Employer wants us back on site🙁

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, that word “ guidelines”, they are for guidance rather than a requirement.

It's amazing how many don't get that

Larbre34

Couldn't have said it better myself ^

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Urgh again.

Employer DO need to follow them.
You can make a complaint to the HSA if your employer does not follow them.
You're right that they're not laws, in that there are no civil or criminal charges.

However the HSA can bring an employer to court for failing to apply it's directives regarding COVID guidelines.

Educate yourself.

Completely illogical statement that defeats itself.

If there's no criminal or civil law, what are you brought to court on?

Consider me educated enough to know the legal system.

Larbre34

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It's amazing how many don't get that

They are called guidelines because there are justifiable exceptions to various provisions, as we have seen over the past 16 months.

Bringing back office staff on a full time basis in the short term is not one of these. The HSA will skewer employers that try it.

Bigmac1euro

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

.
You’re going to get the fools over time doing 4 days a week and then it will become a competition who’s in the office the most and we’ll all be back before you know it.

If this is implemented properly there won't be a desk for those fools/boot lickers to sit at.

Padre_Pio

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Completely illogical statement that defeats itself.

If there's no criminal or civil law, what are you brought to court on?

Consider me educated enough to know the legal system.

For failing to comply with the HSA ruling.

You can find information here https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/covid-19_coronavirus_information_and_resources/

But you're seriously mistaken if you think COVID guidelines can be ignored.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It's amazing how many don't get that

Sure, it's like people saying that "Theory of Evolution" is only a theory and therefor not true.

HGVRHKYY

Any companies/managers forcing employees who can effectively carry out all work from home back into this office at this point, when we're clearly going well with the case numbers and vaccine rollout, are scumbags. You can tell there are some micromanaging middle managers on here with some of the reactions. If someone's been working from home since last March, they should be left continue until they're vaccinated at least which should happen by around August

Start looking for other jobs that actually treat their employees decently and specifically state the lack of WFH as the reason when leaving

Bobeagleburger

The horse has bolted regarding WFH. It'll be used by employers as a recruitment incentive. A hybrid approach will be the norm Imo.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

For failing to comply with the HSA ruling.

You can find information here https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/covid-19_coronavirus_information_and_resources/

But you're seriously mistaken if you think COVID guidelines can be ignored.



Sure, it's like people saying that "Theory of Evolution" is only a theory and therefor not true.

I don't think you understand the legal system. I'll ask again, if there's no civil or Criminal law, what are you being summoned to court for breaching?

You didn't link to any HSA finding by the way. You linked to a generic advise page.

No, it's not like that at all. Again, guidelines are not legally binding. There's no need to try and compare to anything else. Guidelines is best practice, not enforceable requirements.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

They are called guidelines because there are justifiable exceptions to various provisions, as we have seen over the past 16 months.

Bringing back office staff on a full time basis in the short term is not one of these. The HSA will skewer employers that try it.

Nope, that's not the legal or general understanding of the word.

You can't be brought before a court unless you have breached legislation.

Has the HSA for any legislation to rely upon in this regard? That's what they will need to bring a case.

Manic Moran

I don't know. Reading the language of the "Work Safely Protocol", https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/Publications/Work-Safely-Protocol.html , the language includes a lot of "Will" and "Shall" not "Should" or "are advised to". That indicates some form of regulatory authority, possibly vested in the HSA by legislation.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/return_to_work/returning_to_work_and_covid19.html certainly indicates that HSA has authority to shut down workplaces which are not following the protocol.

Manic Moran

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't know. Reading the language of the "Work Safely Protocol", https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/Publications/Work-Safely-Protocol.html , the language includes a lot of "Will" and "Shall" not "Should" or "are advised to". That indicates some form of regulatory authority, possibly vested in the HSA by legislation.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/return_to_work/returning_to_work_and_covid19.html certainly indicates that HSA has authority to shut down workplaces which are not following the protocol.

No one has said the HSA doesn't have powers. I specifically asked what section of law if the poster claims that it's neither civil or Criminal. It has to be one of them!

That doesn't change that the document itself is a guide book only. It in itself carries no enforcement powers or obligations.

It's pretty straight forward, to enforce something requires a law. Without a law, it can't be enforced. The HSA have powers but none of them relate to wfh as the government hasn't granted them additional powers.

It's no different to the pubs selling takeaway pints or international travel. Advised against doing so, legally allowed to until they eventually banned the travel

Dav010

Larbre34 wrote: »

They are called guidelines because there are justifiable exceptions to various provisions, as we have seen over the past 16 months.

Bringing back office staff on a full time basis in the short term is not one of these. The HSA will skewer employers that try it.

They are called “guidelines” because they are guidance or advice, they are not binding or legally enforceable rules. In the op’s case, I would be confident a pharma company producing medications would categorise themselves as an essential service, therefore if protocols are in place (op confirmed this), there won’t be any skewering to be had.

