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Is is Martin scorcese universally acknowledged as the worlds greatest director?

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Arghus wrote: »
    All I can say is that I disagree.

    And that's grand.
    Arghus wrote: »
    I think there's more to the films portrayal of Goth and Fiennes performance than just a paper thin villain.

    I don't think Schindler's List is flawless either. It is emotionally manipulative, aware of its own supposed high mindedness and a bit pat in its final conclusion. But I think it transcends those aspects and is genuinely powerful.

    There is nastiness in Casino for sure - the head in the vice, the hammer, the being buried alive, the pen in the neck - it's chilling and horrible, but equally there's no burning piles of corpses, matter of fact summary executions or people being shot dead at random from a balcony at breakfast.

    I think there's a point to that as well. Casino's violence is, in some respects, worse on the surface - you really hear the guys head crack in the vice - but there's a coldness and clinical quality to the onscreen death in SL, which, for me, makes it even worse and more genuinely harrowing. Death can happen at an instant, up close, or at a distance, for no reason at all and most of the time no-one blinks an eye because that's just the way it is and human life doesn't mean anything in these circumstances. I find that more disturbing than the flashes of brutality we get in Casino.

    Look, I don't want to give the impression that I don't like 'Schindler's List'. The Blu sits on the shelf and I've seen it numerous times since I first saw it in the pictures in 1993.

    But for me, it suffers from the same problems that nearly all Hollywood holocaust films do. It's a blunt force, highly embellished, over wrought, button pusher, complete with stock characters (you disagree of course) and a very black and white view of things (no pun intended). But that doesn't mean that it isn't a great film on its own merits and one that's well directed and acted within its framework. But for my money, something like 'The Grey Zone' would have it beat in so far as its subject matter is concerned.

    As regards to the violence, don't let my comment on the nature of it in either film to be a watermark of some sort. I mention it only as an illustration of my tongue in cheek remark about the "enjoyability" of 'Casino'. Both films deal with casual and disturbing violence in a matter of fact way and I would wonder at the stability of someone who would enjoy such things. But with 'Casino' you can sit back and let go a bit. 'Schindler's List' can be a little too high in its own, as you say, "supposed high mindedness" and that can take a feather out of its cap, as it were.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭pioneerpro


    Muppet Man wrote: »
    would tarrantino get a look in at all? Pulp fiction one of my all time favourite movies.

    As a screenwriter? Maybe. As a Director he's a fanboy for better or worse - but rarely a cinematographic trope-maker (bar needle scene in Pulp Fiction or possibly the toaster scene in Pulp Fiction).

    His value lies in his value as acting as a pulp composite of 4 generations of directors before him - being particularly influenced by a heady mix of exploitation movies and classic french cinema (Au revoir les enfants led to the naming of Reservoir Dogs due to a malapropism by a customer).

    That said, I will maintain the whole bar scene from start to finish here as one of the best 10 minutes in Cinema of the last 20 years. From concept to framing to payoff it is one of the most loving tributes to an audience from a 'popular' Director in years without resorting to fan-service.

    I can't find the full clip - which you are *way* better off for watching through - but this will serve as a placemark. Really, its from the entrance to the bar and the disruption of the pastoral scene with the card game and the new father (he was only one day from retirement!) with the first few uneasy silences onward that one of the great edge-of-your-seat scenes unfold.



    Plus by god can the man get a performance out of Christoph Waltz.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Muppet Man wrote: »
    would tarrantino get a look in at all? Pulp fiction one of my all time favourite movies.

    Personally, no. Quentin's best film is still 'Reservoir Dogs', with 'Pulp Fiction' and 'Jackie Brown' following up. Everything else he's done, he's scuppered in some way, in spite of the fact that there are usually brilliant things in every one of his movies.

    Tarantino, for all his skill and talent, is far too wrapped up in pointing his fingers at the audience and saying "Did you see what I did there, wasn't that kwel?"

    I get disappointed every time I watch a Tarantino movie, with the exception of the three mentioned above. I nearly threw something at the screen when 'The Hateful Eight' turned from an exciting drama into a shitfest in the second half and the denouement of 'Once Upon a Time in Hollywood' was just bloody stupid. There's no other way to put it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    I'd rate the Coens above Tarantino.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I get disappointed every time I watch a Tarantino movie, with the exception of the three mentioned above. I nearly threw something at the screen when 'The Hateful Eight' turned from an exciting drama into a shitfest in the second half and the denouement of 'Once Upon a Time in Hollywood' was just bloody stupid. There's no other way to put it.


    He hasn't done anything of great worth since the Kill Bill movies.


    But I have to disagree, I was pretty miffed with Once Upon a Time... until the last act. It was so outrageous in a good way.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭pioneerpro


    Tony EH wrote: »
    and the denouement of 'Once Upon a Time in Hollywood' was just bloody stupid. There's no other way to put it.

