People with a funny idea of the rules of the road.

mgbgt1978

Spook_ie wrote: »

I have to disagree with you, you're not "Changing" lane you're "Merging" into a lane. Yes you do need to Mirror, Yes you do need to cede right of way but signaling, no real need at all, unless you are indicating that you are about to pull up on the hard shoulder

You can disagree all you like.
But page 144 of RotR says you're incorrect.
Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.

...and that's down as a "must", not "should". I'm sure you know what that means.

Voodoomelon

Nothing worse than trying to merge on to a motorway and some gobeen is in front of you doing 70-80km/h and refuses to go any faster.

A quick snappy merge at 130km/h does the trick. Gives you the option to slide in front most times, give it a touch more welly if required or back off a tad to slot in behind.

1874

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

You can disagree all you like.
But page 144 of RotR says you're incorrect.
Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.

The best practice is signalling imo, at the least its a flashy blinky light that helps get another drivers attention.
Merging driver should match speed and join, cars on motorway should allow cars merge easily.
If they are slightly ahead, I'll let them in, if I am ahead and room to move I'll keep going and let them merge after me.


Some people act like knobs and refuse to allow people to merge even when all are in the best position to do so,



I have had when merging, cars either forcing up past me or trying to, thinking they own the motorway, ie not let me on or try not let me on, even when I'm matching speed. Dicks


Or when on the motorway, people hesitant or slowing looking for somewhere to get in when you are leaving an opening, them slowing down more only makes things worse, unless traffic is heavy/stop start and might suddenly slow or even stop, so I do move out in advance if its suits.

wandererz

wandererz wrote: »

Then you have the people dawdling along behind trucks on a motorway. You are in the outer lane travelling faster to overtake them.

And then boom!
At the very last minute, just as you are behind them, decide to pull out in front of you into the overtaking lane.

And continue at the same slow pace.

It's a game between my spouse & I now.
I'd say I am right about 98% of the time because I'm such a great mind reader.

Some people can only read 5mts of road in front

Ak84

1874 wrote: »

Im not saying its a stupid question, but I am a bit shocked, all the same I agree, it's better to ask/say/query, I think that situation is very plain myself. My reading of the situation is, the cars are both travelling in opposite directions on the same road and want to turn onto the same side road, so the car in its lane coming towards the OP has right of way in that lane over other vehicles, certainly ones coming towards it who want to turn across.
Not sure what you are talking about minor lanes not existing though, in reality they exist, cars coming from them onto a larger road/depending on road markings usually dont have priority over cars on the larger/main road already.





If you were waiting to get onto the roundabout, then while the driver on it should be mindful you exist, they have right of way, you should have stopped if by which you mean you attempted to move onto the roundabout with a vehicle on it already, you really dont sound like you should have moved onto the roundabout at all though.
Dont want to sound preachy, but vehicles on the roundabout have right of way, you shouldnt be ploughing on, they would rightfully expect you not to drive out in front of them.

Although these days, I'd be wary, as I have noticed people have a tendency to drive on and disregard cars right of way that are already travelling on the roundabout, seems to mostly occur on 2 lane roundabouts in my experience.

No. She was 3 yards away from entering the roundabout while I had moved on to it.

greenflash

A had a first the other day driving on the M7: I was cruising along at 120 and approaching convoy of slower trucks. I checked the mirror and saw there was someone coming up the outside lane to pass me so I put the indicator on and hung back from the trucks waiting for the other car to pass so I could move out. As soon as the indicator went on, the driver of the other car stood on the brakes and screeched down to way under the 100 I was doing at that stage. He then pulled up alongside me with the window open giving me every gesture in the book for daring to use my indicator. I guess the accepted procedure is that you pull out as soon as the indicator goes on, if not before, regardless of what's behind you.

The other one making me laugh at the moment is that so many motorway drivers believe they have to go all the way to the end of the merge lane and squeeze through the gap between the end of the dotted lines and the hard shoulder.

tDw6u1bj

wandererz wrote: »

And then boom!
At the very last minute, just as you are behind them, decide to pull out in front of you into the overtaking lane.

I have a theory that it's people who learned to drive long before we had motorways or didn't have any multi-lane roads nearby.
So their concept of overtaking is totally based on single-lane roads and they learned that it's safer to come up behind and begin the manoeuvre at the last minute, because that other lane is oncoming traffic and you might have to pull out.
They don't get that the mind-frame is different for motorway overtaking where you have good visibility, you know there's no oncoming traffic and you should do everything in good time.