Rather than keep repeating the same thing, maybe you would link to the legislation which you think would be used to prosecute an employer who brings employees back to work while having safety protocols in place.

Wanderer78

wicklow_hunter wrote:

Employer sent out a mail and wants us back on site. I’ve been on site 3-4 times since the pandemic began. However senior management are banging the ‘back to office’ drum full time.

Sounds like fairly normal behaviour from such an employer, shur they have never given a sh1t about employees, best of luck with it

Triangle

Foggy Jew wrote: »

Sorry - but this is absolute tosh. I’m a Civil Servant. In March 2020 we were plunged into WFH. Before the pandemic, there would have been committees, steering committees, sub committes, working groups, project management groups and God knows what else formed to assess whether WFH was feasible. But with no warning, we were all tossed into working from home. And guess what? The business of government went ahead. Social welfare payments were made, planning applications were considered, pension applications were dealt with..... Life went on. The public were well served. By Civil Servants sitting in their spare bedrooms or kitchen tables. Working remotely with no access to printers or scanners. I think these civil servants, mostly lower paid, deserve a round of applause for keeping the show on the road in very difficult working environments. DISCLAIMER. I am a Civil Servant.

Took twice the length of time for me to get some paperwork. 2 months for a sheet of paper.
It's not the rosey picture you're painting in all departments.

it's harder to get things done with people wfh (public or private). There's also more downtime with IT issues not to mention it being less secure with remote workers.

The chan chan man

TP_CM wrote: »

Wouldn't have a leg to stand on is a bit far. What you're talking about is someone who is getting their job done from a place which is better for the environment, better for commuters, better from a pandemic perspective and better for their mental health. Vs what exactly, a control freak who wants to bin all of that just so they can keep an eye on them.

Your boss wanting his staff working in the office is not a control freak... everyone seems to think they’re entitled to work from home now. We have 3 new graduates in the office the last year who have learned nothing because there’s no one senior there to teach them. Roll on return to the office I say and lets get things moving again!

Mike Murdock

jackboy wrote: »

I know from working for a multi national that the quantity and quality of work being carried out by most at home is rubbish. I’m not surprised companies are trying to get people back.

Well I work for an MNC and that is demonstrably not the case with us. People are starting earlier and staying online later.

Thor

I'm seeing alot of companies jumping the gun and starting to push getting folks back into the office already. It is a bit mad their already making the push but it was expected from some companies. Other business will be smart and make it a choice, making those in the office feel better about being there, rather than a bunch that felt forced- regardless of if its genuine or not.

Also just for that stating the obvious. If the companies are doing everything responsible in the office (keeping a distance, wearing mask etc,) What is the point of being in the office? everyone that doesn't want to be there will stay away from each other, which could cause other issues in the work place.

My other concern is that public transport is still operating at reduced figures, wasn't the Luas massively over packed recently and nothing happened because of it - can you imagine tons trying to get to work. Companies need to be aware that travel might be more complicated for their staff and putting even more pressure on them to get to work in the morning is just them being tone deaf. Some will say it shouldn't be their concern, but sure we are all in this together, so there is no playing that card anymore.

Putting the push for more remote working, I was hoping to see a smarter play at reducing start times. Work from home for the first 2-3 hours in the morning in some offices, so that it can reduce the morning rush in traffic and public transport. The idea that everyone needs to be in the office for 8-9am should not be the case anymore. Let it be a choice. It's really not that hard. Performance is down to the individual and should be treated that way.

irelandrover

The chan chan man wrote: »

Your boss wanting his staff working in the office is not a control freak... everyone seems to think they’re entitled to work from home now. We have 3 new graduates in the office the last year who have learned nothing because there’s no one senior there to teach them. Roll on return to the office I say and lets get things moving again!

I think this is a big one. We had a new employee start 9 months before the pandemic and they were up to speed after 6 months. We had an employee start 1 month before the pandemic and they are still not up to speed.

Obviously that is anecdotal, i would state that i am doing my work from home and meeting all my targets but the simple fact is that this employee isnt getting the training they need.

Outkast_IRE

jackboy wrote: »

I know from working for a multi national that the quantity and quality of work being carried out by most at home is rubbish. I’m not surprised companies are trying to get people back.

I work in an international engineering consultancy and its record productivity and profits by any metric, backed up by hard figures and facts at the year end in April. Everyone working from home for a full year now.

ginoginelli

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I work on a team. We all share a workspace and to our knowledge, none of us across 4 teams working 24/7 have gotten or transmitted covid.

In fact only 3 people tested positive in the entire building and that's 100+ staff sharing one kitchen,3 cars and utensils.

And my auntie smoked all her life and never caught cancer and my uncle never wore a seatbelt when he drove and never crashed. :rolleyes:

Unsubstantiated anecdotes prove nothing.