    Very very hard to reconcile the stunning bit with the little girl actor and DiCaprio earlier in the film, with the end sequence. Plus the Jackie Chan bit was unbelievable cringe. Pity as there were some standout performances early on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Muppet Man


    Wow... tough crowd :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    pioneerpro wrote: »
    As a screenwriter? Maybe. As a Director he's a fanboy for better or worse - but rarely a cinematographic trope-maker (bar needle scene in Pulp Fiction or possibly the toaster scene in Pulp Fiction).

    His value lies in his value as acting as a pulp composite of 4 generations of directors before him - being particularly influenced by a heady mix of exploitation movies and classic french cinema (Au revoir les enfants led to the naming of Reservoir Dogs due to a malapropism by a customer).

    That said, I will maintain the whole bar scene from start to finish here as one of the best 10 minutes in Cinema of the last 20 years. From concept to framing to payoff it is one of the most loving tributes to an audience from a 'popular' Director in years without resorting to fan-service.

    Plus by god can the man get a performance out of Christoph Waltz.

    There are two scenes in 'Inglorious Basterds' that are just brilliant. The opening, with Waltz and the bar scene you mentioned. They are excellent examples of writing a tense and engrossing scene in a movie. Absolutely captivating.

    The rest of that picture, however, is utter shite and clearly illustrates Tarantino's immense problems as a director.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭pioneerpro


    Arghus wrote: »
    I'd rate the Coens above Tarantino.

    Indisputably.

    Millers Crossing, Fargo and Buster Scuggs as a trio (and in that order) could win that argument against Tarantino's back catalogue imo.

    Others would argue that O Brother alone would do the trick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    From outside Hollywood, Bong Joon Ho is one to keep an eye on as to where his career goes. Memories of Murder(in particular), The Host, Snowpiercer, Mother, and Parasite are all outstanding works. Okja was a bit of a lowlight. Hope he doesn't move into the English language too much as I think the Korean context is where he really shines.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Yurt! wrote: »
    He hasn't done anything of great worth since the Kill Bill movies.


    But I have to disagree, I was pretty miffed with Once Upon a Time... until the last act. It was so outrageous in a good way.

    I enjoyed the ultra violence, but, at the same time, I thought it was a missed opportunity.

    Up until that point I thought OUATIH had been a surprisingly melancholy and thoughtful - for latter day Tarantino - film from him. It was still cartoonist, but there was an ennui or something running through it that felt different, deeper, than a lot of his post Jackie Brown stuff and then - bang - it all finished up with OTT violence, same as all the recent others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭pioneerpro


    Yurt! wrote: »
    From outside Hollywood, Bong Joon Ho is one to keep an eye on as to where his career goes. Memories of Murder(in particular), The Host, Snowpiercer, Mother, and Parasite are all outstanding works. Okja was a bit of a lowlight. Hope he doesn't move into the English language too much as I think the Korean context is where he really shines.

    Korean cinema going from strength to strength since Oldboy. Minari a lovely addition this year. Okja very boring tbh.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Arghus wrote: »
    I'd rate the Coens above Tarantino.

    Only Joel directs though? Right?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭pioneerpro


    Brian? wrote: »
    Only Joel directs though? Right?

    Aye, but Tarantino writes so I think it's a reasonably fair comparison to compare the Coens as a unit in this context when discussing the end-product of their movies. I'd wager that when Tarantino is writing certain scenes he already has them mentally storyboarded with appropriate shots already 'borrowed' from genre movies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Predator is arguably the first mainstream Hollywood movie to address the AIDS crisis, a good six years before philadelphia.
    What?

    Predator was obviously a critique of the overbearing bureaucracy in the defunct Austria-Hungarian Empire


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    pioneerpro wrote: »
    Korean cinema going from strength to strength since Oldboy. Minari a lovely addition this year. Okja very boring tbh.

    I think Sympathy for Lady Vengance is my favourite Korean film. But I haven't been keeping up lately

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    pioneerpro wrote: »
    Aye, but Tarantino writes so I think it's a reasonably fair comparison to compare the Coens as a unit in this context.

    Fair enough. I would rate the Coens way above Tarantino myself. He has some great films but also some real stinkers.

    And absolutely nothing in the same league as No Country for Old Men, which is an absolute masterpiece of a film.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    pioneerpro wrote: »
    Indisputably.

    Millers Crossing, Fargo and Buster Scuggs as a trio (and in that order) could win that argument against Tarantino's back catalogue imo.

    Others would argue that O Brother alone would do the trick.

    If you did a top 10 Tarantino and Coen brothers films, the first 5 would all be Coen brothers I think.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What?