CoBo55

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I have a theory that it's people who learned to drive long before we had motorways or didn't have any multi-lane roads nearby.
So their concept of overtaking is totally based on single-lane roads and they learned that it's safer to come up behind and begin the manoeuvre at the last minute, because that other lane is oncoming traffic and you might have to pull out.
They don't get that the mind-frame is different for motorway overtaking where you have good visibility, you know there's no oncoming traffic and you should do everything in good time.

Really? Are you being serious? So anybody who learned to drive back in the time of Fred Flintstone just stopped learning after that, zip, nada. I've passed my test and that's it, this has to be a wind up.

tDw6u1bj

CoBo55 wrote: »

Really? Are you being serious? So anybody who learned to drive back in the time of Fred Flintstone just stopped learning after that, zip, nada.

Some, definitely not everyone and I never suggested it was

CoBo55 wrote: »

I've passed my test and that's it.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but there's a hell of a lot of people who think this way, and I mean across all ages/generations.
There's genuinely a huge number of people who think the driving test is some kind of high standard, not a piece of paper to say "well done, you aren't completely incompetent ", will continue to do the absolute bare minimum behind the wheel without a single second of self-reflection, and think anything more than that is just being silly/fussy. Ah, sure it's grand.

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

He said I should be thankful he doesn't have a dashcam because if he did he'd be reporting me to the Gardaí. He told me to learn the rules of the road. LOL

You should have said to him that you have a dashcam and that you are going to report him and also put up on YouTube, that would quieten him down.

Spook_ie

In relation to all such incidents it's as well to be aware of the wording of the SI relating to driving without reasonable consideration

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/28/section/4/enacted/en/html


It's looks so catchall that a good barrister could probably make a case that both parties were driving without reasonable consideration

Spook_ie

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

You can disagree all you like.
But page 144 of RotR says you're incorrect.
Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.

...and that's down as a "must", not "should". I'm sure you know what that means.

I know what it says, i also know there is no offence of NOT indicating.

Unlike the highway code in the UK which is based on law, the RotR in Ireland are a mishmash of advice and regulations. I really don't know why people trot it out as some kind of gospel when there are no statutes to back it up.

The J Stands for Jay

Spook_ie wrote: »

I can easily over take 2 abreast cyclists on most roads, 3 abreast ( depending on how rapidly they are switching leader ) can be much more of an inconvenience, which is (funnily enough ) exactly what the SI says in relation to inconveniencing

Anyways if you want to argue the finer points of that SI, the whole legal forum will probably await your input with much anticipation.

"I can easily over take Nissan Micras on most roads, Range Rovers can be much more of an inconvenience"

Akrasia

Fast2move wrote: »

It is only by repeatedly enforcing correct driving behaviour and etiquette will people actually change their driving habits. But I have long given up expecting that to ever happen in Ireland

Do you realize that the gob****e in the OP (the fella merging onto the motorway) thought he was doing exactly what you are advocating?

It is not up to individual members of the public to enforce driving behavior on others, not least because half of all drivers don’t know the correct rules to enforce

Akrasia

Just a word of warning, all of this distraction caused by merging vehicles is a significant danger to drivers who are on the motorway

At 120kph your car travels 33 meters per second. If you’re spending several seconds watching a car merging, trying to work out his speed and trajectory and whether he is a risk to you or not, your car could travel over a hundred metres and if there is an incident up ahead of you you might not be aware of it because you’re focusing your attention to the left and behind you

This happened to me years ago, I was traveling at 120kph when someone was merging a little too close for comfort so I checked my mirrors, all clear behind me, there were no cars in front of me for at least a hundred metres so I pulled out to the right hand lane
While I was doing this some guy had decided to stop his car on the overtaking lane of the motorway without even turning on his hazards because he saw a swan in the central reservation in front of him. By the time it registered with me that his car was stopped, it was too late to stop, I couldn’t go left because there was a car that had just merged next to me, so I slammed on my brakes, and went right to the gap between the stopped car and the barrier. Which was when I hit the swan

Spook_ie

McGaggs wrote: »

"I can easily over take Nissan Micras on most roads, Range Rovers can be much more of an inconvenience"

Not really, other than needing to hang back a little further to give a better view.
Unless you're implying that Range Rover drivers drive differently from Micra drivers, if not then both are easily overtaken when necessitated.