Dav010

ginoginelli wrote: »

And my auntie smoked all her life and never caught cancer and my uncle never wore a seatbelt when he drove and never crashed. :rolleyes:

Unsubstantiated anecdotes prove nothing.

Does that apply to the “I work better at home” anecdote?

Thor wrote: »

. Performance is down to the individual and should be treated that way.

It does when you are self employed.

When you are employed, your job description/location is outlined in your offer of employment. I know legislation was to be enacted which required employers to consider requests for wfh, but it fell short of giving the employee an entitlement to wfh.

dogbert27

The OP didn't say what his role is in the pharma company.

It's mid-June now. Most pharma companies have a shutdown period in the first 2 or 3 weeks of July to get all necessary maintenance and projects implemented before starting up again for production so if he is in a department that is needed to do that work then he will be required to be there at this time.

Not everything can be done from home.

Thor

Dav010 wrote: »

Does that apply to the “I work better at home” anecdote?



It does when you are self employed.

When you are employed, your job description/location is outlined in your offer of employment. I know legislation was to be enacted which required employers to consider requests for wfh, but it fell short of giving the employee an entitlement to wfh.

I just meant in terms of people stating working from home productivity is rubbish and its a reason companies are pushing to get them into the office. Performance is individual and should be treated as such.

Some might work better from home with less distractions, not feel worse about staying a tiny bit late, as they don't have tor travel and feel less tired over all from traveling and being in the office.

Ultimately as I said, make it a choice. Companies are far better off if the people in the the office are the ones that actually want to be, and vice versa.

Flinty997

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I work in an international engineering consultancy and its record productivity and profits by any metric, backed up by hard figures and facts at the year end in April. Everyone working from home for a full year now.

Won't make any difference in a lot of places. Demonstrating facts with hard figures and stats often makes people more obstinate to do things their way against all logic.

I'll be surprised if our office isn't mostly back in the office this time next year even though we've had people wfh and remotely for years before Covid.

bucketybuck

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The OP feels they are rightly at a greater risk of contracting COVID as a direct result of this.

The OP just doesn't want to go back to work and is dressing that up as a public health concern.

Personally I think people playing that card would want to be very secure in their position.

Outkast_IRE

Flinty997 wrote: »

Won't make any difference in a lot of places. Demonstrating facts with hard figures and stats often makes people more obstinate to do things their way against all logic.

I'll be surprised if our office isn't mostly back in the office this time next year even though we've had people wfh and remotely for years before Covid.

Our place has already started the engagement with employees and its looking like 2 days per week in the office , but nobody going to be actively monitoring it. As we are engineers some days we are onsite or meeting at clients offices so pretty much impossible to know where everybody is at the best of times.

wicklow_hunter

wicklow_hunter wrote: »

They don’t care about my well being. But they have this corporate culture of caring for patients with medication they supply, it’s all about caring for others but when it comes down to it they don’t care less. I’ve realised Your just a number...cog in the corporate wheel.

Tbf, you should have realised that years ago. Companies are not your family and bosses are not your friends.

The time has come for you to ask if your job is worth what it's asking of you, and if it isn't, what job can you get that will give you what you want.

TP_CM

The chan chan man wrote: »

Your boss wanting his staff working in the office is not a control freak... everyone seems to think they’re entitled to work from home now. We have 3 new graduates in the office the last year who have learned nothing because there’s no one senior there to teach them. Roll on return to the office I say and lets get things moving again!

That sounds like mgmt who have failed to adapt. People are so obsessed with the most ideal option that they are willing to throw away an amazing new way of living simply for that. They want parents to spend less time with kids. They want people to go back to Centra rolls. They want people to drop kids off at creches from 7:30am - 6:30pm all over again. That was all fine and well when there was no alternative.

Open a group chat every morning for sporadic questions, have 3 calls daily with video cameras, have better documentation for new joiners with FAQs and frequent mistakes made. Set up video tutorials on Teams which are recorded and can be looked back upon. There's a list the length of my leg of ways to help junior staff.

It may not be ideal depending on your industry, and particularly if mgmt aren't very creative, but if it's 80-90% effective and reduces road traffic, increases family time, allows people to save money and eat more healthily, it's simply a no-brainer. And if people want to go back because they can focus better, don't like their family, or helps them disconnect in the evening, by all means give them the option.

People are learning instruments, languages, completing degrees, all online. There is no excuse for those 3 newbies having learned nothing in a full year. Tell your mgmt to wake up and do their job. God, anyone can be a manager if all they need to do is replicate the model which they inherited. They need to stop lamenting the way things should be or used to be.

If they want you back you'll probably have to go back, not much you can do unfortunately. Could you look for another job if they are available?

I'll never be going back to office full-time, will probably go hybrid. Lots of our staff will never be coming back at all, will WFH full-time. Covid has been a game changer, the days of full-time office work are gone for me forever and if they pushed it I'd leave.