    Predator was obviously a critique of the overbearing bureaucracy in the defunct Austria-Hungarian Empire


    Thought it was about a man's impaired relationship with his father and childhood abandonment issues, but maybe that's a total misread.

    Funny how two people can see the same movie and come away with completely different interpretations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭storker


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Thought it was about a man's impaired relationship with his father and childhood abandonment issues, but maybe that's a total misread.

    I thought it was about the changes to traditional gender roles brought about by the French Revolution.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Brian? wrote: »
    Only Joel directs though? Right?

    They seem to both direct/write/edit on their projects with no real clear distinction between them.

    Having said that Joel is directing an upcoming movie solo, which is the first one of his career.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Muppet Man wrote: »
    would tarrantino get a look in at all? Pulp fiction one of my all time favourite movies.

    He's definitely in the top 10, nobody makes films as good as Pulp fiction anymore. Theirs probably nobody alive that loves films more than QT. James Cameron would also make the top 10 mainly due to Terminator 1 & 2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    pioneerpro wrote: »
    Korean cinema going from strength to strength since Oldboy. Minari a lovely addition this year. Okja very boring tbh.


    They have a strict quota system where only a limited amount of screens can show non-Korean movies. The US hate it and have been pressuring the Korean government to abandon it in trade deals with no success. Large Korean corporations are major investors in the national movie industry (and cultural output generally) also.

    The net effect is that it's one of the few countries that screens hasn't been overrun by Hollywood dross killing the local movie industry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Brian? wrote: »
    If you did a top 10 Tarantino and Coen brothers films, the first 5 would all be Coen brothers I think.

    For me it would be almost the opposite, Fargo is the only great Coen film.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    Brian? wrote: »
    Fair enough. I would rate the Coens way above Tarantino myself. He has some great films but also some real stinkers.

    And absolutely nothing in the same league as No Country for Old Men, which is an absolute masterpiece of a film.

    Yep, "No Country for Old Men" is a real knockout, I agree. It is a totally enthralling picture in my opinion. I may be wrong, but I think it will age well, because it manages to play with the clichés in an artful way.

    I was disappointed with "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"

    The topic was promising, but fell flat. It could have been a great movie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Greyfox wrote: »
    For me it would be almost the opposite, Fargo is the only great Coen film.




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,841 ✭✭✭buried


    Stanley Kubrick for me. Every single film he made is just so brilliantly made and crafted. Kubrick's films also have the genius effect of incorporating the audiences different biases and emotions into his motion picture creations. Especially the later works. Different people in the audience get different reactions and emotions to what is being portrayed on the screen. For example, a good 70% of 'The Shining' for me is a total black comedy.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,977 ✭✭✭NewbridgeIR


    Great thread.
    Scorsese directed my favourite-ever film Taxi Driver and a bunch of other classics namely After Hours, The King Of Comedy, Goodfellas & Raging Bull.

    For Hitchcock, I tend to go back to the less celebrated works now - like Frenzy, Family Plot, The Trouble With Harry, Suspicion, Rebecca & Notorious.

    I rate Robert Altman up there, had a great four in a row with The Long Goodbye - Thieves Like Us - California Split - Nashville while The Player & Short Cuts are two of my favourite '90s films.

    Richard Linklater had a brilliant start with Slacker & Dazed and Confused. Not so sure about what followed.

    David Lynch consistently hits all the buttons so is still my top choice - Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, Wild At Heart, Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me and Mulholland Drive are fantastic works.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Kaybaykwah wrote: »
    Yep, "No Country for Old Men" is a real knockout, I agree. It is a totally enthralling picture in my opinion. I may be wrong, but I think it will age well, because it manages to play with the clichés in an artful way.

    I was disappointed with "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"

    The topic was promising, but fell flat. It could have been a great movie.

    What about the Big Lebowski, Raising Arizona and Miller's crossing?

    I would class O Brother Where Art Thou as a great.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭RulesOfNature


    No one here is yet to cite John Ford yet as the greatest director. He is Irish and considered by Bergman and Welles to be the greatest director, period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    The opening scene alone of Once Upon Time in the West is better than anything Martin Scorsese has done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭Mecrab


    He has had my unwavering respect ever since he called out those Superheroes movies for the bollocks they are.


    I will say though, Gangs of New York was absolute muck. Mean Streets makes up for it though.

    Marvel is the best thing in modern cinema.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Mecrab wrote: »
    Marvel is the best thing in modern cinema.

    By what measure "best"? Genuinely curious

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭RulesOfNature


    Brian? wrote: »
    By what measure "best"? Genuinely curious

    If he just means commercial success, then undoubtably yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    No one here is yet to cite John Ford yet as the greatest director. He is Irish and considered by Bergman and Welles to be the greatest director, period.