The J Stands for Jay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not really, other than needing to hang back a little further to give a better view.
Unless you're implying that Range Rover drivers drive differently from Micra drivers, if not then both are easily overtaken when necessitated.

The RR is wider, similar to two bikes.

stopthevoting

One thing that really annoys me is being behind a car waiting to turn right off a main road, and they stay in the middle of the lane instead of moving over just to the left of the the white line, while waiting for a break in the opposite direction traffic. So while they are waiting to turn they block the straight-ahead traffic behind them unnecessarily.
I don't mean the straight-ahead traffic squeezing past where there is no room, I mean wide roads where the lane is wide enough for two vehicles, and sometimes even has road markings showing what to do.

BrianD3

Akrasia wrote: »

Just a word of warning, all of this distraction caused by merging vehicles is a significant danger to drivers who are on the motorway

At 120kph your car travels 33 meters per second. If you’re spending several seconds watching a car merging, trying to work out his speed and trajectory and whether he is a risk to you or not, your car could travel over a hundred metres and if there is an incident up ahead of you you might not be aware of it because you’re focusing your attention to the left and behind you

This happened to me years ago, I was traveling at 120kph when someone was merging a little too close for comfort so I checked my mirrors, all clear behind me, there were no cars in front of me for at least a hundred metres so I pulled out to the right hand lane
While I was doing this some guy had decided to stop his car on the overtaking lane of the motorway without even turning on his hazards because he saw a swan in the central reservation in front of him. By the time it registered with me that his car was stopped, it was too late to stop, I couldn’t go left because there was a car that had just merged next to me, so I slammed on my brakes, and went right to the gap between the stopped car and the barrier. Which was when I hit the swan

That incident surely backs up the OP's point. You needed/felt the need to expend resources and take action due to a merging vehicle. Meanwhile, up ahead there was a hazard. Maybe the other guy should not have stopped for the swan but certainly he was right to be on high alert. The swan has an excuse for being a hazard, it's a dumb animal, what excuse do merging idiots have.

There is what amounts to a culture of poor merging, reinforced by other drivers jumping out of the way and the RSA's half arsed advice.

Let's apply this to other situations. I am driving along a single carriageway main road and I see somebody up ahead waiting to emerge from a side road and turn left. While I am aware of their presence I don't
a) stop
b) move to the other side of the road to let them out as some sort of "courteous" act
c) expend a lot of my cognitive resources on them

Drivers have to assume a certain level of competence in other drivers and that they have a basic understanding of rules of the road, otherwise, chaos.

Jeju

Was in heavy city school traffic one morning and heard an Ambulance behind,.moved into a left turning lane and stopped as did car behind. Ambulance passed I turned on right indicator started moving out and car behind races out and cuts me off, ended up following the fcuk wit for about 10 minutes at snails pace. Thing is he had an L plate so must be teaching one of his children to drive, although not with him on this occasion.

Dufflecoat Fanny

farmers around my area seem to think the roads are just parking lanes

I managed to get a full license without knowing how to drive on a motorway. I didn't know anything about undertaking or that you are supposed to stay as far left as possible unless you are overtaking. Not allowing learner drivers on the motorway at all isn't a great idea.

storker

DaveyDave wrote: »

There's also an unbelievable amount of people who just don't speed up. Going onto the N3 today at Clonee which is a very long slip, did 60kph the whole way down FFS.

Or worse...drive to the end of the slip road and...stop.

I don't think I've seen this on motorways though, just on dual carriageways.

Mimon

Jeju wrote: »

Was in heavy city school traffic one morning and heard an Ambulance behind,.moved into a left turning lane and stopped as did car behind. Ambulance passed I turned on right indicator started moving out and car behind races out and cuts me off, ended up following the fcuk wit for about 10 minutes at snails pace. Thing is he had an L plate so must be teaching one of his children to drive, although not with him on this occasion.

What's the etiquette when two cars merging at the same time hit into slow traffic and want to move into the overtaking lane ASAP?

If I'm the rear merging car I will always give the front merging car a chance to move out. Often though when I'm the front one the rear car will pull out not giving me a chance even if I'm indicating to move out.

Rude as **** and double whammy again if they proceed to crawl overtaking and hold me up.

Mimon

Another merging one is when there is stopped or very slow moving traffic where people on the motorway.

I will always leave a gap to let cars merge. The amount of people who won't take this gap is amazing as they want to get as far down the ramp as they can to gain 3/4 car spaces. Often they will have to then wait for a gap to open for them

People really are thick on the road.

