outrageous deviancy privately

Mod: If a simple search would provide evidence then its up to you as the person making the claims to do it.

However discussing sexual deviancy in US preachers is not relevant to this thread, especially vague and unsubstantiated allegations. Everyone please drop this angle of the discussion.

Please do not discuss this warning further on thread.

santana75

It's an interesting discussion, I mean it begs the question: Who can you trust? Jesus did warn that this would happen though, he was very clear when he talked about wolves amongst sheep who would infiltrate the church for their own financial gain. I visited hillsong London two summers ago, just as a matter of interest and they really came on heavy with the money giving. In fact during the entire service the only time any scripture was used was when they were pushing hard on the tithing. It left a sour taste tbh. Not all mega churches in the States are money making machines though. I believe pastor jenzen Franklin to be the real deal, I think Rick warren of saddleback is legit aswell. Every other week though there seems to be some new scandal within the church in America. Maybe money is involved but more often than not its sexual immorality and adultery that takes pastors out. Nothing new, soloman himself was eventually led astray by his (many) pagan wives.

Peregrinus

Megachurches are expensive and, one way or another, most of them are fairly assertive about fundraising because it's either that or shut up shop.

But megachurches are not evangelicalism. They are just one corner of evangelicalism, and a relatively small and recent corner. As a theological movement evangelicalism is huge but, as a movement rather than an organisation, not easy to count. Different understandings of "evangelical" are used by different people for different purposes, but there are a number of different estimates from different sources suggesting that 30-35% of the US population can be considered evangelical Christians. Only a small fraction of those are attending megachurches.

looksee

Peregrinus wrote: »

Megachurches are expensive and, one way or another, most of them are fairly assertive about fundraising because it's either that or shut up shop.
.

Megachurches may well be expensive, but they also have, per church, a mega congregation to pay for them. And in spite of an expensive church building there does seem to be preachers who can also afford luxury cars and houses.

While, in the US, individuals can benefit from their private enterprise churches, it is not at all unusual for churches to be very proficient at separating their followers from their money. In fact several countries have systems where the state collects the money on behalf of the churches, and in Italy at least the tax is mandatory with the tax-payers choosing from a list that includes a number of faiths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

Yellow_Fern

looksee wrote: »

Megachurches may well be expensive, but they also have, per church, a mega congregation to pay for them. And in spite of an expensive church building there does seem to be preachers who can also afford luxury cars and houses.

While, in the US, individuals can benefit from their private enterprise churches, it is not at all unusual for churches to be very proficient at separating their followers from their money. In fact several countries have systems where the state collects the money on behalf of the churches, and in Italy at least the tax is mandatory with the tax-payers choosing from a list that includes a number of faiths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

yet theology graduates have lowest incomes

looksee wrote: »

Megachurches may well be expensive, but they also have, per church, a mega congregation to pay for them. And in spite of an expensive church building there does seem to be preachers who can also afford luxury cars and houses.

While, in the US, individuals can benefit from their private enterprise churches, it is not at all unusual for churches to be very proficient at separating their followers from their money. In fact several countries have systems where the state collects the money on behalf of the churches, and in Italy at least the tax is mandatory with the tax-payers choosing from a list that includes a number of faiths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

The church tax systems that exist in some countries are optional but they would never ever be accepted in the US. It is a European oddity and frankly not relvant to a discussion of televangelists or such.

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

Megachurches may well be expensive, but they also have, per church, a mega congregation to pay for them. And in spite of an expensive church building there does seem to be preachers who can also afford luxury cars and houses.

Sure, there are evangelical preachers who are very well-paid. The question is whether this characterises the evangelical movement as a whole and the answer is: I have no reason to think so. I await evidence.

Fascinating fact of the day: The highest-paid clerics in the US are, or at any rate used to be, rabbis. Here's an article from about 10 years ago reporting that rabbis enjoyed average compensation of $140,000 per annum, including housing allowance. Pastors of megachurches (defined as: congregation in excess of 2,000) earned slightly more: an average of $147,000, but they were only 0.5% of all Protestant churches (so maybe 1.5% of evangelical churches). Average for all protestant pastors was $40,000.

The lowest paid clerics were Catholic priests (average $25,000, but I don't know if that includes the value of housing provided) and Imams (average $30,000, no housing, many holding second jobs).

looksee wrote: »

While, in the US, individuals can benefit from their private enterprise churches, it is not at all unusual for churches to be very proficient at separating their followers from their money.

To be fair, its also not unusual for them to be not very competent at it. Church closures, forced mergers and even bankruptcies are not uncommon. Evangelical Christianity tends not to be characterised by centralised and well-funded denominations. Each congregation tends to fund itself and, if it can't, the congregation has to merge with another, on whatever terms can be arranged, or simply close.

looksee

Yes, I rather carelessly associated megachurches with the money-making guys, and a small amount of research shows this is not correct.

I absolutely accept that the charlatans are not representative of the whole Evangelical movement. There does not seem to be any attempt to control them though, I suppose people are free to give their money to whomever they wish.

bluestrattos

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Why do they ask for money?
What do people expect from the preacher for the money they have given them?
Are evangelicals just Christians, but not Catholic or Protestants as we know them here?

(Last Week Tonight with) John Oliver did a great piece on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg&t=0s

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

Yes, I rather carelessly associated megachurches with the money-making guys, and a small amount of research shows this is not correct.

I absolutely accept that the charlatans are not representative of the whole Evangelical movement. There does not seem to be any attempt to control them though, I suppose people are free to give their money to whomever they wish.

The evangelical movement is very decentralised. A lot of evangelical churches are not members of any denomination at all, while other tend to be members of fairly loosely-organised denominations, in which church government is congregational, bottom-up, rather than episcopal, top-down. Pastors are accountable to their own congregations, rather than to any bishop or national organisation.

The result is that if you have a very charismatic, very dominant pastor whose congregation is in awe of him, he may be subject to very little in the way of effective control.

antiskeptic

It was Benny Hinn (iirc) who said that Jesus Christ was going to appear on stage with him on next weeks show. Can't remember quite how he wiggled out of it on next weeks show.

A fool and his/her money easily parted..

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

Fascinating fact of the day: The highest-paid clerics in the US are, or at any rate used to be, rabbis.

Wouldn't that class as an anti semitic statement these days?

Peregrinus

antiskeptic wrote: »

Wouldn't that class as an anti semitic statement these days?

Only if you think that a community putting resources into ministry is a bad thing.

highdef

one world order wrote: »

They teach people the bible and offer the message of salvation to whoever wants to hear the gospel. Most people today don't want to know God or what Christ did for us. Mostly because Satan control's this world and he has an army of demonic entities working for him trying to create a secular world.

However those that recognise they are a sinner and in need of salvation have the bible and pastors teach us the word of God. Many people are therefore saved from been cast down to hell as the holy spirit changes the person from within. This is called been born again and it is why so many people are convicted by God's word in the bible changing them from within.

Jesus Christ, you are seriously demented!

homer911

highdef wrote: »

Jesus Christ, you are seriously demented!

Ah highdef, yours would be the rocky ground rejecting the seed, as is your right, but even the Devil knows that God exists

highdef

homer911 wrote: »

Ah highdef, yours would be the rocky ground rejecting the seed, as is your right, but even the Devil knows that God exists

For a short moment, I thought you were behind serious but thankfully I realised that you were just jesting.

looksee

highdef wrote: »

Jesus Christ, you are seriously demented!

Mod: highdef you get one warning. Your post is not appropriate to the forum, it is abusive and uses Christ's name inappropriately. Do not post in this thread again.