    Born in Cape Elizabeth, County Maine.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭RulesOfNature


    Born in Cape Elizabeth, County Maine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ford

    Read his biography. He is full blooded Irish descended from Irish royalty.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mecrab wrote: »
    Marvel is the best thing in modern cinema.

    get-out.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,977 ✭✭✭NewbridgeIR


    No one here is yet to cite John Ford yet as the greatest director. He is Irish and considered by Bergman and Welles to be the greatest director, period.

    This is an excellent set - my favourite BD label.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭pavb2


    buried wrote: »
    Stanley Kubrick for me. Every single film he made is just so brilliantly made and crafted. Kubrick's films also have the genius effect of incorporating the audiences different biases and emotions into his motion picture creations. Especially the later works. Different people in the audience get different reactions and emotions to what is being portrayed on the screen. For example, a good 70% of 'The Shining' for me is a total black comedy.

    I remember watching Barry Lyndon for the first time the story, characters, settings costumes and music make the film a work of art


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    ^
    If there's a single weakness to 'Barry Lyndon', it's Ryan O'Neil. How he got the gig I'll never know. Although he grates on you less and less as the movie plays out.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Tony EH wrote: »
    ^
    If there's a single weakness to 'Barry Lyndon', it's Ryan O'Neil. How he got the gig I'll never know. Although he grates on you less and less as the movie plays out.

    It just shows how great the film is that I can ignore his horrible Irish accent.

    I saw Barry Lyndon in the Savoy screen 1 as part of JDIFF a few years ago. It absolutely blew me away on the big screen. I'd only ever watched on tv before.

    Ryan O'Neill did a Q&A as well, he's an odd fella

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,841 ✭✭✭buried


    pavb2 wrote: »
    I remember watching Barry Lyndon for the first time the story, characters, settings costumes and music make the film a work of art

    Barry Lyndon is my favourite film of Kubrick's. Its just so brilliant and immersive. There are parts of that story towards the final acts of the film, they are so emotional, and they are so effective to go with it because Kubrick literally has your mindset entwined with Lyndon's, almost as if you were him in that story, that all this stuff could have happened to you if you were in the same position. No heroes, no villains, its just life as it could and will happen to everybody.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,661 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    +1 For Barry Lyndon.

    I know it's a renowned movie, but it's still slightly underrated I think. It doesn't have the recognition of 2001, Dr Strangelove, The Shining, Clockwork Orange or Full Metal Jacket. I know several people who'd consider themselves film buffs who have never watched it. But, I think its reputation is gradually increasing all the time.

    I can never fully decide if Ryan O' Neal is crap or perfect in the movie. He feels like a bit of a blank at times, but that seems true to an aspect of the character, that he's an unknowable chameleon, a deceptive opportunist, and he's not really bad in any scene where he has to deliver a performance to sell it.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Muppet Man wrote: »
    would tarrantino get a look in at all? Pulp fiction one of my all time favourite movies.
    Used to confuse him with Robert Rodriguez since they work together.

    El Mariachi is one of my favourite no-budget films

    Peter Jackson's Bad Taste is another


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    No love for william friedkin ???
    The French connection, sorcerer, to live and die and la……killer Joe !!!!

    And cruising !!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,977 ✭✭✭NewbridgeIR


    No love for william friedkin ???
    The French connection, sorcerer, to live and die and la……killer Joe !!!!

    And cruising !!!

    And The Brink's Job - great fun


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    And The Brink's Job - great fun

    Is it actually ? I haven’t seen it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Brian? wrote: »
    It just shows how great the film is that I can ignore his horrible Irish accent.

    I saw Barry Lyndon in the Savoy screen 1 as part of JDIFF a few years ago. It absolutely blew me away on the big screen. I'd only ever watched on tv before.

    Ryan O'Neill did a Q&A as well, he's an odd fella

    It doesn't take from the film too badly and everything else is damn near perfect. But still, how the hell did that happen? I know O'Neal was hot stuff on the back of 'Paper Moon', but really.

    The supporting cast all tear him apart, even the minor roles, although I do think he does well with respect to Redmond Barry's personality (he's a bit of a knob).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭RulesOfNature


    No love for william friedkin ???
    The French connection, sorcerer, to live and die and la……killer Joe !!!!

    And cruising !!!

    Friedkin to some seems like a pastiche of French New Wave movies.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Tony EH wrote: »
    It doesn't take from the film too badly and everything else is damn near perfect. But still, how the hell did that happen? I know O'Neal was hot stuff on the back of 'Paper Moon', but really.

    The supporting cast all tear him apart, even the minor roles, although I do think he does well with respect to Redmond Barry's personality (he's a bit of a knob).

    I've no idea how he got the part, I seriously doubt it was because he was popular at the time. It would Bennett un Kubrick to pick someone because of popularity.

    Redmond Barry is a cad and a bounder of the highest order. But a relatively soft one. O'Neill plays that brilliantly

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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