CoBo55

Mimon wrote: »

Another merging one is when there is stopped or very slow moving traffic where people on the motorway.

I will always leave a gap to let cars merge. The amount of people who won't take this gap is amazing as they want to get as far down the ramp as they can to gain 3/4 car spaces. Often they will have to then wait for a gap to open for them

People really are thick on the road.

Around the airport is terrible for that carry on.

The J Stands for Jay

Mimon wrote: »

Another merging one is when there is stopped or very slow moving traffic where people on the motorway.

I will always leave a gap to let cars merge. The amount of people who won't take this gap is amazing as they want to get as far down the ramp as they can to gain 3/4 car spaces. Often they will have to then wait for a gap to open for them

People really are thick on the road.

In heavy traffic, they should go to the end of the merging lane before merging. Otherwise, they're just wasting the road space and making the congestion worse.

mags1962

I saw a beauty today on the N7 heading back towards Dublin, other car was in the overtaking lane, furthest to the right, doing about 100 kmh's, nothing inside in the other two lanes.
I came up behind moving a little faster, but still no move to the left so I had no choice but to move to the left and under take, glanced over to see the driver with a Dog on their lap, oblivious to everything else going on.
I just kept on driving in the middle over taking lane, with a few cars to my left and nothing to the right with the car i'd just under taken, still in the same lane, disappearing into my rear view.
Keep Left seems to be a myth to a lot of drivers?

xhomelezz

Think car manufacturers can skip implementing indicators on the cars for Ireland. Unbelievable amount of drivers doesn't use advantage of having them installed and unbelievable amount of drivers doesn't see them, when someone else is indicating. Rear view mirrors are used for cosmetic purposes as well.

wandererz

Keep left, pass right.
That's the standard taught in other countries.
Non-existent here.

It is evident in other areas of life as well.
e.g. walking along a footpath. People walking 2 or 3 abreast, taking up the entire footpath. Refusing to make way for others approcaching them from the opposite direction and forcing them to move out of the footpath. I just keep on going and force them to break their clique instead.

Entitled superiority is rife.

wandererz

BrianD3 wrote: »

I don't
a) stop
b) move to the other side of the road to let them out as some sort of "courteous" act
c) expend a lot of my cognitive resources on them

Drivers have to assume a certain level of competence in other drivers and that they have a basic understanding of rules of the road, otherwise, chaos.

Look up defensive driving.
In the US, when drivers are issued a fine, in many states, they have the option of contesting it in court or paying the fine and doing a defensive driving course.
One of the things taught is situational awareness and risk awareness.

CoBo55

This is a great thread, it's covering pedestrians, driving in the US, cyclist's, all we need next are a few Russian road rage videos ( I love watching them)

wildwillow

deise08 wrote: »

Can i throw in cars that are exiting a roundabout stopping to let people cross the road?

There is a roundabout in Clane where the pedestrian lights are a matter of feet from the roundabout exit. So you have entered the roundabout but cannot exit as there are pedestrians in your path with a right of way.

Another on the Monread road where pedestrians have a crossing just at the roundabout exit.

Once one is familiar with the layout one can drive with caution but they are so dangerous.

Mimon

McGaggs wrote: »

In heavy traffic, they should go to the end of the merging lane before merging. Otherwise, they're just wasting the road space and making the congestion worse.

Will make absolutely no difference to the congestion as it is starting up ahead not just at one junction.

djan

storker wrote: »

Or worse...drive to the end of the slip road and...stop.

I don't think I've seen this on motorways though, just on dual carriageways.

That is what you should do if you were unable to merge safely. Can't just barge into a lane just because yours is over.

Can be tricky to get going from that point especially in low powered cars as many people are hesitant to flooring it.

Mimon

wandererz wrote: »

Keep left, pass right.
That's the standard taught in other countries.
Non-existent here.

It is evident in other areas of life as well.
e.g. walking along a footpath. People walking 2 or 3 abreast, taking up the entire footpath. Refusing to make way for others approcaching them from the opposite direction and forcing them to move out of the footpath. I just keep on going and force them to break their clique instead.

Entitled superiority is rife.

I used to edge sideways to accommodate the rude footpath hoggers. Now I just keep my fair amount of space and ready to drop the shoulder to protect myself if they don't move.

A mouthy Nordie who was rabbiting on to his buddy and not giving me any space got sent flying by my shoulder once. Guarantee he will make room for other people in future.

CoBo55

Northern Ireland now:D

Mimon

CoBo55 wrote: »

Northern Ireland now:D

Samuel T. Cogley

wildwillow wrote: »

There is a roundabout in Clane where the pedestrian lights are a matter of feet from the roundabout exit. So you have entered the roundabout but cannot exit as there are pedestrians in your path with a right of way.

Another on the Monread road where pedestrians have a crossing just at the roundabout exit.

Once one is familiar with the layout one can drive with caution but they are so dangerous.

Donaghmede and Blanch have similar set ups. They are fecking dangerous.

BrianD3

wandererz wrote: »

Look up defensive driving.
In the US, when drivers are issued a fine, in many states, they have the option of contesting it in court or paying the fine and doing a defensive driving course.
One of the things taught is situational awareness and risk awareness.

I don't see the relevance of this in response to my post that you quoted. I've already done defensive driving courses and was never advised to stop or move lanes to let vehicles out of side roads.

There is a world of difference between recognising potential hazards/being prepared to deal with them and disregarding fundamental rules of driving and priority because of fear or to be "courteous".

A driver needs to assume some competence on the part of other road users - well maybe not children or cyclists - but definitely other drivers.

micar

People who put their indicator on and thinking they have an automatic right to do their manuvore even it's unsafe.

The J Stands for Jay

micar wrote: »

People who put their indicator on and thinking they have an automatic right to do their manuvore even it's unsafe.

There's a glorious dashcam clip of a car pulling in front of a lorry and getting hit where the car driver gets out and shouts "I had my indicator on!"

mgbgt1978

Spook_ie wrote: »

I know what it says, i also know there is no offence of NOT indicating..

Of course there is.
The "catch all" careless driving offence.

Fast2move

Akrasia wrote: »

Do you realize that the gob****e in the OP (the fella merging onto the motorway) thought he was doing exactly what you are advocating?

It is not up to individual members of the public to enforce driving behavior on others, not least because half of all drivers don’t know the correct rules to enforce

I think the idea that heard mentality or a group behaviour won’t influence others is a bit of a stretch. I agree if Irish people knew how to drive correctly and their understanding of the rules of the road was improved then it will be easier to influence other drivers that are not so well educated

Spook_ie

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Of course there is.
The "catch all" careless driving offence.

And also applies to the catch all situation of not actively avoiding a collision by either driver and despite your protestations there isn't a "no indicating" offence

mgbgt1978

You're confusing me quoting the RSA saying you "must use your indicator" with the odd statute you look at.
I never said it was illegal not to use an indicator when changing lanes . I simply said that the RSA say you must use it when changing lanes.
They use the word 'must' a lot in the RotR, but that's obviously just the RSA making random suggestions.
Just because there isn't a specific statute concerning something doesn't mean that you are untouchable.

Look at it another way. If you fail to indicate when merging on to a Dual carriageway during a driving test it's a Grade 2 Fault.

tDw6u1bj

Spook_ie wrote: »

And also applies to the catch all situation of not actively avoiding a collision by either driver and despite your protestations there isn't a "no indicating" offence

Are we still not addressing how you're making these arguments while your signature is a picture making fun of people for not indicating?

Spook_ie

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

Are we still not addressing how you're making these arguments while your signature is a picture making fun of people for not indicating?

My sig shows cyclists the correct use of hand signals (if you think that's making fun then shame on you) not the pointing at the road for 0.75 seconds that seems to be the norm for right/left turns and the non existant use of the signal for slowing or stopping

Martin567

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Look at it another way. If you fail to indicate when merging on to a Dual carriageway during a driving test it's a Grade 2 Fault.

Do driving tests have motorway driving now? That must be a fairly recent change.

A N plate driver nearly got me killed last week. Was on a bit of road that's a small bit bendy but nothing major. She was crawling along at 50kmph when the limit was 80. Came to a straight stretch and she was still doing 50, maybe touching 60. I decided to overtake her. As I was I could see a car in the distance coming in my direction but very far away and in no danger. As I was just passing this lady's driver door she put the boot down and floored it. I couldn't believe what she was doing. I should have been well in and past this car when I got worried about the oncoming car. I managed to get in and it was a very close shave. What goes through people's minds in this situation? Could have caused a serious crash. Driving for 50kmph for miles beforehand but when I go to overtake they floor it...